Primarch Book 5 - Lorgar: Bearer of the Word

[Mellow]

Thank you.

[HeritorA]

  On 8/19/2017 at 4:10 PM, LetsYouDown said:

I think just the Limited Edition physical copy is out. With these Primarchs series books, the iBook, normal hardback and audio come out 2 months later, so October?

It is for release in October and I think hardback would be at BLW

[Petitioner's City]

So, now it's out generally, what did people think of this?

[HeritorA]

  On 10/4/2017 at 5:26 PM, Petitioner's City said:

So, now it's out generally, what did people think of this?

One of the best stories of zealotry and idolatry mixed in one bag and burned to ashes on the steps to Godhood. I think that covers it in general ;)

[Izlude]

I ordered it from Amazon (US) and I think it is being shipped next week. I have reservations since ADB really defined Lorgar with The First Heretic, Betrayer, etc which is not only some of the best HH stories but really has brought life to Lorgar. 

 

It is not so much that Gav is doing it (while not as consistent as ADB, I have enjoyed many of his works) since ADB really defined him. Was it a decent read?

Edited October 5, 2017 by Izlude

[Roomsky]

About halfway through now, really enjoying it. Haven't read 13th Legion or Angels of Darkness yet, but from what I've read by Thorpe its definitely his best so far. 

 

His discussion of religion (it helps that its not a real religion) isn't reductionist dross (The Last Church), so that helps.

[HeritorA]

  On 10/5/2017 at 3:33 PM, Roomsky said:

About halfway through now, really enjoying it. Haven't read 13th Legion or Angels of Darkness yet, but from what I've read by Thorpe its definitely his best so far. 

 

His discussion of religion (it helps that its not a real religion) isn't reductionist dross (The Last Church), so that helps.

Splendid points :) Even big bad me like 'Lorgar' 'to the point'. Through I dislike Primarch serie.

Lorgar is based on 3 concepts: zeal, idolatry and faith.

[veterannoob]

Halfway there, enjoying it and how Colchis life is broken down. between Kor Phaeron's model and this book I'm even more convinced I hate him and he's Dick Cheney, still preserved and kept alive by pure hate 28,000 years from now! haha

[Roomsky]

Lorgar: Bearer of the Word

 

            Since its inception, The Primarchs series has advertised itself as a closer, more personal look at the primarchs and their role before the Heresy itself. And while I can’t really dispute that, each has been marred by something conceptual, rather than qualitative.

 

 

Roboute Guilliman gave a look into the primarch’s past and ideals, and then (literally!) buried it under a mountain of orks. Leman Russ, while showing the Wolf Lord at his prime, placed import on action over character, and managed to paint a more interesting picture of The Lion over Russ himself. Magnus the Red was confident in its own skin, but added little more than seeing Magnus and Perturabo’s friendship first hand, which didn’t really reveal much about either of them. Perturabo came closer in focus, but Guy Haley struck me as going through the motions until the murder of Olympia, signaling that perhaps it should have occupied more of that tome.

 

So who descends from on high to deliver unto us a book that feels no compunction but to illuminate more about its titular primarch?

 

 

Gav Thorpe, apparently.

 

I know, it surprised me too.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The biggest failings I could find with this book were not active detriments, but more the absence of its positives. That said, let’s look at pros first:

 

Lorgar and Kor Phaeron

 

            I’ve realized that while there is much about Gav’s writing I take issue with, character interaction is not among them. Any time characters figuratively sit down and talk to each other, I find myself totally enraptured. As so much of the book is dominated by the Bearers of the Word in conversation, it can be more than a little gripping.

 

 

            Kor Phaeron is, as surprise to no one, a total bastard, but seeing his thoughts as he molds Lorgar add a depth to the character never displayed when he’s by his lonesome. He may win the award for Galaxy’s Worst Dad, but he is a father to Lorgar. His worries and his pride are intrinsically tied to personal gain, but also to Lorgar himself. Every swell of genuine pride he feels for the young Urizen goes that much further to humanize him. Also appreciated were the distinctions between what exactly Kor Phaeron is greedy for. He wants power, not glory. He doesn’t seek adulation but control, the ability to exert what he believes is right. Luxury is a pleasant side effect, of course, but never once does it seem something he actively craves.

 

Chocolate being the exception, apparently.

