Chances and thoughts on Deathwatch codex in 8th?

[Moostick]

They probably won't stack buffs like that. SIA is our offensive thing, so unless they revamp DW entirely, there's no reason they'd give us a second offensive trait.

 

It'd be either get rid of SIA and replace it with something else, or work around making DW more viable with SIA. I'm just hoping they didn't care so little that all they did was reduce SIA costs and call it a day.

[TheUbikator]

Army-wide re-rolling 1s to wound against Xenos would be nice, and thematic. And some mission tactics as our gimmick.

[Polak]

I can see mission tactics becoming strategems, makes sense seeing how they kind of worked similar that way before.

 

As for Army-wide re-rolling 1s to wound against Xenos, sounds a bit too OP, I can maybe see it in the form of a bubble like say on a Lieutenant. But not just like that, instead I think they will keep on tinkering at SIA and Kill-team bonuses.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if the kill-teams of old will get various separate unit entries in our codex again. It's an easy way to fill up our unit choice without having to produce new models, then we'll get some more SM units that we didn't have access before to, and who knows a Primaris Kill-team.

[Matt_149]

If terminators went to 1-5 for unit composition then that may help. The ability to have one terminator with cyclone missile launcher or plasma cannon to deepstrike would add an extra element I think.

[Azaiel]

How about Kill Team Cassius?

 

Will it be a "special character"-squad?

[Polak]

If terminators went to 1-5 for unit composition then that may help. The ability to have one terminator with cyclone missile launcher or plasma cannon to deepstrike would add an extra element I think.

 

We had that back in 7th, same with bikes and even vanguard veterans. Doubt they will revert a change like that. Even custodes don't get 1 man units unless they use a strategem.

 

I can understand why they removed the option, it would be very easy to farm CP that way. We'd be even cheaper than guard at it!

[Matt_149]

I don't know, 3 termies and an hq would be over 200 points for 1cp?

[Polak]

I don't know, 3 termies and an hq would be over 200 points for 1cp?

 

It's more about being easier to fill out a Brigade detachment, which is +9 cp. Currently I don't think we can manage it properly due to how expensive our things are. But if you could take single termies, vanguard, bikes, then you only need to run a few cheap min kill team squads and add a few elites.

[Xisor]

I've been thinking a bit about this. DW being able to take lots of small units makes a lot of sense. Lots of lone specialists supporting a handful of core units - sounds right to me.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

They probably won't stack buffs like that. SIA is our offensive thing, so unless they revamp DW entirely, there's no reason they'd give us a second offensive trait.

 

It'd be either get rid of SIA and replace it with something else, or work around making DW more viable with SIA. I'm just hoping they didn't care so little that all they did was reduce SIA costs and call it a day.

 

I'd like for SIA to become based on stratagems instead of firing modes. Mainly to lower the base cost cost of our guys, and to make the effects more powerful.

 

How about Kill Team Cassius?

 

Will it be a "special character"-squad?

 

I hope that they make some of them into characters. Give us a tool box like Deathguard have where we customize our armies based on characters with new auras. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Black_Star

[LordCommanderSamirus]

Making SIA based on stratagems wouldn't work for us. We're to expensive to be able to get many command points so we'd run out really quickly. Edited February 3, 2018 by LordCommanderSamirus

[spacewatch]

Making SIA based on stratagems wouldn't work for us. We're to expensive to be able to get many command points so we'd run out really quickly.

 

I too think that SIA should be available everyone in Deathwatch by default not by strategem. As an example in my latest list I have 32 Vets so without SIA "penalty" I'd probably get 96 extra pts which in practice means one more squad with one combi-plasma or four power weapon. This squad would give me between 25 - 50 extra shots depending how I deploy them which is nothing compared to 160 - 320 shots my 32 Vets are able to shoot. Based on this I'd be very happy if we could get slightly cheaper Vets meaning couple of extra plasma or melta weapons and better SIA meaning more effective shooting overall. One way to make SIA better would be to give Vengeance AP3 or S5 or both. This way Vengeance would work, not very well though, against vehicles and termies/similar.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Making SIA based on stratagems wouldn't work for us. We're to expensive to be able to get many command points so we'd run out really quickly.

