Chapter Focus - Iron Hands

[Joe]

I mean, we know they exist as there's artwork.

 

[Shuul]

So, there is no any kind of bonus to tech-marines or vehicles?

IWND in 7ed was the only reason I played my IH vehicle-heavy list.

 

Or am i missing something?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Hm, IHs are the only Astartes sub-faction without a named character now; I wonder if they'll be seeing one in the near future to at least put them on par with the White Scars or Salamanders?

 

 

The Iron Hands have no characters.  The Iron Hands need no characters.

 

/Boromir

 

 

 

There's no conflict between Primaris marines and Iron hands. 

 

 

That's a matter of opinion.  I won't be introducing Primaris Marines to my Clan Company, no matter what GW says.  These "new" Marines are not Medusans.  They didn't have to endure the hardships of growing up on a tectonically unstable, sunless, death world.  They didn't cut their teeth fighting against other Iron Hands for resources.  They didn't have their left hands replaced upon their raising to full Marine.  They haven't been indoctrinated in the Iron Hands' own specific Chapter cult, which is gravely divergent from every other Chapter cult.

 

These Primaris Marines are Iron Hands only in name, and I'll not have them in my Clan.  What each of you do is up to you.

[Endova]

On the contrary, I could easily see us getting one of the first Primaris characters. We're the only chapter with a special title for our Lieutenants, that of Naysmith. So perhaps something along those lines.

[mediantrace]

It was confirmed on the GW Facebook page that the Venerable Dred gets to roll both on each wound. So 30% chance to avoid any wound. Not bad.

[Icarus1138]

 

 

That's a matter of opinion.  I won't be introducing Primaris Marines to my Clan Company, no matter what GW says.  These "new" Marines are not Medusans.  They didn't have to endure the hardships of growing up on a tectonically unstable, sunless, death world.  They didn't cut their teeth fighting against other Iron Hands for resources.  They didn't have their left hands replaced upon their raising to full Marine.  They haven't been indoctrinated in the Iron Hands' own specific Chapter cult, which is gravely divergent from every other Chapter cult.

 

These Primaris Marines are Iron Hands only in name, and I'll not have them in my Clan.  What each of you do is up to you.

 

 

For what it's worth, the Dark Imperium novel includes a Fenrisian Primaris marine with 6th Legion geneseed, disappointed that he's being assigned to a new Chapter rather than the Space Wolves. We have every reason to believe that there are Medusan Primaris marines, likely in multiple Chapters (though not your Clan Company). Certainly they won't have had mandatory hand replacements, or indoctrination to the cult pre-assignment. They aren't Iron Hands. Medusans though, those will likely exist in Primaris form.

[Hathor42]

It's like the deathguard rule but only on a 6+ and it works on dreads. Pretty cool.

[Ascanius]

 

For what it's worth, the Dark Imperium novel includes a Fenrisian Primaris marine with 6th Legion geneseed, disappointed that he's being assigned to a new Chapter rather than the Space Wolves. We have every reason to believe that there are Medusan Primaris marines, likely in multiple Chapters (though not your Clan Company). Certainly they won't have had mandatory hand replacements, or indoctrination to the cult pre-assignment. They aren't Iron Hands. Medusans though, those will likely exist in Primaris form.

 

That same chapter also features the leader of the squad, who's from the X Legion gene-line.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It was confirmed on the GW Facebook page that the Venerable Dred gets to roll both on each wound. So 30% chance to avoid any wound. Not bad.

 

:cuss ing sweet!  Is it my birthday?  'Cause it sure feels (no pain) like it!

 

 

 

 

 

For what it's worth, the Dark Imperium novel includes a Fenrisian Primaris marine with 6th Legion geneseed, disappointed that he's being assigned to a new Chapter rather than the Space Wolves. We have every reason to believe that there are Medusan Primaris marines, likely in multiple Chapters (though not your Clan Company). Certainly they won't have had mandatory hand replacements, or indoctrination to the cult pre-assignment. They aren't Iron Hands. Medusans though, those will likely exist in Primaris form.

