How are the Tau faring in 8th so far?

[Skaorn]

Dakka Dakka has a thread on General Discussion where people can input wins and losses for 8th ed games. (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730601.page)

Right now (7/14, 00:21AM GMT -3), the Tau W/L is this: 17W/40L. It has the worst W/L ratio of all armies with any representation in that thread. It's a small group of players, but at least it is organized and, well, Dakka Dakka is the biggest 40k forum.

 

Some may say people are still playing with 7th-style armies to justify such a gross number of defeats, but almost 1 month after 8th launch we should've seen a better W/L. We aren't.

The 2 main Tau facebook groups and Advanded Tau Tactica forum also report more losses than wins. Tourney results are even worse, when Tau can manage to get a win at small games (1000p or less), but anything greater makes them like Sisters were in 7th - 1 list works, and not even by much.

Anedoctal-ly, I've won against a melee-heavy SW list, but lost to a vehicle-heavy AM list.

 

So, in my view, Tau isn't doing well at all, except in very casual metas (curiously, power levels make our stuff much better costed than by points). Some changes are needed to make it on par with other codexes, and I'm glad the new GW administration has the Living FAQ project to allow that.

Wow, thank you for doing that research!

[Panzer]

This edition has turn 1 charges (with some models going as far as 28" + 2d6), deepstrike and charge from 9" away and you can charge from transports again (tho less good as in 5th).

It makes for a bad time for pure shooting armies.

This edition also has WAY more durable Battlesuits which can also just jump out of melee without a problem and still keep shooting. ;)

[Vector Strike]

This edition has turn 1 charges (with some models going as far as 28" + 2d6), deepstrike and charge from 9" away and you can charge from transports again (tho less good as in 5th).

It makes for a bad time for pure shooting armies.

Not that much. Astra Militarum and Admech are doing well

[chapter master 454]

 

This edition has turn 1 charges (with some models going as far as 28" + 2d6), deepstrike and charge from 9" away and you can charge from transports again (tho less good as in 5th).

It makes for a bad time for pure shooting armies.

This edition also has WAY more durable Battlesuits which can also just jump out of melee without a problem and still keep shooting.

 

 

The units that charge will very likely MURDER suits. If you got charged by someone and still have 3 suits left then they aren't good melee. Right now the guys that charge will just leave a dead pile asking for more real estate. The strength of melee this edition is stupid since we now have the return of consolidation into another unit thus meaning units can just chain combats together with no issue.

 

The main issue is bad point costs along with some very odd factors: short ranged special weapons. 24" is no longer a good safe distance to be at and 18" is practically a joke distance to think you are safe. Suits are 42 points (and if you want the 'get down mr. president' then bodyguard variants are 45 points extra for nothing else extra) and with a BURST CANNON makes them 52 points. To compare an assault terminator with thunder hammer and storm shield is 56 points. One of those models is well equipped and effective while the other flails around hoping for something to hit with their mediocre BS. Right now I have seen a pattern of just run at your opponent and charge even if you are able to shoot well as shooting is just a complete mess with all the random variables it has right now so I guess Tau may as well just go and play hearthstone at that rate.

 

Certainly my biggest gripe is the random factor now. Scatter dice and templates worked because it wasn't 2-step to hit. You ether got the template on target and got those under or you missed. Not Roll D6, get a 1 then roll to see if this one hit or not. There needs to be less randomness to these weapons which can be fixed ether by giving them the 'hit automatically' rule OR possibly bring templates back.

[Panzer]

So far none of my Battlesuits got outright murdered tho. I'm not kidding when I say they are very durable now.

[Vector Strike]

The OP from that thread I linked updated the W/L ratio of input armies. Tau are now 32/55. Better than the previous 10/40, but still miles behind other armies (Orks and CSM aside)

 

So far none of my Battlesuits got outright murdered tho. I'm not kidding when I say they are very durable now.

Indeed they are. My Stealth Suits managed to hold after 2 charges of 16-man bloodclaws units

[depthcharge12]

So far none of my Battlesuits got outright murdered tho. I'm not kidding when I say they are very durable now.

While I have yet to get a game in (just finished a data analytics minor class) this is exactly what I've seen. All the batreps I've watched have seen people whiff like crazy. The only exception is facing off against multi damage dudes like TH terminators, but they usually get gunned down.

