Primarch Book 5 - Lorgar: Bearer of the Word

[Daddywarcrimes]

 

I’ve finished this one now.

 

Disappointed with this Novel. Nothing of any significance happens.

 If I may, and this is without sarcasm, what you have preferred to happen? As one who doesn't really expect anything but character development from the series, its a position I don't really understand. What is Mellow's ideal Lorgar: Bearer of the Word?

 

 

You fed the troll...

[Kelborn]

Could someone explain to me the significance of the numbers being used as section dividers?

 

Are they a nod to the bible? Verses? Chapters?

[R_F_D]

Something like that. Check the notes about the book on Gav's website.

[mc warhammer]

just finished this one, and enjoyed it.

 

did anyone else get the vibe that even though lorgz was preaching all about "the one", that he was always in chaos' clutches? that seemed implied to me throughout, or at the very least,  presented as a viable option.

 

 

Plus we have a demi god that ended up twice the height of any human around (12 feet I would guess) being such a slave. Most of the other Primarchs defined themselves as leaders and whilst Lorgar did it felt like he was very weak which is not what I expect from one of the Emperors sons.

It would have been nice to skip ahead to some early Legion scenes with them doing something worthwhile and honourable. Instead of the treacherous scenes that were described.

 

not really sure what seeing something "honourable" would add to the book, but as far as leading went:

 

lorgar had been essentially leading everyone since birth. the revelation fits with his charismatic persona and soft power approach. and it's not a "weak" way to lead, it takes more strength to see that through to the end than say, perturabo's approach.

 

"appear weak when you are strong"  and "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" both come to mind.

 

 

My only major gripe is the ending:

 

Specifically Nairo's fate. I guessed he was going to meet some kind of unpleasant end since he's directly opposed to Kor Phaeron, but it happened very suddenly and without much build, within that scene at least. Nairo just suddenly draws a knife and goes for him, and after that, Lorgar smashes him down and then just proclaims that the Emperor is coming. Nairo going for Kor Phaeron and Lorgar brutally putting him down for it, I have no problem with either of those things. But a bit more build of Nairo growing increasingly frustrated and his conflict with Kor Phaeron reaching boiling point would have been good, as would Lorgar seeming a bit more shaken by what he did.

 

for me the buildup was fine. i was less sure why lorgar bashed in nairo's brains rather than just push him over, or block his way.

 

as for lorgar's callous reaction, there's a few options...

 

if lorgar manipulated and used KP from day one, it's safe to assume he did the same for nairo. which opens the question of whether the primarch felt anything for either man. if it was a case of cold manipulation from the start, then nairo's easy disposal makes some sense. lorgar certainly shows, if not a desire, then an acceptance of death as necessary to achieve goals (the group of declined that he "allows" KP to murder at the start).

 

there also seemed to be a hint that KP and his DH might have done something to lorgar during his brief return from conquest? nairo sensed a change in lorgar on his return, one that he didn't like. it might have been something that set him against nairo. if that were the case though, you'd think KP would have used the memory of that manipulation/magic to make himself feel better during his "omg i'm lorgar's puppet" inner monologue at the end 

 

or we just weren't shown it or lorgar didn't allow himself to feel it, as the approach of "the one" took priority in his mind.

Edited February 25, 2018 by mc warhammer

[DarkChaplain]

I mean, The First Heretic, Aurelian, Betrayer and Know No Fear all question to a degree whether Lorgar was manipulated by Kor Phaeron or manipulating his papa in kind. We also know for a fact that Kor Phaeron was sent to Calth, along with the bulk of "expendable" Word Bearers that may or may not be relied on by Lorgar. A bunch of Kor Phaeron's actions, including the Guilliman-attempt, were linked to him not wanting to be obsolete and disposed of.

 

He always desperately tried to hold himself in a position where he is more valuable to Lorgar alive than dead. He was painfully aware that Lorgar had overtaken him in many ways and tried to make it seem like he had more up his sleeve. By Know No Fear/Betrayer, we pretty much know that Lorgar is living on borrowed time. I think in Mark of Calth there may even be more on that angle.

The relationship between Kor Phaeron and Lorgar is a bit like that between Sith Master and Apprentice, where the Apprentice is expected to kill his Master and take his place, then taking a new Apprentice of his own, at the point where it is clear he has no more to learn from the boss. Palpatine is shown consistently holding back knowledge from Vader, both in the movies and the novels and comics (Expanded Universe and New Canon). Whenever Vader came close to thinking himself the superior of the two, Palps would sow doubt again and unveil something new to his pupil.

KP here does much the same. He realizes that Lorgar is outgrowing him, starts to panic and loses his sway over the slaves and apostles, before accepting Lorgar properly as his student and teaching him things bit by bit. He was horrified when Lorgar ended up being able to read texts he himself could not read!