 

That same chapter also features the leader of the squad, who's from the X Legion gene-line.

 

 

It's not a question of gene-line.  I'm not saying Iron Hand Primarises aren't from Iron Hands gene-seed.  I'm saying they're not Medusans, as in "from the planet Medusa."  Unless Cawl was going around during the Scouring kidnapping children from all the various Legion home-worlds before making his first-batch Primaris, very few of them are going to be from their Chapter's homeworlds.  Where you're from, and by extension the trials you've had to face as a child (whether at the hands of the Chapter or just living in a hive sink/deathworld/whatever) bears heavily on the recruitment process of basically every Chapter.

[Alcyon]

2+ is 83% to save + (16.7% to fail)(16.7% to pass the 6+) = 85% (+2% improvement)

3+ is 66% to save + (33%)(16.7%) = 71.5% (+5.5%)

4+ is 50% to save + (50%)(16.7%) = 58% (+8%)

5+ is 33% to save + (66%)(16.7%) = 44% (+11%)

 

6+ is 16.7% to save + (83%)(16.7%) = 30% (+13%) 

 

Upgrades IH Crux Terminatus or 3+ vs. AP2 saves to almost a 4+, and power armour saves vs. AP3 to a 5+. Of course, this is just for weapons that do 1 damage. But it's interesting to think about how this could affect list building for IH. We have a leg up on other chapters against mortal wounds and higher AP weapons, or when using weaker saves (scouts/not being in cover). What do you think we could do to optimize this?

 

I do also hope there'll be a relic to buff this higher, that would be pretty rad.

[DJMoose]

It was confirmed on the GW Facebook page that the Venerable Dred gets to roll both on each wound. So 30% chance to avoid any wound. Not bad.

WELP.  Suddenly all my dreadnoughts are Venerable.

 

Yeah losing It Will Not Die sucks, but considering how much vehicles and dreads in general got buffed, I'll still take it.  Especially the ability to possibly ignore mortal wounds.

[Paikis]

 

Unless Cawl was going around during the Scouring kidnapping children from all the various Legion home-worlds before making his first-batch Primaris, very few of them are going to be from their Chapter's homeworlds.  Where you're from, and by extension the trials you've had to face as a child (whether at the hands of the Chapter or just living in a hive sink/deathworld/whatever) bears heavily on the recruitment process of basically every Chapter.

 

 

As per "Dark Imperium", that's exactly what Cawl was doing. He was taking Neophytes on Girlyman's orders. So not only are they Medusan, they've already been accepted as recruits for the Iron Hands (or other chapters).

[Panzer]

 

 

Unless Cawl was going around during the Scouring kidnapping children from all the various Legion home-worlds before making his first-batch Primaris, very few of them are going to be from their Chapter's homeworlds.  Where you're from, and by extension the trials you've had to face as a child (whether at the hands of the Chapter or just living in a hive sink/deathworld/whatever) bears heavily on the recruitment process of basically every Chapter.

 

 

As per "Dark Imperium", that's exactly what Cawl was doing. He was taking Neophytes on Girlyman's orders. So not only are they Medusan, they've already been accepted as recruits for the Iron Hands (or other chapters).

 

Plus, as mentioned multiple times, it's entirely possible for existing marines to get turned into Primaris as well.

 

Anyway would be interesting to see how an Iron Fist reacts to his shiny new weak flesh and how long it'll take him to replace it with proper iron. :D

[Iron Father Imeran Byon]

 

 

 

Unless Cawl was going around during the Scouring kidnapping children from all the various Legion home-worlds before making his first-batch Primaris, very few of them are going to be from their Chapter's homeworlds.  Where you're from, and by extension the trials you've had to face as a child (whether at the hands of the Chapter or just living in a hive sink/deathworld/whatever) bears heavily on the recruitment process of basically every Chapter.

 

 

As per "Dark Imperium", that's exactly what Cawl was doing. He was taking Neophytes on Girlyman's orders. So not only are they Medusan, they've already been accepted as recruits for the Iron Hands (or other chapters).

