Raven Guard Insignia

[Kua]

Let’s ignore the “changing battlefield markings for purpose of enemy confusion” (aka paint what you want) stuff for a moment.

 

As I remembered it (from about 5th E, I guess):

Squad type colour (not company) on right shoulder trim, squad numbers and chapter heraldry as usual.

 

Insignius Astartes:

Company number on left kneepad (the shoulder trim stays blank black on the image despite the company not being the 5th and the squad being tactical).

 

Now I looked through the 7th Ed Codex:

Company (!) colour on right shoulder (trim or squad type symbol), squad number on kneepad, left but if already used by some markings then right.

 

 

Did I miss some changes?

Why do the happen so frequently?

Isn’t half the fun in collecting SMs getting the insignia and heraldry right?

And what version do you use and, more importantly, why?

[Claws and Effect]

I use the 7th edition version.

 

Why? I wanted my main force to be a Battle Company so I had access to all units. I chose the 3rd Company for a few reasons.

 

- If I wanted to use the Raven Guard's only official GW special character I had to use it.

 

- I wanted a splash of something other than black or white to make my models pop a bit, so that eliminated the 5th Company.

 

- I hate yellow with a passion and it sucks to paint, so no 2nd.

 

- Red looks better than green to my eye when paired with black. Which is weird because green is my favorite color. I'd love to use orange, and will probably add a tactical squad from 6th in my force.

 

The change from unit type to company color probably arose from a couple sources.

 

1) They established that the Raven Guard are a Codex adherent chapter and unlike the Iron Hands and White Scars they don't have cultural symbols to use.

 

2) It makes more sense on the battlefield. With squad type colors protecting your tanks is as simple as "Look for yellow trim and shoot them!". If everyone has the same color pad trim it's harder to pick out combat roles in the chaos of battle.

 

I actually like the change. It demonstrates nicely that the Raven Guard said "Sure Rob, we'll do it your way.", and went and did their own thing with it anyway.

 

Don't forget they still have an element of uniqueness in the Veterans having white arms (mine don't).

[Kua]

Yeah, entirely white arms don’t look good to me either.

 

Anyway:

The new markings, more precisely the company instead of unit type colour on the right shoulder trim, is what blue Rob suggested.

To me the change looks like a loss in individuality for the Ravens.

Am I wrong?

[Race Bannon]

Back in 3e the right trim noted squad type witht the squad symbol. Green for Tactical, Yellow for Dev ... Black for Vet. The redundancy always annoyed me. No notes on squad number or company designation though. The white arms were for "commanders", or at least one commander suggested in the article. When Shrike came out with white arms, I think the community thought, "okay, leaders get white arms".

 

Then 5e Codex dropped with a white-armed dreadnought and Tactical marines with red trim, strongly suggesting the trim is for Company color and white arms for veterans. Recall this was the edition that introduced VV and Sternguard. The rest is history.

 

Yet my personal preference is to follow the 7e version because it makes the most sense to me. It's Codex style without being so strict. I too will deviate from the white arms for Vets though and will save them for "commanders" only. I want a black painted army and the veteran slots have a lot of saturation of units.

[NiceGuyAdi]

I jumped into Raven Guard after a very long hiatus from the hobby, and wasn't up on fluff to any great degree. So I took SCC's Raven Guard as my main point of reference, which went with the old-school squad-type-by-shoulder-trim style. I was already committed to it before I found out this had changed to Company designation.

 

It actually freed me up a little to create some backstory for my army: they're drawn from all Companies as a volunteer task force sent to look into Corax's fate in the Eye of Terror, having been told not to expect to return in any great number. Being harried around the edge of the Eye well beyond the Cadian gate has left them at the point where all men have to be pooled by squad type and sent into battle in ad hoc squads.

 

It's actually made a practical benefit in that as time goes on, all my heavy weapons Marines will have yellow Devastator trim, so they can mix and match with Tacticals to make up Tactical or Devastator Squads as needed, whilst staying true to the backstory.

[Bedouin2]

Whenever I get around to doing Tacs, Devs and Assault squads, I plan on using the unit symbols found in the Index Astartes book. It's the ones they used during the Great Crusade, and i'll paint the symbols in the Company color. Luckily they are just basic shapes, and I prefer it over the shoulder trim being painted.

 

Plus I just want my army to have Great Crusade references. You can get even further in with the FW Horus Heresy books (which I haven't read yet but have seen pictures). Captains have white helms, Vets have a white strip, Talon Leaders have a white helm with black stripe (my veteran Sgts will have this), Veteran Sgts have white "beaks" (my regular sgts will have this), etc etc.

 

I'll provide pics later if ya want.

[Biscuittzz]

 

1) They established that the Raven Guard are a Codex adherent chapter and unlike the Iron Hands and White Scars they don't have cultural symbols to use.

 

 

Dunno if you follow RG in 30k but they have plenty of cultural symbols in that era. Polynesian/ Maori themes are prominent so I guess it would be cool if they were continued on into the 40k era.

 

It's an idea for those who want to try something out I guess.

[Claws and Effect]

The Carcharodons seem to have taken the Maori theme in 40k.

[That Guy Matt]

So here's what I do.

 

Right shoulder trim denotes company.

Squad designation is on the right shoulder.