 

With the lack of rerolls and extra attacks this edition, I believe I can summate the assault phase as this: It's easier to get into assault now and it's more frequent, but it is much less killy. Even with the flat to hit rolls, morale, and multi damage cc weapons, assault still seems to fall flat with average rolling. Fewer attacks and fewer rerolls mitigate a lot of the potential damage.

 

While I hate to speak for the entirety of this edition, that is what I have collected from battle reports. Battlesuits themselves are pillow fisted, but they don't just melt in assault like they used to. Added to the fact that they can just elect to leave combat and still shoot, assault isn't terrifying to them unless your opponent has the luck of the devil.

[Skaorn]

So battle suits can survive a turn of close combat and still shoot. They got an extra wound, which is only fair if Termies and similar units did too, and can disengage from CC. On the other side of things it seems like they lost movement overall and do they need a support system not to take a penalty to shooting if they move?

 

There are plenty of other units that are still seriously affected by the current CC rules. Fire warriors are the first obvious one that comes to mind, but chances are it will be your Broadsides and Pathfinders that'll be targeted for 1st turn charges. Once they get in the mix, they likely won't get out unless you send something in to CC to help out and Kroot seem like they took a kick to the cloaca. I seem to remember them being base Str 4, not 3 and their rifles giving them +1 attack not Str. Right now what I'm hearing is that you should be playing vehicles and battle suits which sucks to me as I liked using everything, except ethereals.

 

So far, Vector Strike's post has given me the best evidence that what I was seeing is sadly true. I hope they will be in the first 10 and get some major work. Maybe even give them back the best base rifle in the game (sure not a big deal compared to other issues but rather insulting).

[Panzer]

So battle suits can survive a turn of close combat and still shoot. They got an extra wound, which is only fair if Termies and similar units did too, and can disengage from CC. On the other side of things it seems like they lost movement overall and do they need a support system not to take a penalty to shooting if they move?

 

There are plenty of other units that are still seriously affected by the current CC rules. Fire warriors are the first obvious one that comes to mind, but chances are it will be your Broadsides and Pathfinders that'll be targeted for 1st turn charges. Once they get in the mix, they likely won't get out unless you send something in to CC to help out and Kroot seem like they took a kick to the cloaca. I seem to remember them being base Str 4, not 3 and their rifles giving them +1 attack not Str. Right now what I'm hearing is that you should be playing vehicles and battle suits which sucks to me as I liked using everything, except ethereals.

 

So far, Vector Strike's post has given me the best evidence that what I was seeing is sadly true. I hope they will be in the first 10 and get some major work. Maybe even give them back the best base rifle in the game (sure not a big deal compared to other issues but rather insulting).

Honestly, if I play a Broadside then it's with a good amount of Drones around him. So if an enemy actually charges him he'd have to either punch through the T5 2+ with 6 wounds or has to kill all the Drones first. That will take a while so the Broadside himself ties up a mean melee unit for a few rounds which is not exactly bad either. Also since I have Drones around him, the enemy can't charge him out of deep strike that easily in the first place.

 

Also you don't have to send any unit into melee to help one of your units. Just fall back with your Firewarrior, Broadside or whatever and shoot the enemy unit to death. You sacrifice one round of shooting with the Firewarrior etc. but it's not like they are completely lost.

 

Yes Battlesuits have to buy a Target Lock if they want to move&shoot without penalty. Or get Markerlight Support. However that only affects the big suits since all weapons Crisis can take are Rapid Fire or Assault weapons.

 

Oh also Crisis didn't just get an extra wound, they also got +1T (as did Stealth Suits, Broadsides, Ghostkeels and Riptides).

 

Kroot got slightly nerfed, but not in melee. They traded AP6 for S4 (they weren't S4 in 7th). They reason why they got nerfed is because they lost their Sniper Rounds.

 

Lastly, if you heared that you should use Vehicles and Battlesuits then you most likely heard wrong since those are mostly considered to be the units that are a bit on the weaker side due their cost. What's strong is Infantry, Gun Drones, Stealth Suits and Commander.

Crisis heavily depend on your list. As big alpha strike drop they are still quite good albeit expensive. Small units for tactical drops get outshined by the Commander

Bigger suits are rather meh at the moment. Except for the Stormsurge maybe.

Hammerheads are only really strong with Longside in your list and Skyrays are bad unless you know there is a target you really want to throw some Mortal wounds at turn 1.

Sunsharks are surprisingly good now tho.

 

 

Honestly you seem to have a very weird/wrong picture of T'au in 8th. I recommend you to play some games yourself instead of listening what some people have to say (me included).