 

            Lorgar too is done a service by this tale, especially by the ending, but we’ll come to that momentarily. One of my few issues with ADB’s excellent Word Bearers saga is that while Lorgar’s fall is handled very well, his transition from well-meaning zealot to someone so at ease with what Chaos has always struck me as a tad quick. Here though, we see a portrait of Lorgar not merely as someone who craves the truth and is willing to learn, but for whom timidity is a convenient guise in acquiring such things. Everything goes Lorgar’s way, not by chance or the machinations of others, though Lorgar may allow such illusions to persist.

 

            And that final scene. Wow. Kor Phaeron is of course immortal thanks to his role in modern canon, but if ever there was a way to hand the guy a defeat, that was it. His creeping realization that he controlled so much not through his own work, but through Lorgar’s own convenience, was more savage than Guilliman ripping out the guy’s heart could ever be.

 

Of Colchis and The Powers

 

            The philosophy of Colchisian religion was actually quite fascinating. Stepping away from the old I will use this book to posit against x modern religion, Gav crafts a familiar but unique cult for Kor Phaeron to be a part of, that somehow manages to be understandable in its cruelty. The idea that people occupy their social standing because the gods will it is an understandable outlook in the context of such all-consuming faith, and succeeds in highlighting Kor Phaeron’s hypocrisy very well: slaves deserve to be slaves, but he doesn’t deserve to be outcast. The word is always absolute unless it applies to him, it seems.

 

 

            Colchis itself is established as interesting and alien from the get go, with the little key at the book’s beginning outlining the sheer length of days and years on the desert world. Slaves are kept and abused, but if Kor Phaeron’s little camp is any indication, the quality of life between classes is largely the same unless one dwells within a city proper.

 

 

            It would have been easy enough to describe the world as simply “sand and worship,” but Gav goes the extra mile in world building, as is generally his forte.

 

 

The Book of the Word

 

Just a brief section here, but I really liked how Gave wrote this as a sword of pseudo-religious text. The translation at the beginning sets the stage, and the format works startlingly well with Gav’s dry, matter-of-fact prose. As we got to Lorgar’s full-blown crusade at the end of the story, it is written with such objective simplicity that it calls to mind passages from real world holy books. Detail grows sparse and deeds become the focal point. After all, who would doubt mighty Lorgar could accomplish such things? The how is unnecessary.

 

 

 

The Absence of Pros

 

            The positives section was a little short, but I want to hammer home that being Lorgar’s book, a focus on Lorgar is really all that matters. It paints an intimate picture of the primarch, and weaves him into a messiah without being insulting to the subject matter, so already we have a winner of a book.

 

            The issues, as mentioned before, stem from the absences of the above, namely: Lorgar and Kor Phaeron, and Colchisian world building. While I can forgive the latter passages as a stylistic choice, it does not change that Lorgar and Kor Phaeron being apart, both from each other and the reader, significantly diminishes the book’s impact. Many latter chapters feel as though the book is spinning its wheels, hurrying through necessary exposition before the next discourse between the protagonists. This is best demonstrated by Lorgar’s surprise return to The City of Grey Flowers amidst his crusade. While the previous onslaught of “and then this and then this and then this” had become more than a little rote, I was suddenly yanked right back in for the short conversation.

 

 

            The book is light on action, but I feel with Gav any impersonal war-making is too much. I’ve ragged on the guy before and I think his dry delivery of combat is one of my biggest gripes with him, though I do appreciate how little this book actually contains.

 

            Colchis too suffers a bit as the story draws to a close, with Lorgar jumping from place to place with such rapidity that we never really get to know them. A few details are thrown out but they pale when compared to what one learns about the Cholchis’ climate, nomadic tribes, and customs early on in the book. Again, I appreciate Gav’s brevity, but if the war was going to be fought at an arm’s length I would have preferred more time devoted to the world, and even less to the battles themselves.

 

Conclusion

 

            While hardly a perfect book, I think Lorgar: Bearer of the Word earns top spot in this series so far, something I have to admit caught me totally off guard. For Lorgar to be covered by an author I have many issues with, as well as after my favorite Bl book in The First Heretic, Bearer of the Word manages to fulfill almost all of my expectations for it, and exceed them in several places. If this upward trend continues, we’ll have more than a few must-reads on our hands before the series is through.

