Grimaldus in 8th

[Kisada]

Got into a discussion about Grimaldus vs Asmodai when playing against my Dark Angels buddy last night.

 

I'm on chapter 5 of Helsreach and don't know anything about Asmodai ...

 

Is there a reason in the fluff why Asmodai has a better ability than Grimaldus?

[redmapa]

Grimaldus gives the possibility of more attacks while Asmodai gives a more reliable bonus, I dont think its 'better', I think its different and to be honest there's only so many ways to make a Chaplain character unique without giving them 'war hymns' type of abilities.

 

I believe Asmodai has been a  High Chaplain longer than Grimaldus so perhaps there's that if you wish to justify having one character be 'better' than another.

[Ebon Hand]

Perhaps he is older and more experienced? Not just in the background but in real life as well. He also outranks him. Asmodai is Master of Sanctity tier, a step up from Reclusiarch, so Asmodai is to Grimaldus as a Chapter Master is to Captain.

[MyD4rkPassenger]

Asmodai might be one of the angriest and zealous marines I've seen, his devotion to hunting fallen is bar none (even if he doesn't have the most repentances under his belt).  I think that Grimaldus does more in the long run (those blades of reason Asmodai have still are too random) on his own merit and buffing our own units.  Not to say I don't like Asmodai, as if I played the DA I'd definitely want to use him with the deathwing knights.

Edited July 19, 2017 by MyD4rkPassenger

[Kisada]

Thanks for the replies. I figured there must be a fluff reason and that rank reason makes sense.

 

Asmodai gives a straight up +1 attack to infantry and bike units where as Grimaldus would only be giving those same units a possibility of an extra attack on a to hit of 6 ...

 

However Grimaldus' ability isn't restricted to infantry and bikes ... so dreads and vehicles would also benefit

[MyD4rkPassenger]

I would also venture to say that Asmodai is harder to get into position than Grimaldus.  He can't deep strike with terminators, or get a bike to keep up with the raven wing, he has to ride in a transport with say the deathwing knights, keeping him with tac marines seems almost a waste of his amazing buff.  Grimaldus fits in any transport with what I generally think is his best target, the crusader squad.

Edited July 19, 2017 by MyD4rkPassenger

[Kisada]

900+ point eggs in one basket!

 

Grimaldus and Helbrecht with two 5 man Crusader squads with thunder hammers and power axes

Riding in a Stormraven

With an Ironclad Dread hanging off the back

[Kilamandaros]

900+ point eggs in one basket!

 

Grimaldus and Helbrecht with two 5 man Crusader squads with thunder hammers and power axes

Riding in a Stormraven

With an Ironclad Dread hanging off the back

 

Replace the Crusaders with Vanguard vets (sword brothers) - 5 extra attacks per squad.

 

Also don't forget the thunder hammers don't work with Grimaldus' ability - give your vet sword brother lightning claws for the extra attacks!

[bolvar]

You also don't need axes if Helbrecht is around, grab some power swords, keep wounding at 3+ against T4 and have AP -3

[Acebaur]

I don't necessarily think that Master of Sanctity is a higher position than Reclusiarch. In fact if it may be the other way around, at least with the Templars. Read Helsreach and Eternal Crusader and it's heavily implied that being Reclurisarch is the highest position among chaplains. I mean he is part of Helbrecht's inner circle of Knights. If it wasn't the highest position would he still be in there?

 

Edit: Regarding his rules vs Asmodai, I believe that Asmodai is a good bit more expensive so that would explain the difference in rules(30 something points?)

Edited July 19, 2017 by Acebaur

[Lysere]

I think a big part of the issue with rank is Templars are organized quite a bit differently. While technically Asmodai might be a higher rank, Grimaldus is the personal chaplain of Helbrecht himself. (At least from what I remember) There really isn't a higher spot a chaplain could be in despite being a reclusiarch.

 

Also I do believe Asmodai effects models not units but I could be wrong. The price increase alone justifies the extra attack bubble though.

[Kisada]

Asmodai is 25 pts more and affects units not models.

 

Other differences.

Asmodai has the blades of reason, 1 extra wound, -1 Leadership bubble.