 

What Bearer of the Word does not show us directly is how Lorgar regards any of this. Or rather, we see his actions but cannot comprehend his thoughts. He quite obviously plays both KP and Nairo throughout. At the end, Nairo has no more to teach Lorgar and is turning into a liability, so he is easily disposed of, whereas KP holds deeper knowledge that Lorgar still desires... at least until he knows more about The One. Lorgar is deeply calculating, much more so than his brothers give him credit for. They consider him weak because he doesn't fight as much, lets himself be subjected to things instead of taking charge directly. Here, we have him shown literally as a slave to a weaker man, abused both physically and mentally, for years. You *could* see that as him being weak and not asserting his own power enough. However, he is playing a role, turning himself into a martyr, playing to his master's whims, and sets himself up for later power when he feels he's got the better of all around him. All while playing both sides, while learning much from multiple perspectives, and having visions of deity.

 

If anything, I find Lorgar to be one of the most subtly terrifying and inhuman of the Primarchs we've seen. He's not a blunt weapon, not an obvious schemer, not afraid to go through hardships himself and fully willing to play out his pawns against one another. It lends further credence to how he was able to deceive the entire Imperium, his brother Primarchs, the Emperor, even suspicious Malcador, for many decades after properly falling to Chaos, while setting up even bigger catastrophes for the Heresy. On top of that, this is only the earliest example of Lorgar serving a greater power or two up until he feels himself in a position where he can overtake and dispose of it. Makes you wonder if he has reached the end of his apotheosis as a Daemon Primarch yet, or if he is actually planning to join the pantheon not as their chief apostle, but an equal or master of the four.

 

[bluntblade]

Even Tempest or maybe Massacre has shades of that. One of Kor Phaeron's officers is transferred to the Serrated Sun because he's disquieted by Argel Tal's ascendancy.

[mc warhammer]

I mean, The First Heretic, Aurelian, Betrayer and Know No Fear all question to a degree whether Lorgar was manipulated by Kor Phaeron or manipulating his papa in kind. We also know for a fact that Kor Phaeron was sent to Calth, along with the bulk of "expendable" Word Bearers that may or may not be relied on by Lorgar. A bunch of Kor Phaeron's actions, including the Guilliman-attempt, were linked to him not wanting to be obsolete and disposed of.

 

He always desperately tried to hold himself in a position where he is more valuable to Lorgar alive than dead. He was painfully aware that Lorgar had overtaken him in many ways and tried to make it seem like he had more up his sleeve. By Know No Fear/Betrayer, we pretty much know that Lorgar is living on borrowed time. I think in Mark of Calth there may even be more on that angle.

The relationship between Kor Phaeron and Lorgar is a bit like that between Sith Master and Apprentice, where the Apprentice is expected to kill his Master and take his place, then taking a new Apprentice of his own, at the point where it is clear he has no more to learn from the boss. Palpatine is shown consistently holding back knowledge from Vader, both in the movies and the novels and comics (Expanded Universe and New Canon). Whenever Vader came close to thinking himself the superior of the two, Palps would sow doubt again and unveil something new to his pupil.

KP here does much the same. He realizes that Lorgar is outgrowing him, starts to panic and loses his sway over the slaves and apostles, before accepting Lorgar properly as his student and teaching him things bit by bit. He was horrified when Lorgar ended up being able to read texts he himself could not read!

 

What Bearer of the Word does not show us directly is how Lorgar regards any of this. Or rather, we see his actions but cannot comprehend his thoughts. He quite obviously plays both KP and Nairo throughout. At the end, Nairo has no more to teach Lorgar and is turning into a liability, so he is easily disposed of, whereas KP holds deeper knowledge that Lorgar still desires... at least until he knows more about The One. Lorgar is deeply calculating, much more so than his brothers give him credit for. They consider him weak because he doesn't fight as much, lets himself be subjected to things instead of taking charge directly. Here, we have him shown literally as a slave to a weaker man, abused both physically and mentally, for years. You *could* see that as him being weak and not asserting his own power enough. However, he is playing a role, turning himself into a martyr, playing to his master's whims, and sets himself up for later power when he feels he's got the better of all around him. All while playing both sides, while learning much from multiple perspectives, and having visions of deity.

 

If anything, I find Lorgar to be one of the most subtly terrifying and inhuman of the Primarchs we've seen. He's not a blunt weapon, not an obvious schemer, not afraid to go through hardships himself and fully willing to play out his pawns against one another. It lends further credence to how he was able to deceive the entire Imperium, his brother Primarchs, the Emperor, even suspicious Malcador, for many decades after properly falling to Chaos, while setting up even bigger catastrophes for the Heresy. On top of that, this is only the earliest example of Lorgar serving a greater power or two up until he feels himself in a position where he can overtake and dispose of it. Makes you wonder if he has reached the end of his apotheosis as a Daemon Primarch yet, or if he is actually planning to join the pantheon not as their chief apostle, but an equal or master of the four.

 

 

 

makes you wonder how much of his public displays of compassion were crocodile tears

[Ascanius]

I think it's also possible that Lorgar's one of those people who convinces themselves that all of their self-serving, manipulative actions really are an expression of love for the other.