 

 

My arbitrary numerical rating is 8/10

Edited October 9, 2017 by Roomsky

[b1soul]

Not sold on Thorpe...been burned too many times

[R_F_D]

  On 10/9/2017 at 3:17 AM, b1soul said:

Not sold on Thorpe...been burned too many times

I'd give it a go. I'm half way through and loving it. It might be that it's because it's not about Space Marine and/or fighting. The thread about Gav has some points which hit the nail on the head for me but there isn't the dialogue which jars for me in his HH works.

Edited October 9, 2017 by R_F_D

[Kelborn]

A couple of days ago, I've decided to buy the entirety of the series, thus making it the first "bigger" series to be completely in my bookshelf and the first I'll be finishing.

 

After reading your review, I'm tempted to say that this was not a bad decision. ;)

 

Eager to see Lorgar at my local bookstore. :)

[Indefragable]

Just finished the audio book version (first Primarchs novel I’ve finished...also have Perturabo which is up next).

 

It was an interesting tale, to say the least. I want to pick at things and and criticize a few parts, but specifics don’t come readily to mind, which I suppose is testament to the tale all together.

 

A few points:

 

-basically everything Roomsky said above

 

-one thing to be clear about is that this is essentially a biography. It read (listened) quite differently to most of the other BL works I’ve encountered. There are strengths to draw from that, but something to be aware of going in.

 

-the world-building sections really are the highlight. It is often said that people are products of their environment, and the amount of up-front effort that goes into explaining how the planet (and thus life on it) works can not be overrated. Colchis is world of ritual: the demands its solar cycles place on people make structure, routine, and collective gathering an intrinsic part of survival.

  Reveal hidden contents

...and it makes one character’s notion of “freedom” that much more jarring...if everyone needs a tent to survive the sun, and tents are assigned according to stature, how does “freedom” work? Wouldn’t everyone crowd the best tents all the time? You can see how deeply the world effects the human mind.

. This goes on to inform so much of the flow of events. It is easy to understand the importance of prayer time when there are moments in a day when you are literally hiding from the sun, et al.

 

-likewise, my personal favorite part is how it depicts human behavior, especially en masse. Religion is the vehicle for this, but Thorpe does a good job not bogging the reader down in the specifics of Diary or Unnamed Philospher 37.5. Rather, much of the story focuses on the actions people and groups of people take when motivated. Whether religion, sports, or cooking, some people will be a bit too zealous, others will do precisely the minimum needed to get by, and a great many fall somewhere in between.

 

-...the above becomes especially fascinating when you introduce an element like a Primarch. There is a great scene (that I personally found humorous) where it is revealed that he has essentially stirred up every possible human reaction

  Reveal hidden contents

some think he’s a messiah, others the the devil, others think he’s a prophet, others a demon, others want to worship him, others want to kill him, and some want to worship him by killing him because he is the messiah which is actually a guide for the devil, etc...

. I think more than any other piece of BL writing, this one really shows the power of charisma. You feel ripples of his impact throughout the world so intricately described. When there are so many competing thoughts, it is easy to see how a singular point of view, delivered with such earnesty and empathy can basically floor you.

 

-a few gripes:

 

—Kor Pharon: while this book really rounds out his character, it still wasn’t enough. There is still a level of comic-strip evil villain to him. His character is supposed to be the manipulator of all time, but there is still an element of “blow up the world because that’s what bad guys do” to him. The “grand spark” of his character is still missing. We get how events and circumstances have motivated him, but there’s still a lack of depth there. I will have to elaborate more at some point

[Sulemain]

Having read the book over lunch, goddam Kor Phaeron is a prick who had a terrible impact on Logar's life and personality. 

Having said that, the end left me wondering if Logar's life would have turned out differently without him. 

[Indefragable]

  On 10/10/2017 at 4:28 PM, Sulemain said:

Having read the book over lunch, goddam Kor Phaeron is a prick who had a terrible impact on Logar's life and personality.

Having said that, the end left me wondering if Logar's life would have turned out differently without him.

Yea that’s both the triumph and tragedy of the book. It leaves the reader needing more, but not entirely in a good way.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Kor Pharon is an absolute bastard who represents the worst of human impulses. What’s interesting is how—as Roomsky pointed out— he craves power, but not necessarily glory. He doesn’t need to be in the limelight. And being cast out is a driving motivator for him, yet we don’t get details on what motivated him enough to get thrown out. Thorpe describes just how devoted he is to the powers, but we never learn where that source of devotion comes from. Did he actually commune with Papa Nurgle or something? That’s a key detail that gnaws at me and distracts me.