Grimaldus has a plasma pistol.

 

Don't get me wrong. Not trying to be negative about Grimaldus. Was really just seeking the fluffy reason behind what I felt was a stronger buff on Asmodai versus our Grimaldus.

 

Good point about Grimaldus being the highest ranked chaplain of the Black Templars. Maybe it's Age/experience? Just started Helsreach and he's relatively young in that book and just recently takes the rank of reclusiarch

[redmapa]

Grimaldus is actually older than Helbrecht, he was a Sword Brethren in the Vinculus Crusade while Helbrecht was a scout around that time.

[Ebon Hand]

Yes its weird with the Templars because each crusade can be the size of a chapter.

 

So while a Marshal is not a chapter master in the Black Templars (that would be the High Marshal), he can wield power comparable to a chapter master of a codex chapter, while a Castellan would be arguably comparable to a Captain or Lieutenant. As a technicality, a Chapter Master outranks a Marshal, albeit probably not in the eyes of a Black Templar.

 

Similarly, a Reclusiarch is the top Chaplain of a particular Fortress Monastery, in Grimaldus' case the Eternal Crusader itself. However, if Black Templars had a Master of Sanctity (not sure if they do), then he would outrank all other chaplains in the chapter including Grimaldus.

 

This is why I think Asmodai outranks Grimaldus. Asmodai is the Master Interrogator Chaplain of the Dark Angels, no one out ranks him in the Dark Angels except Asrael. Plus, his time in service goes all the way back to the Macharian crusade.

 

Now you wouldn't find any Templar licking Asmodai's boots, though they would keep it professional and show deference to his rank. As soon as they kindly explain what the hell happened to the Ophidium Gulf. Until they do, Dark Angels can stick their Blades of Reason up their you know what.

[Honda]

Now you wouldn't find any Templar licking Asmodai's boots, though they would keep it professional and show deference to his rank. As soon as they kindly explain what the hell happened to the Ophidium Gulf.

 

 

This.

[Othniel's Blade]

Fluff-wise, Asmodai is more the #2 in the DA Chaplaincy, though Sapphon has no model. Asmodai is the more active and front-line in the Hunt though.

 

I think once you account for the cultural differences, Grimaldus would outrank Asmodai; but given the autonomy of Chapters, and their veteran status as both Marines and Chaplains, it would lead to more of a respectful equality and/or Asmodai deferring Only nominally to protocol.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Othniel's Blade

[Castellan Doren]

 

Now you wouldn't find any Templar licking Asmodai's boots, though they would keep it professional and show deference to his rank. As soon as they kindly explain what the hell happened to the Ophidium Gulf.

 

This.

I was out of the loop for too long and had to read up on it.

 

After reading, this kids is why you never trust a dark angel.

[Ebon Hand]

Ah I didn't know the Dark Angels had an actual Master Chaplain besides Asmodai. In that case I think they would be equal if Black Templars have a Master of Sanctity, and Grimaldus would outrank him if they don't.

 

I torn on whether Black Templars would have a Master of Sanctity though. Plenty of less zealous chapters do, but as Ace says, it's implied Grimaldus is at the top of the chain of command. I have to read Eternal Crusader, I just recently got it.

[Kisada]

 

 

Now you wouldn't find any Templar licking Asmodai's boots, though they would keep it professional and show deference to his rank. As soon as they kindly explain what the hell happened to the Ophidium Gulf.

This.

I was out of the loop for too long and had to read up on it.

 

After reading, this kids is why you never trust a dark angel.

 

 

Looks like its gonna be a slow night at work tonight ... I'll read up on it tonight.

 

Funny that my Dark Angel friend has never mentioned it before lol

[Acebaur]

So doing a quick read through of Eternal Crusader's beginning reinforces what I thought. The BT do indeed have a Master of Sanctity(Theoderic) and it seems as though it is a position beneath that of Reclusiarch. 

 

Here is the passage which implies that. 

 

‘Other matters await you, High Marshal. Have you given any thought to the matter of Mordred the Avenger’s replacement? We wish to inter his remains within the Sepulcrum Ultimus. His soul deserves rest – he was a good man, and a bold warrior.’

