Chances and thoughts on Deathwatch codex in 8th?

[Boyadventurer]

I mean, I'd like to see SIA get a point drop or just become a CT (unless mission tactics gets interesting). In that case, you'd just be paying 1pt more for an intercessor over what a vet costs right now. Even without any points change, 4 more for +1W isn't *that* bad.

[Moostick]

And +6" range and +1 AP. And Reivers at 24" Assault 2. It'd be pretty bad.

 

If we give them regular bolters instead, then they might as well just exclude regular Vets altogether.

 

I'm all for making DW good, but there's balance to keep in mind. With SIA and weapon options? 25 pts base cost each. At least.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Moostick

[TheUbikator]

Not only do I want to see Primaris get SIA, I also want to see them have access to combi weapons, special weapons, and heavy weapons.

Please god no. Just no. God no. Hell no. 

 

If you give Primadonna Marines SIA, access to heavy/special weapons then what is the point of taking Veterans? The entire codex would turn to "Primaris Marines and rest of the inferior Deathwatch". 

The less Super Space Marines in our Codex the better. Deathwatch isn't a chapter per se it is an organization. Every marine in DW should be a veteran marine who is sent to DW based on his skills - not because he is Goddamn Chad Marine. The entire idea of squads made entirely from Primaris Marines goes against the very idea of DW. Allowing upgrading veterans to a Primaris in a Kill team is a good idea, but please please please DO NOT turn this codex into: "This half is Deathwatch and this better half is Primaris stuff". 

 

The only thing that makes Veterans better than those awful, contrived, ugly and stupid Primaris marines is the fact that veterans have better Ld, have access to SIA, and variety of weapons - you take that away and half of our model line is useless.

 

The biggest problem with this faction is not lack of a Primaris marines, it is the lack of synergy between units. Of all of our units in the index, there are only three that synergize well: Corvus Blackstar, Land Raider and Kill Team. Infernus Heavy Bolter doesn't work because it's too pricey for what it does - especially compared to frag cannon. Razorbacks and Rhinos are good but can't transport Terminators, Jump Packs and bikes. Drop Pods just cost way too much (about 30 points too much) and can't transport anything except regular veterans. Primaris marines are just expensive meat shields and obj holders <- there are way better alternatives for them (Tempestus Scions, regular guard or ad mech for example).

 

What do we need is not more Primaris stuff, but points overhaul, some new transport/light infantry, and customizable HQs. Nothing more.

[sockwithaticket]

^
Yep, customisable HQs are a big wishlist item.

I think SIA should be wedded to specific weapons (all regular bolt weapons - bolter, pistol, storm, combis; I like to pretend Primaris don't exist) and that Vets should start with no weapons. That way you're not paying for SIA when you equip with fun stuff like frag cannons.

[Xisor]

Is there any indication, lore-wise, if Carl-pattern bolt weaponry is actually compatible with standard issue ammunition, let alone special Issue?

 

Because if you have to re-purpose entire Hives to output better bolt shells... you get the idea.

 

Similarly, as Primaris are typically *not* veterans of any stretch (all/most having astutely *less* than two century's deployment experience), then how many of them temperamentally would actually be *fit* for Deathwatch service?

 

I'd go so far as to propose that, like Black Shields, a Primaris DW chappie would be markedly rarer than a DW Vet in Terminator Armour.

 

Hell, which Watch Fortresses would actually be equipped for it? You'd need Carl's minions, Techmarines etc. The only place I can think of properly suited for swift accommodation would be Terra & Talassa Prime. Everywhere else is... out in the cold.

 

---

 

All that said, if a lot of the prep for 7th was actually spent as pre-prep for 8th, I'd not be at all surprised if DW came 'third' after a couple of Xenos Codices. Or C:GSC->C:DW->C:Tyranids, a nice escalation and focus of theme.

[Scott_K]

 

Not only do I want to see Primaris get SIA, I also want to see them have access to combi weapons, special weapons, and heavy weapons.

Please god no. Just no. God no. Hell no. 