 

That is a structural flaw with command points I that I expect them to fix. Marines are the most popular fraction so they will find a way to get them more.

 

It also makes it easier to integrate Primaris

 

 

I too think that SIA should be available everyone in Deathwatch by default not by strategem. As an example in my latest list I have 32 Vets so without SIA "penalty" I'd probably get 96 extra pts which in practice means one more squad with one combi-plasma or four power weapon. This squad would give me between 25 - 50 extra shots depending how I deploy them which is nothing compared to 160 - 320 shots my 32 Vets are able to shoot. Based on this I'd be very happy if we could get slightly cheaper Vets meaning couple of extra plasma or melta weapons and better SIA meaning more effective shooting overall. One way to make SIA better would be to give Vengeance AP3 or S5 or both. This way Vengeance would work, not very well though, against vehicles and termies/similar.

 

 

How are you estimating the extra shots, is it based on how long they will last? Not really sure how to respond without that context (32 guys getting 160-320 shots because of SIA just seems off to me).

 

As far as units like terminators/vehicles a stratagem based SIA could be a great solution because it can be tailored a bit more aggressively to your target without throwing the codex out of balance.

[spacewatch]

 

How are you estimating the extra shots, is it based on how long they will last? Not really sure how to respond without that context (32 guys getting 160-320 shots because of SIA just seems off to me).

 

You're right, I should have been more specific. Yes, my numbers were quick estimation but based on experiences gained from real games. Of course total of 300+ shots is not typical but I've had a game where I really managed to shoot 320 shots using bolter weapons. And now I'm calculating storm bolters and characters (pistols) because of my "SIA for everyone by default" phrase. In real games my Vets shoot ~250 SIA shots over the course of 5 rounds on average and yes some of them are dying too. I have 5-6 Stalker bolters in my backfield team and 6 more in two midfield teams. These together give 80-100 shots depending on how I deploy/disembark from vehicles. Then I have 10 vets with reqular Boltgun giving 60-70 shots. I also use Terminators as meat shields and 4 Bikes to grab objectives. On average Termies give 20-26 shots and Bikers 44-50 shots. Rest of the models (10) have combi-weapons or pistols. Combi-flamers shoot mostly SIA whereas combi-plasma/melta Vets shoot SIA only around 1/3 of the time. This gives 30-36 shots and then there are couple of pistol Vets (Vanguards) and Watch Master. This all gives 236-284 SIA shots on average (checked my last 10 games). I understand that this amount of shots is possible partly because we have high buildings that give good LOS for Stalkers and I mainly play against the Orcs (and IG) that lack shooting range on average have only Sv6+ save which makes Hellfire&Stalker-combination shine. If I could use SIA say only 4-5 times during the game using stratagems then SIA would totally useless for me. That being said I totally understand that there are other type of armies too and strategem-boosted SIA could be better solution against these armies.

[Moostick]

I think the thing is no reasonable person would waste precious CP on SIA for a single unit unless they get a HUGE buff. With our typical MSU, it only adds to how unattractive that would be.

 

Definitely not going to blow 1 CP for a unit of 5 to shoot S4 rapid fire 1 shots.

[Xisor]

Special issue is the key there - they're not given out willy-nilly, only used where actually appropriate.

 

I think we're trapped in a weird halfway house between classic =][= special ammo, and modern glossing-over-the-details stuff.

 

Imagine we switch to DW Veterans just being quipped with Special Issue Bolters (as per Sternguard), with SIA being a 1CP stratagem that lets any one unit's bolt weapons To Wound-rolls of 6+ deal Mortal Wounds.

 

Now, suddenly SIA as Strategem becomes appetising.