 

Plus, as mentioned multiple times, it's entirely possible for existing marines to get turned into Primaris as well.

 

Anyway would be interesting to see how an Iron Fist reacts to his shiny new weak flesh and how long it'll take him to replace it with proper iron.

 

 

To that whole discussion I'll just quote what I said elsewhere in the IH Forum:

 

 

a) While they are the blessed work of the Omnissiah, delivered though the sacred hands of a most powerful Archmagus on Mars, they're still a heap of flesh which is - in its essence - weak.

There may be different kinds of weakness: Xenos flesh being the weakest, human flesh being weaker than that of the Astartes and theirs maybe even weaker than the Primaris' flesh. But they're still weak, compared to the most sacred, iron body of the machine.

 

b) Simply augmenting them is not an option, either. Since they were born of Mars, and not Medusa, they're no true brothers to fill the ranks of the Iron Hands and (as Brother Morovir cited) as such not to be trusted to stay strong for the brothers left and right of them.

 

c) "Upgrading" (what a blasphemous word!) a venerated brother of the Iron Hands or their successor chapters to a Primaris is also out of the question, since their augmentations will not grow to the new form. These augmentations obviously can't be replaced - Omnissiah, forgive me the thought - since they're as much a part of the Space Marine that used them throughout his battles as the Space Marine's calculating conscience. So he might just as well be executed on the spot.

 

They will surely be valuable allies, but far cousins nonetheless.

 

With the new information I'll need to augment (heh) my point b) in so far as that there seem to be Medusan born, initiated Iron Hands recruits in the Primaris' ranks. But, Being an Iron Hand is the whole deal! And that means surely no less then what venerable Iron Father Ferrum has explained: be born, grow up, survive, be initiated, survive more, suvive longer, survive harder than any other on Medusa. Only then your brothers - who all did likewise - can count on you.

 

To me, this part of the fluff is extremely important, because strength is our unique feature. It's not "they put augmetics on themselves". That's what every Space Marine does, up to and including becoming a Dreadnought. It's also not "they put augmetics on themselves even though their limbs are still perfectly fine!", becaue the Iron Hands don't do that willy nilly. It's the "Why do they do that?" that's important. We're the Emperor's annihilators. When you call the Iron Hands to the battlefield, we're there to destroy anything without question, doubt or remains. We're the epitome of full frontal assault without mercy for the weak. And as such, something considered weak - even if just morally weak - is a danger to the whole approach.

It's like a well forged hammer head with a small impurity in it: Give it time and use, and it will break at that impurity.

 

But, alas, this topic should be for the Chapter Tactics and not the question of Primaris in the Iron Hands chapter, I think.

That discussion can be had here.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Imeran

[BassWave]

Primaris are here to stay and they are in all the founding chapters. For goodness sake one of the primaris organs, the sinew coils, are bionic coil around muscles to increase strength. You can't even call them fleshbags. Its even called the "steel within". As for not having painted primaris marines in IH colors, it's a tall order for the painters to have all these new miniatures painted in 11 different colors on release. Especially for a chapter that GW has shown disinterest for since 5th edition.

 

I don't like the idea of primaris either, but the lengths some of you guys are going in justifying not using them is a bit much. Just don't use them.

[Iron Father Imeran Byon]

Primaris are here to stay and they are in all the founding chapters. For goodness sake one of the primaris organs, the sinew coils, are bionic coil around muscles to increase strength. You can't even call them fleshbags. Its even called the "steel within". As for not having painted primaris marines in IH colors, it's a tall order for the painters to have all these new miniatures painted in 11 different colors on release. Especially for a chapter that GW has shown disinterest for since 5th edition.

 

I don't like the idea of primaris either, but the lengths some of you guys are going in justifying not using them is a bit much. Just don't use them.

 

It's not that I feel the need to justify me not using Primaris in my Clan Company.

I just like to do so.

 

I could also play Iron Hands an call my Chapter Master "Smashfarker", but I chose to give him a fluffy name.