‘No doubt you have ideas of your own as to who should be the next Reclusiarch,’ said Helbrecht.

‘Not at all, brother,’ said Theoderic, careful not to rise to Helbrecht’s insinuation. ‘The choice is yours and yours alone. You are the High Marshal of the Black Templars – the divine will of the Emperor works through you, not I. I will not make any suggestion as to who you should elevate. You will have my opinion in the Inner Circle as ritual demands, not before.’

‘Should it be you, perhaps, Theoderic?’

‘If that is the Emperor’s will, so be it. If not, then that is also the Emperor’s will.’

 

 

 

 

So the fact that Helbrecht asks him whether he thinks he should be Reclusiarch says to me that it would be a promotion for him, because if it were a position below, why would he even ask?

[redmapa]

huh, that is weird because even in the old codex Master of Sanctity was an upgrade for a Reclusiarch though that could be chalked up to GW simply copy pasting the entry from the SM codex.

 

Maybe its not really a promotion but a rank with different role, maybe the Master of Sanctity is in charge of the Chaplaincy and its rites while the Reclusiarch is more of a military role in charge of overseeing the troops at large and aiding the High Marshall. Maybe ADB made a mistake, we might never know.

[Lysere]

I feel the Master of Sanctity is technically a higher rank, but as a Templar is the less desirable position in the same way that the Master of the Forge would probably be.

 

While such roles would see battle when necessary it is the job of the Marshals and Reclusiarachs to do battle on a constant basis. As Templars are all about continuing the crusade it has probably somewhat twisted the origin of the two ranks the other way around. So while the Master of Sanctity is the highest ranking Chaplain on a technical level his duties are probably mostly non combat which is counter to the focus of the Templars.

 

That and being the chaplain directly serving Helbrecht as a massive war is about to unfold is probably the greatest single position to be in considering how few chaplains there seem to be. I mean look at the number of Marshals involved yet there is only one Reclusiarch.

[Kisada]

I feel the Master of Sanctity is technically a higher rank, but as a Templar is the less desirable position in the same way that the Master of the Forge would probably be.

 

While such roles would see battle when necessary it is the job of the Marshals and Reclusiarachs to do battle on a constant basis. As Templars are all about continuing the crusade it has probably somewhat twisted the origin of the two ranks the other way around. So while the Master of Sanctity is the highest ranking Chaplain on a technical level his duties are probably mostly non combat which is counter to the focus of the Templars.

 

That and being the chaplain directly serving Helbrecht as a massive war is about to unfold is probably the greatest single position to be in considering how few chaplains there seem to be. I mean look at the number of Marshals involved yet there is only one Reclusiarch.

 

I can see that point of view being correct.  There's an example of those types of views at the beginning of Helsreach

 

Grimaldus is depressed at the start of Helsreach because Helbrecht sends him to Helsreach instead of allowing him to take part in the glorious battle against the orks in space.

[Kastor Krieg]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Master_of_Sanctity

The Master of Sanctity, also styled High Chaplain, is the head of the Chaplaincy in a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes and head of the Chapter Cult. One of the Masters of the Chapter, the Master of Sanctity oversees the spiritual health of the Chapter by assigning Chaplains to the Companies. Immediately beneath him is the Reclusiarch, the head of the Reclusiam[1].

 

Master of Sanctity is a Chapter-encompassing rank, on par with the Master of the Fleet, Master of the Forge, Master of Signals, etc.; However, while it is ABOVE the Reclusiarch in the structure, or rather OUTSIDE of the structure, he doesn't exactly RANK him. The Reclusiarch, like Merek Grimaldus, is the de facto boss of all Chaplains, as he chiefs the whole of the Reclusiam. 

 

It's pretty complex, but basically I see that MoS and all other Masters in their respective fields, are like "Sergeant Majors of the Army". Do they exactly top and rank a regular field General? Nope. But they sure have quite a lot of sway over one "from the sidelines", outside the Reclusiam structure.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Kastor Krieg

[Othniel's Blade]

Even officers yield to the Sergeant Major if they know what's good for them

 

Edit: slippy fingers

Edited July 20, 2017 by Othniel's Blade