 

If you give Primadonna Marines SIA, access to heavy/special weapons then what is the point of taking Veterans? The entire codex would turn to "Primaris Marines and rest of the inferior Deathwatch". 

The less Super Space Marines in our Codex the better. Deathwatch isn't a chapter per se it is an organization. Every marine in DW should be a veteran marine who is sent to DW based on his skills - not because he is Goddamn Chad Marine. The entire idea of squads made entirely from Primaris Marines goes against the very idea of DW. Allowing upgrading veterans to a Primaris in a Kill team is a good idea, but please please please DO NOT turn this codex into: "This half is Deathwatch and this better half is Primaris stuff". 

 

The only thing that makes Veterans better than those awful, contrived, ugly and stupid Primaris marines is the fact that veterans have better Ld, have access to SIA, and variety of weapons - you take that away and half of our model line is useless.

 

What do we need is not more Primaris stuff, but points overhaul, some new transport/light infantry, and customizable HQs. Nothing more.

 

 

You seem pretty upset about Primaris Marines.  I get the impression that you should read this https://grief.com/the-five-stages-of-grief/

 

Now... according to the codex, some existing Space Marines have already been upgraded to Primaris.  It would be logical that those upgraded would come from HQ's, 1st Company, and then downward.

 

Following that logic, Primaris Marines from the 1st Company (you know, the Veterans you mentioned?) would be seconded to the Deathwatch.

 

I've already reached the Acceptance stage; I'm simply looking to the future.

[sockwithaticket]

 

 

Not only do I want to see Primaris get SIA, I also want to see them have access to combi weapons, special weapons, and heavy weapons.

Please god no. Just no. God no. Hell no. 

 

If you give Primadonna Marines SIA, access to heavy/special weapons then what is the point of taking Veterans? The entire codex would turn to "Primaris Marines and rest of the inferior Deathwatch". 

The less Super Space Marines in our Codex the better. Deathwatch isn't a chapter per se it is an organization. Every marine in DW should be a veteran marine who is sent to DW based on his skills - not because he is Goddamn Chad Marine. The entire idea of squads made entirely from Primaris Marines goes against the very idea of DW. Allowing upgrading veterans to a Primaris in a Kill team is a good idea, but please please please DO NOT turn this codex into: "This half is Deathwatch and this better half is Primaris stuff". 

 

The only thing that makes Veterans better than those awful, contrived, ugly and stupid Primaris marines is the fact that veterans have better Ld, have access to SIA, and variety of weapons - you take that away and half of our model line is useless.

 

What do we need is not more Primaris stuff, but points overhaul, some new transport/light infantry, and customizable HQs. Nothing more.

 

 

You seem pretty upset about Primaris Marines.  I get the impression that you should read this https://grief.com/the-five-stages-of-grief/

 

Now... according to the codex, some existing Space Marines have already been upgraded to Primaris.  It would be logical that those upgraded would come from HQ's, 1st Company, and then downward.

 

Following that logic, Primaris Marines from the 1st Company (you know, the Veterans you mentioned?) would be seconded to the Deathwatch.

 

I've already reached the Acceptance stage; I'm simply looking to the future.

 

You reckon? If I were experimenting with something like transforming exisiting marines into Primaris, I'd not start with my chapter's leaders and most proven warriors. Brother Matt from 8th company's 6th Tactical squad, sure; Veteran Sergeant Tharn who has 3 centuries of combat under his belt and numerous honorifics for his feats in battle, not so much. One of those two would be a much greater loss than the other if the process were unsuccessful or proved to later drive instability. The timeline is't advanced enough for us to know if the Primaris have any drawbacks, that would dissuade me from letting my chapter command vounteering to get the 'power up'.

 

 

[sockwithaticket]

Hell, which Watch Fortresses would actually be equipped for it? You'd need Carl's minions, Techmarines etc. The only place I can think of properly suited for swift accommodation would be Terra & Talassa Prime. Everywhere else is... out in the cold.

 

---

.