 

Or some variation. And having some concentrations of bolt weapons in your force may be very effective. But as you only have finite CPs, and other Strategems will exist, that might just be one tool in the arsenal.

 

You get the idea.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think the thing is no reasonable person would waste precious CP on SIA for a single unit unless they get a HUGE buff. With our typical MSU, it only adds to how unattractive that would be.

 

Definitely not going to blow 1 CP for a unit of 5 to shoot S4 rapid fire 1 shots.

 

Yeah it has to be good (great even). There just isn't a toughness perk that really makes sense fluffwise that meshes with our strengths. -1 to hit is the best example but we want to be within 12" with our current design.

 

Right now we spend a premium for special ammunition, and the ability to mx squads. Neither is particularly good and I think the army needs to change a lot if its every going to work great.

[Cap'm Heckus]

Feel our strategims should involve special deployment, targeting HQs and unique xeno weapons, not taking away what little we already have and making us pay to use it.

 

I’d love to see Primaris get something like SIA (maybe a modified version since a few of their guns already mimic it) and some more weapon options.

 

Maybe a DW specific dreadnought or tank variant.

[Xisor]

I'm still of the idea that it makes perfect sense to lock-in all the other Marine Codices as fairly 'by the book', and then have Deathwatch be a sort of mad, anything goes, go-wild sort of kitbashing heaven/nightmare.

 

E.g. I keep feeling my heart sink each time I look at Page 171 of the Index Imperium - why, oh why, does Deathwatch have peculiar restrictions like 'no combi-grav' and 'no jump-pack librarians'.

 

Instead, it feels a lot more like we should have - I don't quite no, but my gut says: anything you can feasibly kit bash and slap a DW shoulder-pad/icon on, should probably be viable. (Best value when combining bog-standard Vets with a Watch Master and Corvus, but everything else at least be viable, or permitted.)

 

Like: Librarian Dreadnoughts.

 

Perhaps if DW's <Mission Tactic> became the identifier? I mean, they could do it daft like <Forge World> (yeah, the entire famously non-homogeneous, feudal and fractious billions of a Forge World all fight the same way) and separate the Watch Fortresses by Keyword.

 

E.g. Keyword <Talassa Prime> gets a bonus that really only benefits Fly keywords (emphasising flyers & jump packs), another that provides a detachment-wide bonus to Infantry, another to Vehicles and so forth. Or something a bit like that.

 

That is: they're not really equals (hence I don't really think it's sensible to segregate them by Watch Fortress, rather Killteam configuration/focus), where you effectively have 3x2 Vanguard Veterans, a Chaplain in Scout Armour with a couple of pals in a Land Speeder Storm forming a little Outrider Detachment Kill Team that is moving in support of a Wallbreaker team of a Gravis-armoured Deathwatch Captain with four lonesome Terminators (one of whom is a Techmarine, another an Apothecary) teleporting in alongside some other daft thing.

[Fanatic Xenophobe]

I'm hoping terminators get to use combi-weapons, so its possible to equip them with combi-meltas + meltafist, just because it would be cool.

I'm hoping for terminators to have the ability to be deployed as individual models, and that the terminator squad can be minimum size 3 instead of 5.

 

I'm hoping special issue ammunition is a wargear that costs 2 pts per model (or some such).

I'm hoping for full customization for characters. Terminator armor, jump pack, combi-weapons, HTH etc. Deathwatch without full customization is boring.

I'm hoping hoping regular veterans won't be more expensive than Primaris, and with 1 less Wounds.

I'm hoping for a new character/elite "Warden/Watcher", that is essentially a 3-4 Wound model with full customization. Not a HQ.

I REALLY hope that it won't matter which chapters our veterans come from. Special rules for a kill team depending on which chapters are included would be terrible, because I don't want to have to remodel my veterans, and it would discourage the free creativity with modelling your DW veterans' chapters.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Fanatic Xenophobe