[Aothaine]

I think T'au are really decent this go round. It is just going to take people a little bit of time to get used to the new meta. Every army is having ups an downs right now.

[Panzer]

Also apparently T'au just took 2nd place in a Tournament: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/07/13/wetcoast-gt-2017-recap-lists/

[Commander Dawnstar]

I saw that earlier, and I find myself a little confused how the Stealth Teams have two Homing Beacons each and units of five Gun Drones come to 32 points rather than 40.

[Panzer]

The points are very weird as well. Either it's only 4 Drones each or he got the points for the Drones wrong. Also 1 Homing Beacon max per Stealth Team. I hope it's just that someone got the list wrong and not that he actually played like that. 

[Captain_Krash]

Just a shot out to a few post back.

 

I totally wish they would have Melee Crisis Suits. Would be such beautiful models...duel wrist mounted fusion blades with built in flamers or something. All acrobatic and stuff

 

Krash

[Panzer]

If T'au ever get melee suits then GW better have a REALLY good explanation for it since it goes against their whole doctrine. I can already imagine the outcry similar to the news of Primaris Marines here on ATT if we ever get such a unit. ^^

That being said, even tho melee Suits would be thematically cool I'd prefer not having them. Better flesh out the T'au Empire auxiliary races if they want to give T'au a melee unit. That's one of the cool things about this faction. It's more than just race that fights together on the same side.

[depthcharge12]

See, I imagine a Tau close combat unit as something between a Hazard suit and a R'varna. It would have super short ranged weapons that could fire in cc and a shockwave ability similiar to the Nova power of the latter mentioned suit.

 

That'd be pretty cool. Have like mini R'varna looking suits with flechette bundles and photon dischargers...now that is a Tau close combat suit!

[Captain_Krash]

@sfPanzer  I mean it wouldn't really need an explanation at all. Forgeworld decided to make the KX139 Supremacy Armor, and the stormsurge both go against there established lore/style of warfare but hey make money right?

 

@depthcharge that's exactly what I was thinking of! Would be awesome and fluffy as well.

 

Krash

[Trevak Dal]

If T'au ever get melee suits then GW better have a REALLY good explanation for it since it goes against their whole doctrine. I can already imagine the outcry similar to the news of Primaris Marines here on ATT if we ever get such a unit. ^^

 

That being said, even tho melee Suits would be thematically cool I'd prefer not having them. Better flesh out the T'au Empire auxiliary races if they want to give T'au a melee unit. That's one of the cool things about this faction. It's more than just race that fights together on the same side.

Well the invention of the Riptide was like the Jaegars in the Pacific Rim universe, the Firecaste kept asking for heavy suits to combat the nasty stuff they were coming across.

 

Combat suits could arise as an adaptation for an intervention suit. Like twin fusion blades on an xv9 chassis.

[Aothaine]

The T'au have Kroot. They don't need another dedicated melee specialist. Everything in their kit works better without one imho. Sure things can assault on the first turn, but you just fall back and shoot. Do what you're good at.

Edit: I'm also wondering if they will upgrade the shapers and make Kroot lists a thing when the T'au codex releases. Remember we are working on stop-gaps for now.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Aothaine

[Skaorn]

Ok, you were right. The Kroot screw happened when the Riptide came out. I forgot I had the digital codex that I can't get rid of and forgot about that change (I just finished a full course of ECT so my memory is crap). I also completely agree with you about CC battle suits.

 

Why on earth would I sink hundreds of dollars into a game that has been progressively going in a direction I don't like. The need for more special rules that couldn't be covered by a list of USRs and bigger badder weapons specific to a unit was starting to make the game feel like it was heading towards Warmachine's power combos. Now GW wants to make CC great again? Not really interesting to me. Sorry, no. I may still like the Tau and want to keep up with what's going on and hope they do well as 40k's underdog but the game seems more annoying than fun to play now.

 

As for Broadsides, it seems an awful lot of points to spend on a unit that your opponent can keep from doing what they're supposed to. 8th reminds me of why I stopped using them in 3rd. Every imperial player I faced took Calidus Assassins against Tau, partially in case of Broadsides. Move them out of firing position so they have to waste the first turn moving, then pop out the next, charge, and even if you did get stuck there for more than a turn, you still made more than your points back.

 

As for your tournament 2nd placer, you already put out that there were errors in the list. Maybe they were typos, but it still takes away some of the impact. Plus it's only one victory. There is a reason why I value Vector Strike's post. If his data showed the Tau doing ok, it would have eased my worries for the Tau.