Presumably meant to be Cawl? I love the idea, though, of some hapless bloke called Carl in charge of wargear maintenance at a Watch Station trying to corral a bunch of Despicable Me minion-esque servitors into being useful.

 

Watch Captain - 'Damn it Carl, we need to go, but the Razorbacks are still up on blocks and the servitors are fencing with wrenches'

[TheUbikator]

 

 

Not only do I want to see Primaris get SIA, I also want to see them have access to combi weapons, special weapons, and heavy weapons.

Please god no. Just no. God no. Hell no. 

 

If you give Primadonna Marines SIA, access to heavy/special weapons then what is the point of taking Veterans? The entire codex would turn to "Primaris Marines and rest of the inferior Deathwatch". 

The less Super Space Marines in our Codex the better. Deathwatch isn't a chapter per se it is an organization. Every marine in DW should be a veteran marine who is sent to DW based on his skills - not because he is Goddamn Chad Marine. The entire idea of squads made entirely from Primaris Marines goes against the very idea of DW. Allowing upgrading veterans to a Primaris in a Kill team is a good idea, but please please please DO NOT turn this codex into: "This half is Deathwatch and this better half is Primaris stuff". 

 

The only thing that makes Veterans better than those awful, contrived, ugly and stupid Primaris marines is the fact that veterans have better Ld, have access to SIA, and variety of weapons - you take that away and half of our model line is useless.

 

What do we need is not more Primaris stuff, but points overhaul, some new transport/light infantry, and customizable HQs. Nothing more.

 

 

You seem pretty upset about Primaris Marines.  I get the impression that you should read this https://grief.com/the-five-stages-of-grief/

 

Now... according to the codex, some existing Space Marines have already been upgraded to Primaris.  It would be logical that those upgraded would come from HQ's, 1st Company, and then downward.

 

Following that logic, Primaris Marines from the 1st Company (you know, the Veterans you mentioned?) would be seconded to the Deathwatch.

 

I've already reached the Acceptance stage; I'm simply looking to the future.

 

Aside from terrible lore and awful models (barring intercessors), giving Chad Marines SIA and the rest of stuff is awful decision gameplay and rules wise. 

 

And I haven't started collecting Primaris Marines but Deathwatch (which veterans are already true scale btw :P ), and I would like very much to keep playing deathwatch and be able to ignore those horrible incest marines.

[N00BST4R]

I've tried to NOT use any Primaris, but I love the Dreadnought and think Inceptors look cool too.

[Mobius0288]

All this talk about primaris with deathwatch... I can see it being appropriate fluff-wise. You gotta advance the story, technology has to get better over time, better weapons are developed.... primaris is that technology for right now.

 

How does that apply in tabletop fashion? Well comparing regular tactical marines with primaris, then with DW veterans, there's definitely a points gap. Other's may argue differently, but I feel like the DW Vet cost needs to come down a few points. I mean look at Reivers. 100pts for a 5 man squad that can deep strike. That's cheaper then any effective/useful kill team you can design. So instead of 4-5 good kill teams and vehicles in a 2000 pt list, i can grab 2-3 kill teams and 3-4 reivers with a couple good vehicles. Why would I use reivers? Because it gets me more troops on the board, they have two wounds and I can deep strike the crap out of them. Do I need SIA with them? Nah, it would probably make them a little OP.

 

The concept can apply to other primaris units (hellblasters!) as well. Point is, give me a reason to use my kill teams. It's challenging when the scenario is almost always "special forces" vs an army. Give my vets a wound buff or reduce my point cost. With such high point costs, they're reducing are creativity with army designing. I can't create a solid back line of supporting fire without sacrificing my assaulting units. Objectives games are HARD because our durability is paired with short range firepower efficiency. Without reivers and assassins, I honestly feel like I'm back in 7th where DW should probably be taken as an ally. And that isn't even a true DW army.

 

Which leads into the codex... hoping to see some minor point reductions, some cool relics and strategums. That storm shield cost reduction would be sweet and make sure more unique, and maybe even less squishy in some cases. I'm not gonna hold my breath though. I think vanguard cost and the dragonfire SIA ability is what bugs me the most. And if I was king of the world, gimme a techmarine (or call him something else for datasheet's sake) for my kill team!!!