 

Many religious figures throughout human history have had transformative moments. Likewise, many political/etc... figures have had key “sparks” in their life that set them on the course of being :cuss-es. Kor Phaeron, for all we know, was born a :cuss and is a :cuss for the sake of :cuss-ery. That’s the greatest weakness of the book to me...

 

...however, the book still success because ultimately it is about Lorgar and Lorgar’s own manipulation of the great manipulator. So for the story to work, we just need to know how mean Kor Phaeron is, not necessarily why. Knowing the why would take it to a whole other level.

[Fire Golem]

Well, I’ve just ordered it.

[1ncarnadine]

  On 10/10/2017 at 5:11 PM, Indefragable said:

 

Yea that’s both the triumph and tragedy of the book. It leaves the reader needing more, but not entirely in a good way.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Kor Pharon is an absolute bastard who represents the worst of human impulses. What’s interesting is how—as Roomsky pointed out— he craves power, but not necessarily glory. He doesn’t need to be in the limelight. And being cast out is a driving motivator for him, yet we don’t get details on what motivated him enough to get thrown out. Thorpe describes just how devoted he is to the powers, but we never learn where that source of devotion comes from. Did he actually commune with Papa Nurgle or something? That’s a key detail that gnaws at me and distracts me.

 

Many religious figures throughout human history have had transformative moments. Likewise, many political/etc... figures have had key “sparks” in their life that set them on the course of being -es. Kor Phaeron, for all we know, was born a and is a for the sake of -ery. That’s the greatest weakness of the book to me...

 

...however, the book still success because ultimately it is about Lorgar and Lorgar’s own manipulation of the great manipulator. So for the story to work, we just need to know how mean Kor Phaeron is, not necessarily why. Knowing the why would take it to a whole other level.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Well said. Thanks for putting something to word that has been nagging me about the book as well - that what this book really needed was to explore Kor Phaeron's motivations to finally humanize him. That said, I still really enjoyed this one. But if it had done that I think it would have been really exceptional instead of just quite good.

[Sulemain]

  On 10/10/2017 at 5:11 PM, Indefragable said:

 

  On 10/10/2017 at 4:28 PM, Sulemain said:

Having read the book over lunch, goddam Kor Phaeron is a prick who had a terrible impact on Logar's life and personality.

Having said that, the end left me wondering if Logar's life would have turned out differently without him.

Yea that’s both the triumph and tragedy of the book. It leaves the reader needing more, but not entirely in a good way.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Kor Pharon is an absolute bastard who represents the worst of human impulses. What’s interesting is how—as Roomsky pointed out— he craves power, but not necessarily glory. He doesn’t need to be in the limelight. And being cast out is a driving motivator for him, yet we don’t get details on what motivated him enough to get thrown out. Thorpe describes just how devoted he is to the powers, but we never learn where that source of devotion comes from. Did he actually commune with Papa Nurgle or something? That’s a key detail that gnaws at me and distracts me.

 

Many religious figures throughout human history have had transformative moments. Likewise, many political/etc... figures have had key “sparks” in their life that set them on the course of being -es. Kor Phaeron, for all we know, was born a and is a for the sake of -ery. That’s the greatest weakness of the book to me...

 

...however, the book still success because ultimately it is about Lorgar and Lorgar’s own manipulation of the great manipulator. So for the story to work, we just need to know how mean Kor Phaeron is, not necessarily why. Knowing the why would take it to a whole other level.

 

 

I do think more exploration of his background would be good, yes, and it wouldn't take much.

 

What strikes me as interesting is a) how, when it all comes down to it, his actions and Logars' ended up not being very different (both conquering zealots of varying sincerity, b) you really get the impression that Logar isn't a very good general and c) that Logar and the Emperor have A LOT in common. 

[mc warhammer]

are there any clues as to kp's real feelings about the emperor? was he ever open to the idea in the way lorgar was, or was he always chaosy and just using lorgar's vision and faith?

[Indefragable]

  On 10/11/2017 at 12:34 AM, mc warhammer said:

are there any clues as to kp's real feelings about the emperor? was he ever open to the idea in the way lorgar was, or was he always chaosy and just using lorgar's vision and faith?

  Reveal hidden contents

the emperor never shows up. He is talked about in a remote way, especially regarding the Imperial Creed, but there is 0 interaction with the E at all.