Squad number is on the left knee.

Sergeants have a white face plate.

Captains (Shrike) has a white helmet.

Veterans have a white shoulder with a black chapter badge.

 

As for why:-

 

I never liked the shoulder trim for squad type. i think it makes the army look ununified. I also believe that whatever your opinion on Ultramarines or Guilliman, most Chapters are largely Codex adherant, Raven Guard included and I like to represent them as such.

 

I've never liked the full white arms on veterans so I wanted something similar but toned down.

[Valaas]

The Carcharodons seem to have taken the Maori theme in 40k.

 

 Think the Carcaradons are Raven Guard successors? (or at least rumored to be).

 

There's some nice shapewase boarding shields with Maori designs that I think my RG ship to ship breachers will use.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Valaas

[Kua]

Where?

[Valaas]

Where?

 

There's the recently designed RG Storm Shields:

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/9VV4RDUSF/raven-veteran-storm-shields-x10?optionId=62947534

 

and the Maori design Slab Shields:

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/RD5KBVFJ2/10x-tribal-marine-boarding-shields-w-hand?optionId=62523236

[Kua]

Ah, the stormshields everyone seems to be ordering. ^^

Didn’t associate them with Maori.

[Valaas]

Ah, the stormshields everyone seems to be ordering. ^^

Didn’t associate them with Maori.

It's the 2nd link that has the maori / tribal designs on the slab breacher shield's

[Kua]

Hm. And what are the typical elements of a maori tribal design?

Because it could be quite interesting for possible freehand motifs on cloaks and armour, for this purpose I was looking yesterday for some pics but they mainly looked like nicely ordered lines, nothing really specific.

[Race Bannon]

In the Forge are a few Carcharodon or Legion threads that are quite stunning.  I can't copy/paste on this PC but they are there and I think those artists get the idea.

[Claws and Effect]

Check out Malchy's Pale Faces, or something to that effect.

 

He specializes in Night Lords, Raven Guard, and Carcharodons.

 

Pretty stunning work and he really nailed the Maori motif.

[Kua]

Another question concerning RG colouring:

 

Are our librarians all blue and techmarines all red (apart from the left shoulder)?

 

I imagine to remember a variant where the character takes the chapter colours and his function’s specific colour reduces to the right shoulder, but I can find no source suggesting this any more.

[Valaas]

Don't know what the correct fluff answer is......

 

I went down the route of a red helm and right shoulder pad for the tech marine pilot of the Stromtalon, as I felt a full bright red marine, just didn't fit with the rest of my RG, I will probably do something similar when i get a Librarian, just restrict the blue to the right shoulder and maybe the helm/psychic hood.

[Race Bannon]

The only fluff source is from an Index Astartes article on Librarians where it showed a dude in TDA. He was all black with a blue tabard - I can't copy/paste now but a search for Raven Guard Librarian will reveal the pic. Anyway, even in that article there are no "rules" to how they color the armor. Although a Codex adherent Chapter, clearly the RG takes liberties with dictated insignum. Maybe Librarians take that to a personal level?

 

Same with Techmarines, yet I think their ties to Mars may push them to keep more red?

 

Having said that, for my 5th Co, I decided the Chapter heraldry mattered more, so only the right arm was colored for their position. I mean, the armor speaks for itself ^_^

[Claws and Effect]

Librarians and Techmarines decide the color ratio of their armor themselves. You could have 2 techmarines in the same company with different ratios and both would be valid.

[Race Bannon]

Thank you for reminding me:

[Biscuittzz]

In the Forge are a few Carcharodon or Legion threads that are quite stunning.  I can't copy/paste on this PC but they are there and I think those artists get the idea.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327601-malchys-white-faces-knight-and-shark-bannerman-up-0907/

 

This is the one I believe.

[Claws and Effect]

That's it.

[Kua]

Ah, I thought you were speaking of this thread but wasn’t sure if there were others, too.
 
After seeing it to the end, it seems curious that he uses more sharp edges in the patterns, same as the linked boarding shield does, while google shows more rounded forms.
A shame the Maori theme invites to covering big spaces with the tribal pattern (as Malchy correctly does) instead of just small parts for more decency.
Another thing I noticed is his painting of black. Without the tribals it would stay flat and boring with some cheap edge highlighting, considering his level of painting shown on the other colours. He too probably doesn’t consider black an easy colour…
 
About Libs and Techs: Yes, the old IA article probably was the source, thx @ Race.
I imagined an actual text passage though, but my It was wrong.
 
Edit:
After going through IA and codices one more time, with the WS and Salamander Lib in the IA and the UM Techmarine in the 5E Codex all doing this only-right-arm thing. This creates the impression of being a rule, a set alternative, not an exception.
 
The Libs, indeed, have no word about blue colour in their IA article, but the Techs have about red:

 

In deference to their training on Mars and the close bond that exists between Techmarines and the Adeptus Mechanicus, Techmarines traditionally repaint their armour red, though one shoulder guard will always remain in their Chapter's colours.

Techmarines understand better than anyone the risks inherent in angering the war spirit of battle gear and are careful to ensure that their Chapter symbol remains clear and unobscured. Though the Iron Priests of the Space Wolves, despite their training on Mars, exhibit a fiercely independent streak by retaining their original armour colour throughout.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Kua