*EDIT: Also probably some kind of scout ability or deep strike ability/strategums to go with the whole "special forces" theme. They appear when they are ready to appear with the intentions of killing their target or completing their objective.

 

DW is fun, don't get me wrong. But I do like my share of winning battles and being competitive.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Mobius0288

[N00BST4R]

Veterans need their base cost reduced and SIA needs to be per model, those are almost the same issue since at present SIA is kind of a built in tax on all Veterans. I'm not anti-Primaris, but I'm more pro DW which are really expensive units for what they have access to.

[sockwithaticket]

The crux of their involvement for me is:
1) Fluffwise, with the setting only about 100 years into the existence of Primaris, how many of them are going to be veteran enough for a parent chapter to send them to the Deathwatch?
2) Points wise, given what Primaris cost vs. what veterans cost, the latter should be much cheaper and (to flog a dead horse) something needs to be done to divorce SIA from the veteran's basic points. My solution is further up, but pretty much anything would be fine, so long as a veteran with a weapon incapable of benefitting from SIA isn't paying for it.

[TheUbikator]

 

The concept can apply to other primaris units (hellblasters!) as well. Point is, give me a reason to use my kill teams. It's challenging when the scenario is almost always "special forces" vs an army. Give my vets a wound buff or reduce my point cost. With such high point costs, they're reducing are creativity with army designing. I can't create a solid back line of supporting fire without sacrificing my assaulting units. Objectives games are HARD because our durability is paired with short range firepower efficiency. Without reivers and assassins, I honestly feel like I'm back in 7th where DW should probably be taken as an ally. And that isn't even a true DW army.

(...)

DW is fun, don't get me wrong. But I do like my share of winning battles and being competitive.

I think this is the problem right there. I got the impression that designers don't exactly know which way to go with this faction. Deathwatch isn't an army, it is basically spec ops group. Most time in fluff a single kill team is being sent to a war zone. Most of the time DW supports other Imperial forces (Guard, Ad Mech regular marines). So the biggest problem is that designers want to give DW this elite feel, but you can't do that when you try to field entire army.

 

I've written about this on this very forum couple of times - but I'll say that again: Deathwatch works great when allied with Imperial Guard or Ad Mech. A single fully kitted Kill Team in Corvus Blackstar or Land Raider is a powerful counter punch or offensive tool. This is how should DW be used.

 

Just change how our vets are being priced, and half of our problems are gone. 13 points for a single vet, and boltguns and shotguns 5 points a piece for example. Suddenly kitting out vets for close combat doesn't look counterproductive. 

 

We don't need primaris marines, like I said there are better alternatives for board control than this. (I would argue that taking Primaris as separate detachment with Ravenguard/Black Templars/Imperial Fists/Salamanders chapter tactics would produce better results)

Edited August 24, 2017 by TheUbikator

[Prot]

The Deathwatch were very very close to being a proper codex. It just felt super rushed. It was a shell of a codex and wasn't playtested... the holes we found in the rules alone showed us all the evidence we needed.

 

There's no reason Primaris shouldn't have a spot in the army. I think if you've been stationed in a particularly heinous Xenos region and you have an extra heart and come crashing down from the sky with assault Heavy Bolters strapped to Your wrists, I'm sure the Deathwatch will strongly consider your application.

 

Ruleswise Primaris in no way make normal marines dismished in capacity within this edition. (Maybe in the future?)

 

The bad news is by the latest leak ( if you believe it) means no new codex for us until after Christmas.... that truly blows. Hopefully it's wrong.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Prot

[Moostick]

I saw those rumours too, so with all the time I have now, I committed the mistake of ordering from FW...The real sad thing is that I don't want to drop £250 to get free shipping all at once, but I know I will eventually spend that much anyways. I'm avoiding all customizable units until our codex drops as going from 7th to 8th Index was already a disaster. So pretty much only Reivers, vehicles and HQ.