[Manchu warlord]

Though I hate the Word Bearers, and Lorgar is my least favorite primarch, I must say, this novel is pretty good, and enjoyable.

 

I really appreciated the fact that it was solely based on the primarch's home world, from a child all the way to adulthood, and eventually conquering his world. 
Any story that talks about the primarch's past, growing up on their home world is always fascinating and interesting to read about.  Too bad their isn't more like this.

 

I believe, this book may very well be the first of its kind:  a book that has nothing to do with the Imperium (excluding Eldar and other books where xenos are the protagonist).

[Knockagh]

 

Though I hate the Word Bearers, and Lorgar is my least favorite primarch, I must say, this novel is pretty good, and enjoyable.

 

I really appreciated the fact that it was solely based on the primarch's home world, from a child all the way to adulthood, and eventually conquering his world.

Any story that talks about the primarch's past, growing up on their home world is always fascinating and interesting to read about. Too bad their isn't more like this.

 

I believe, this book may very well be the first of its kind: a book that has nothing to do with the Imperium (excluding Eldar and other books where xenos are the protagonist).

These reasons (along with it just being fantastic!) are why I think it’s the best yet by miles. I wish we had more from the series like this too. Gav has a great way of expanding the story of the 40k universe into pre Imperial culture. He does it wonderfully in Lorgar and again in Jain Zar. Definitely gives me an appetite for more!

[Moonreaper666]

Would you guys be interested if the God-Emperor, Malcador and Morriannia receive the same treatment?

 

Be'lakor, Doombreed, Eldrad Ulthuan and Arha/Drazhra as well as Karandras?

 

 

 

Though I hate the Word Bearers, and Lorgar is my least favorite primarch, I must say, this novel is pretty good, and enjoyable.

 

I really appreciated the fact that it was solely based on the primarch's home world, from a child all the way to adulthood, and eventually conquering his world.

Any story that talks about the primarch's past, growing up on their home world is always fascinating and interesting to read about. Too bad their isn't more like this.

 

I believe, this book may very well be the first of its kind: a book that has nothing to do with the Imperium (excluding Eldar and other books where xenos are the protagonist).

These reasons (along with it just being fantastic!) are why I think it’s the best yet by miles. I wish we had more from the series like this too. Gav has a great way of expanding the story of the 40k universe into pre Imperial culture. He does it wonderfully in Lorgar and again in Jain Zar. Definitely gives me an appetite for more!

[Manchu warlord]

Would you guys be interested if the God-Emperor, Malcador and Morriannia receive the same treatment?

Be'lakor, Doombreed, Eldrad Ulthuan and Arha/Drazhra as well as Karandras?

 

Though I hate the Word Bearers, and Lorgar is my least favorite primarch, I must say, this novel is pretty good, and enjoyable.I really appreciated the fact that it was solely based on the primarch's home world, from a child all the way to adulthood, and eventually conquering his world.

Any story that talks about the primarch's past, growing up on their home world is always fascinating and interesting to read about. Too bad their isn't more like this.I believe, this book may very well be the first of its kind: a book that has nothing to do with the Imperium (excluding Eldar and other books where xenos are the protagonist).

These reasons (along with it just being fantastic!) are why I think it’s the best yet by miles. I wish we had more from the series like this too. Gav has a great way of expanding the story of the 40k universe into pre Imperial culture. He does it wonderfully in Lorgar and again in Jain Zar. Definitely gives me an appetite for more!

Malcador might be pretty good. Mariana, eh, she's not interesting in my opinion. As for the the Emperor... He must be not be tampered with.

 

As for the Eldars, I think they should be done in the same way Gav Thorpe has done Asurmen and Jain Zar.

[Knockagh]

Would you guys be interested if the God-Emperor, Malcador and Morriannia receive the same treatment?

 

Be'lakor, Doombreed, Eldrad Ulthuan and Arha/Drazhra as well as Karandras?

 

 

 

 

Though I hate the Word Bearers, and Lorgar is my least favorite primarch, I must say, this novel is pretty good, and enjoyable.

 

I really appreciated the fact that it was solely based on the primarch's home world, from a child all the way to adulthood, and eventually conquering his world.

Any story that talks about the primarch's past, growing up on their home world is always fascinating and interesting to read about. Too bad their isn't more like this.

 

I believe, this book may very well be the first of its kind: a book that has nothing to do with the Imperium (excluding Eldar and other books where xenos are the protagonist).

These reasons (along with it just being fantastic!) are why I think it’s the best yet by miles. I wish we had more from the series like this too. Gav has a great way of expanding the story of the 40k universe into pre Imperial culture. He does it wonderfully in Lorgar and again in Jain Zar. Definitely gives me an appetite for more!

Yes definitely! The more we know about the characters inhabiting the 30/40k universe tye richer it becomes. The story of ty sigillite order (while probably a pipe dream) would be amazing.

The only one I would be unsure of is the emperor. But we have had hints that during the Heresy series of an origin story. Who knows if it was handled right it could be amazing.