I don't see why there's a reason to belittle the effort.

 

Oh, and by quoting only a part of my original post I may have not emphasized it enough, but I don't care if others play their Iron Hands with Primaris. Neither do I care if they like to justify it fluff-wise or not (I'd welcome it, but that's just a subjective preference)

 

P.S.: I even play Primaris, but as a different army. I just don't want to use them in my Iron Hands Clan Company and "fluffed out" a reason. A well founded reason, I feel, but make of that what you want.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Imeran

[General Strike]

I mean, how many of you play true Iron Hands and not DIY or successors? Does it really matter that Iron Hands dont have characters when GW says you have to play pure Iron Hands in order to use them? My non-blue Ultra Marines cant use Marneus Calgar according to the core rule book. It sucks that Iron Hands dont have one because thats a big boost for people but with the new successor rules, youre stuck with one paint job.

[BassWave]

Imeran I wasnt quoting anyone in particular nor am I trying to belittle anyone. I guess my main issue is that I'm frustrated with the fact that there is little to be excited about in the hobby for me. There's some neat things yes. However for Iron Hands all we've seen is a not very inspiring chapter tactic, and not even a hint of a character. Hopefully the rest of the rules will change my mind. I have been playing Iron Hands since 5th edition. I'm tired of this cycle of disappointment with every new marine codex.

[Iron Father Imeran Byon]

Imeran I wasnt quoting anyone in particular nor am I trying to belittle anyone. I guess my main issue is that I'm frustrated with the fact that there is little to be excited about in the hobby for me. There's some neat things yes. However for Iron Hands all we've seen is a not very inspiring chapter tactic, and not even a hint of a character. Hopefully the rest of the rules will change my mind. I have been playing Iron Hands since 5th edition. I'm tired of this cycle of disappointment with every new marine codex.

 

Oh, I see. I'm completely with you there. I'm making the most of it by making my dudes my dudes and playing with friends.

While we can't really complain about the competitive side of our chapter (and it looks to be on about the same level again) I have to agree though that I get envious of other chapters and armies with more fluffed out and thought out rules and character(s).

I mean, the Death Guard -for now - are the same as Iron Hands, without the FnP for Dreadnoughts but with Characters... and strong ones at that...

[Joe]

Our chapter focus is finally here.

[TrawlingCleaner]

Weaker chapter tactic but a potentially stronger strategim, removing moving penalties on vehicles is pretty nice. Still no character though which is a real pain

[Sete]

Looking good. Depending on how BT traits and stratagems are, I might have a contender for the Primaris Project.

[Iron Father Imeran Byon]

Am I understanding it correctly that every chapter gets just one Warlord Trait and one relic, as opposed to six each, as before?

I like the Axe of Medusa, especially in the combination with that "more attacks" WL trait, but I liked peppering my army with a few relics to strengthen certain roles a bit more.

I thought the Tempered Helm would at least make a comeback, given how this relic already went with the "buff bubble" that is a main mechanic of characters, now. Not necessarily with the same buffs but...

 

Also, I'm wondering... if there are only one WL trait and one relic each, may it be possible that there are additional supplements coming to flesh out certain chapters?

[Panzer]

Am I understanding it correctly that every chapter gets just one Warlord Trait and one relic, as opposed to six each, as before?

I like the Axe of Medusa, especially in the combination with that "more attacks" WL trait, but I liked peppering my army with a few relics to strengthen certain roles a bit more.

I thought the Tempered Helm would at least make a comeback, given how this relic already went with the "buff bubble" that is a main mechanic of characters, now. Not necessarily with the same buffs but...

 

Also, I'm wondering... if there are only one WL trait and one relic each, may it be possible that there are additional supplements coming to flesh out certain chapters?

Plus the generic Adeputs Astartes ones, yes.

[Panzer]

So only models with a Power Axe can take that relic...I wonder if relics just don't cost points anymore or this relic better be cheap because people won't like having to "waste" points on a Power Axe they won't be using.