 

KP basically Hides his loyalty to chaos beneath whatever belief system (or lack thereof) is in fashion that season.

 

[mc warhammer]

  On 10/11/2017 at 4:27 AM, Indefragable said:

 

  On 10/11/2017 at 12:34 AM, mc warhammer said:

are there any clues as to kp's real feelings about the emperor? was he ever open to the idea in the way lorgar was, or was he always chaosy and just using lorgar's vision and faith?

  Reveal hidden contents

the emperor never shows up. He is talked about in a remote way, especially regarding the Imperial Creed, but there is 0 interaction with the E at all.

 

KP basically Hides his loyalty to chaos beneath whatever belief system (or lack thereof) is in fashion that season.

 

 

 

thanks, i'd assumed that-

 

  Reveal hidden contents

the big e wouldn't rock up, but i was under the impression that lorgar had been having visions of him and that what fueled his faith and the revolution. and that kp had jumped on the bandwagon...

[Indefragable]

  On 10/11/2017 at 8:07 AM, mc warhammer said:

 

  On 10/11/2017 at 4:27 AM, Indefragable said:

 

 

  On 10/11/2017 at 12:34 AM, mc warhammer said:

are there any clues as to kp's real feelings about the emperor? was he ever open to the idea in the way lorgar was, or was he always chaosy and just using lorgar's vision and faith?

  Reveal hidden contents

the emperor never shows up. He is talked about in a remote way, especially regarding the Imperial Creed, but there is 0 interaction with the E at all.

 

KP basically Hides his loyalty to chaos beneath whatever belief system (or lack thereof) is in fashion that season.

 

thanks, i'd assumed that-

 

  Reveal hidden contents

the big e wouldn't rock up, but i was under the impression that lorgar had been having visions of him and that what fueled his faith and the revolution. and that kp had jumped on the bandwagon...

  Reveal hidden contents

...well, your assumptions are not wrong. Buts it more vague than that. The short version is that Lorgar predicts E’s coming (in a vague way) and starts changing Colchisian beliefs to fit that. KP let’s Lorgar play in his new sandbox while he twirls his moustache.

[Knockagh]

  On 10/10/2017 at 7:45 PM, fire golem said:

Well, I’ve just ordered it.

You won’t regret it. One of the best Black Library books I’ve ever read

[Brother Lunkhead]

I've just started reading 'Lorgar'. Interesting so far. I was a bit hesitant though. Gav Thorpe has disappointed me in the past. I was hugely disappointed with some (but not all) of his HH Raven Guard/Corax  works. But, I remembered his past work with the Dark Angels. He really got them right. Although, I always felt strangely depressed after reading them (It's probably just me).

 

Anyway... Lorgar A very intriguing character. I loved ADB's stuff on Lorgar and the Word Bearers, but in the end I still felt that he was a bit of an enigma. I feel that I understand the other primarchs and what motivates them. Lorgar, not so much. I think there are more layers to him and a lot left to be explored. Love him or hate him, Lorgar is a complicated character. I'm very interested to see Gav Thorpe's take.

[mc warhammer]

  On 10/11/2017 at 5:31 PM, Indefragable said:

 

  On 10/11/2017 at 8:07 AM, mc warhammer said:

 

  On 10/11/2017 at 4:27 AM, Indefragable said:

 

  On 10/11/2017 at 12:34 AM, mc warhammer said:

are there any clues as to kp's real feelings about the emperor? was he ever open to the idea in the way lorgar was, or was he always chaosy and just using lorgar's vision and faith?

  Reveal hidden contents

the emperor never shows up. He is talked about in a remote way, especially regarding the Imperial Creed, but there is 0 interaction with the E at all.

 

KP basically Hides his loyalty to chaos beneath whatever belief system (or lack thereof) is in fashion that season.

 

thanks, i'd assumed that-

 

  Reveal hidden contents

the big e wouldn't rock up, but i was under the impression that lorgar had been having visions of him and that what fueled his faith and the revolution. and that kp had jumped on the bandwagon...

  Reveal hidden contents

...well, your assumptions are not wrong. Buts it more vague than that. The short version is that Lorgar predicts E’s coming (in a vague way) and starts changing Colchisian beliefs to fit that. KP let’s Lorgar play in his new sandbox while he twirls his moustache.

 

 

thanks!