 

I'm wishing for better assault units, and I'm really hoping they do us right in that direction. With Reivers and Vanguards dropping in, assault orientated Veterans coming in on Corvus/LR/Razorbacks, and accompanied by Infernus Predators and Chaplain/Leviathan Dreads. Would be so fun, but currently so bad.

[Irbis]

Is there any indication, lore-wise, if Carl-pattern bolt weaponry is actually compatible with standard issue ammunition, let alone special Issue?

 

Because if you have to re-purpose entire Hives to output better bolt shells... you get the idea.

Makes zero difference to DW, as their ammo is hand-crafted, supposedly, regardless of how stupid idea that would really be. Also, if anything, it's easier to fit complex warhead in larger calibre ammo, sooo...

 

Similarly, as Primaris are typically *not* veterans of any stretch (all/most having astutely *less* than two century's deployment experience), then how many of them

temperamentally would actually be *fit* for Deathwatch service?

 

All of them? You seem to forgot SM going into DW do actually need a lot of education and hypno-indoctrination before being sent on first mission. They are superior specimens, and I'd bet they actually are more open to good ideas than thick skulled marines from chapters so dead set in their ways a suggestion that howling like maniac and running at the enemy to stab them with sharp stick might not be the best way to fight is grave insult to them (looking at you, wolves). Not to mention two centuries is actually more than a lot of fluff captains get, sooo...

 

Primaris are actually vastly superior to vet marines in one other regard, they didn't marinated whole life in the sauce of their own chapter only, metaphorically speaking. Remember Roboute's idea to deploy them in combined squads consisting of all original legions? To primaris marine, fitting into Kill Team is effortless process he is deeply familiar with, not completely new, alien idea causing unending conflicts...

 

I'd go so far as to propose that, like Black Shields, a Primaris DW chappie would be markedly rarer than a DW Vet in Terminator Armour.

 

Hell, which Watch Fortresses would actually be equipped for it? You'd need Carl's minions, Techmarines etc. The only place I can think of properly suited for swift accommodation would be Terra & Talassa Prime. Everywhere else is... out in the cold.

 

All of them? They already have gear and armour, all you need is pamphlet for techmarines 'maintenance of Mk X gear and you', second for apothecaries 'new and exciting ways of caring for patients and geneseed extraction' and you're done. If anything, primaris chaplain would be vastly better fit for DW because of above, he already knows how to work with others, and knows beliefs of other chapters, instead of being fanatic who spent his whole life purging 'wrong' influences.

 

 

Aside from terrible lore and awful models (barring intercessors), giving Chad Marines SIA and the rest of stuff is awful decision gameplay and rules wise.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Irbis

[Xisor]

Schism!

 

There's at least a few stories that have Marines hitting the ground running when they join Deathwatch. A lot of the supposed "pros" of Carl Marines sound, to my ears, like recipes for disaster.

 

Open minded? New-fangled technology? Pioneering? Willing to try new things?

 

Perhaps Guilliman hasn't quite yet realised that those were "cons" that led quite squarely to the Heresy. Or perhaps Ahriman and Typhus and Erebus and Fabius and Sevatar were simply being too dogmatic and adherent to received wisdom?

 

My inclination is that the 'modern' Codex was rather good indeed. The Imperium trundle on.

 

---

 

As for hand-crafting warger - I'm not convinced. I know that's the case for the blessed ammo used by the Grey Knights, But for Kill Teams sent away for decades at a time, I just don't see the logistics being that... brittle.

 

Add in the possibility that Carl might be a bit proprietry with his shenanigans, I wouldn't be shocked if there was DRM on it all.

 

(And more: half the Cult of the Machine won't touch it with a barge pole.)

 

Now, that also has to be reconciled with, I think, the Deathwatch being a bit more... open source, even heretical in their remit. But I think those are irreconcilable Heresies. Monodominants who believe in killing all psykers (astropaths included) don't immediately fall into bed with people who think Chaos isn't that bad.