[Captain_Krash]

Kroot are not CC specialist...there terrible seriously. I'm a old Kroot Merc player from 3rd/4th/5th and have 200+ model Kroot Merc army when they were neat an a beautiful conversion project. But make no mistake Kroot are not for CC, there laughable at best.

 

Krash

[Panzer]

 

If T'au ever get melee suits then GW better have a REALLY good explanation for it since it goes against their whole doctrine. I can already imagine the outcry similar to the news of Primaris Marines here on ATT if we ever get such a unit. ^^

 

That being said, even tho melee Suits would be thematically cool I'd prefer not having them. Better flesh out the T'au Empire auxiliary races if they want to give T'au a melee unit. That's one of the cool things about this faction. It's more than just race that fights together on the same side.

Well the invention of the Riptide was like the Jaegars in the Pacific Rim universe, the Firecaste kept asking for heavy suits to combat the nasty stuff they were coming across.

 

Combat suits could arise as an adaptation for an intervention suit. Like twin fusion blades on an xv9 chassis.

 

Yeah and I think I remember that the fluff used to say that T'au would never build a bigger suit than the Riptide because they think it would be more efficient to focus on air support at that point....then Damocles happened and as uncreative as GW often is they screwed over their own fluff and went with "bigger is better" lol

 

The T'au have Kroot. They don't need another dedicated melee specialist. Everything in their kit works better without one imho. Sure things can assault on the first turn, but you just fall back and shoot. Do what you're good at.

Edit: I'm also wondering if they will upgrade the shapers and make Kroot lists a thing when the T'au codex releases. Remember we are working on stop-gaps for now.

Kroot never are not and never were supposed to be a melee specialist unit. They are a cheap unit that scouts ahead and harasses the enemy/is okay to sacrifice for the T'au.

[Vector Strike]

If T'au ever get melee suits then GW better have a REALLY good explanation for it since it goes against their whole doctrine. I can already imagine the outcry similar to the news of Primaris Marines here on ATT if we ever get such a unit. ^^

 

That's fairly simple: Tau, alongside Tyranids, is the most adaptable army out there. They'll try new methods and angles to resolve a problem instead of using the old and trusted techniques everytime. If the enemy proves to be able to reach Tau lines most of the time, it would be sensate to change their methods to include melee specialists.

 

Like you, I'd rather have Demiurgs or Tarellian Dog-Soldiers doing this work (mostly for finally bringing more races to the game), but melee crisis would be cool too

[Panzer]

 

If T'au ever get melee suits then GW better have a REALLY good explanation for it since it goes against their whole doctrine. I can already imagine the outcry similar to the news of Primaris Marines here on ATT if we ever get such a unit. ^^

 

That's fairly simple: Tau, alongside Tyranids, is the most adaptable army out there. They'll try new methods and angles to resolve a problem instead of using the old and trusted techniques everytime. If the enemy proves to be able to reach Tau lines most of the time, it would be sensate to change their methods to include melee specialists.

 

Except that it got said that T'au would rather concentrate on imrpoving their ranged damage output to prevent them reaching their lines instead of concentrating to invent technology that gives them a chance to fight in melee.

You could say the increasd durability and the ability to fall back and shoot from Battlesuits is the direct outcome of that train of thought even (it's not like that since it's due the edition switch but you get my point).

[Skaorn]

I would much rather see the Tau expand their auxiliary than get melee suits. Make Kroot Mercs a faction that can actually ally with the Tau this time. The Tau can certainly come up with upgrades that can fit with the Kroot's desire for limited technology but make them more effective too. For instance mono molecular edges on blades probably wouldn't put either Tau or Kroot out. Adding in other Xenos units as well with ways to enhance them too. For instance a Vespid Queen that can boost vespid units near by. Even things for the Tau like flames drones that only do overwatch to protect from CC or Earth caste techs that follow Ethereals around to operate advanced systems like an area shield generator, something to screw psychers, boost pulse weapons, or even just provide healing/repairs. Things like this seem more appropriate than a melee suit, unless they release one that is Farsight only.

 

As for large suits, the fluff specifically was directed at Titans I believe. I can sort of see Fire caste wanting a unit to deal with such threats rather than just leaving it to the Air Caste. I do miss the Manta being the Tau's answer to Titans though. Also, the FW flyers are infinitely better than the one GW released. Actually FW taking over the Tau might tempt me back, despite the terrible cost to my wallet.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Skaorn