 

As such I still think there's a surfeit of reasons to view Primaris-Deathwatch as non-trivial. Not impossible, but not always easily done with no issue.

[Irbis]

Open minded? New-fangled technology? Pioneering? Willing to try new things?

These are also the qualities of marines who built Ultramar. Which is, kinda, no matter how you look at it, vastly better place to live than the rest of the Imperium.

 

I'll take it over close-minded PURGEMAIMKILLBURN of Templars/Wolves/Sharks/Marines Malevolent/Minotaurs and the rest of the crazed goon brigade, TYVM.

 

As for hand-crafting warger - I'm not convinced. I know that's the case for the blessed ammo used by the Grey Knights, But for Kill Teams sent away for decades at a time, I just don't see the logistics being that... brittle.

...

Now, that also has to be reconciled with, I think, the Deathwatch being a bit more... open source, even heretical in their remit. But I think those are irreconcilable Heresies.

 

Just open the codex. Yes, it's stupid, but the hand-crafted ammo is right there. Hell, in dumber pieces of fluff all bolter rounds are hand-crafts, everywhere...

As for heresy, what heresy? If there is anything heretical, it's opposing the word of Imperial Regent (guess who?), AND opposing the word of the prime Watch Fortress, Talasa, which by the way is in Ultramar, under direct command of guess who again. You don't even have the excuse of DW being puritan and opposing Xeno tech because at least Mk X armour and Cawlbolters are all Great Crusade era human tech...

[Xisor]

By the by, the Ultramarines instated the 500 Worlds. And promptly squandered it by failing to foresee the failings of others. And even then 500/1,000,000 is a pretty small fraction. I *think* the efforts of the remainder aren't as negligible nor ineffective as we might wish.

 

Lest we forget: open *any* 40k book. And see it written immediately. Lest we forget the words of Vulkan himself, a more enlightened Primarchs you likely will not find.

 

"Forget the promise of progress and understanding..."

 

----

 

I'm pretty certain headline Ordo Xenos and their kill teams will *cheerfully* recognise that explicit xenos involvement in the resurrection of Guilliman is *plenty* of reason to overlook the actions of the Imperial Regent.

 

Only Inquisitors speak with the voice of the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind.

 

----

 

And even then, Guilliman and þhe Inquisition aren't the only axes on which Heresy might be measured.

 

I suspect the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Ecclessiarchy aren't a united front behind either the supposed "Archmagos" Carl or xenos-friend Lord Commander Guilliman Guilliman...

 

----

 

I have every faith I will be vindicated come the Codex. Carl-pattern stuff will have technical distinctions preventing easy interface with existing equipment (digital rights management, woo!), and that only a relatively small number of the Primaris are suitable for and reliable in inclusion with the Deathwatch. Mark my words!

 

(I'll also buy a hat so I can eat it, if need be.)

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

Much like fetch, Carl Marines will never be a thing.

[Prot]

Similarly, as Primaris are typically *not* veterans of any stretch (all/most having astutely *less* than two century's deployment experience), then how many of them temperamentally would actually be *fit* for Deathwatch service?

 

---

 

 

 

 

So in your opinion what constitutes a "Vet'? 210 years of service? 327 years? 

 

I don't agree with the idea of once you hit year "X" you get your vet stamp and access to the DW club.

 

A vet can be defined by the service provided.

 

Plus we know for a fact some of the Primaris are very old. The experiments started in secret a very long time ago. Guilliman was aware of them before going into statsis.

 

Plus 2.0: we know that traditional marines can be retrofitted.

 

Bottom line, this is the direction of GW moving the model line into the future. I think it's safe to say this is a reality. I'm sure you'll always be allowed to use standard marines. GW is good that way. But I would say to anyone that hates Primaris marines it's probably a good idea to snap up what you like from the marine line in the next... 24 months.

 

The idea of arguing against Primaris in Deathwatch is moot from a 'fluff' perspective. That's going to be a personal decision on behalf of every player. Inevitably they are here. 

 

Practically speaking they do fit into a very specialized role. I use them almost exclusively in my Ultra's, and they do very little that traditional marines don't handle on their own.  Combine that with transport issues and I really don't see a threat to the traditional marine.

 

Short version: Traditional marines are going to be just fine. If you hate Primaris, don't buy them. Just be aware there's a chance the traditional marines get harder to buy in the coming years.

[N00BST4R]

Just a quick snippet - I don't see GW discontinuing their hallmark poster faction any time soon. If anything I see them updating the entire SM lineup again. Looking at some of my Tactical SMs compared to my KT guys, the detail level and proportions are a LOT better on the KT models; especially when I looking at the late 90s stuff...

[Xisor]

 

 

Similarly, as Primaris are typically *not* veterans of any stretch (all/most having astutely *less* than two century's deployment experience), then how many of them temperamentally would actually be *fit* for Deathwatch service?

 

---

 

 

 

So in your opinion what constitutes a "Vet'? 210 years of service? 327 years?

 

I don't agree with the idea of once you hit year "X" you get your vet stamp and access to the DW club.

 

A vet can be defined by the service provided.

 

Plus we know for a fact some of the Primaris are very old. The experiments started in secret a very long time ago. Guilliman was aware of them before going into statsis.

 

Plus 2.0: we know that traditional marines can be retrofitted.

 

Bottom line, this is the direction of GW moving the model line into the future. I think it's safe to say this is a reality. I'm sure you'll always be allowed to use standard marines. GW is good that way. But I would say to anyone that hates Primaris marines it's probably a good idea to snap up what you like from the marine line in the next... 24 months.

 

The idea of arguing against Primaris in Deathwatch is moot from a 'fluff' perspective. That's going to be a personal decision on behalf of every player. Inevitably they are here.

 

Practically speaking they do fit into a very specialized role. I use them almost exclusively in my Ultra's, and they do very little that traditional marines don't handle on their own. Combine that with transport issues and I really don't see a threat to the traditional marine.

 

Short version: Traditional marines are going to be just fine. If you hate Primaris, don't buy them. Just be aware there's a chance the traditional marines get harder to buy in the coming years.

Incidentally, I've heard this asserted a few times, but I'm not sure I recall the exact mentions for retrofitting of existing Marines to be Primaris. Entirely possible I've overlooked that sort of thing, even in looking for it.

 

---

 

Anyway, my reasoning, if it can be so called, is merely along the line that: there's likely to be some statistic available to chapters to determine when they consider offering up to Deathwatch.

 

Unsurprisingly, it would also not be a hard and fast "kill 15,000 Xenos in your first two hundred years and you can be eligible for a free holiday to Talasa Prime" sort of rule.

 

But, with only 200 years "open" to Guilliman's supposed new folk, that's an immediate threshold.

 

It rests heavy on vague assumptions, but the converse necessities would be interesting: what sort of action would the Primaris have had to undergo to be eligible?

 

Trained solid for 10,000 years because Carl is crap at checking whether he actually put everyone in stasis?

 

Involved in covert galactic ops over 10k years?

 

Fought sufficiently as part of the Crusades between the end of the Noctis Aeterna and some later point?

 

-----

 

Anyway, I'd broadly concur despite all that. Of course *some* Will have - but on balance the question we're individually coming to some sort of statement on is: "how many Primaris is a reasonable, plausible number?".

 

A few entire Watch Fortresses that are purely Primaris, plus plenty of mixed forces? I imagine we'll find out, but I think it's damn interesting.

 

(And as time goes on, I'd expect the balance to more and more favour the Primaris.)

[Scott_K]

 

Not only do I want to see Primaris get SIA, I also want to see them have access to combi weapons, special weapons, and heavy weapons.

Just curious - how much do you want them to cost?

 

According to the fluff the Deathwatch are the best of the best, with the most advanced equipment the Inquisition can issue.  I would use the Intercessor profile with bolt rifles, Special Issue Ammunition as a Chapter Tactic for all Deathwatch, and adjust their profile to reflect this with WS2+, BS2+, SV2+.  I would increase their points cost to 25-30 points each.