Will CSM get the "Primaris" treatment?

[Brother Aiwass]

Just found this on the internet:

With 3 boxes of reivers I could update all my unassembled (that is, all of them) BaC marines for CSM ^_^

[Ahistorian]

I would love CSM with Primaris proportions, whether HH or DV style.

[the jeske]

I've always argued for a more clearly daemonic look for official chaos marine stuff in 40k.  Loyalist and 30k lines exist for players who want a clean look, but there's not a lot of options for properly daemonic chaos marines otherwise.  Plus, I like chaos marines to show their ten thousand years of warp exposure without the protective effects of faith in the Emperor.  IMO it painfully undercuts the power of chaos if simply turning up your nose at the gods is enough to insulate you from any deleterious effects of spending ten millennia of living in their house and fighting alongside them.

 

Well it depends what demonic is suppose to mean. If it suddenly means that AL or IW look like DV chosen, then we may have a problem as far as looks go. And there also lays the problem with csm. Something that is ok for BL or some mutated renegade group, does not fit the art of fluff of other legions. A demonic or half possessed look for WB can be awesome, when converted and painted real well. using the same on AL makes it feel as if someone painted their models the wrong way.

[Sception]

Look, again, the 30k and loyalist 40k lines are still available for people who want to pretend that 10 millennia of exposure to chaos wouldn't have any visible affect on the traitor legions.  For those who want to believe that iron warriors could go through all that time replacing every spontaneous mutation with cybernetics and still have anything left at the end.  And not only the loyalist models, but the loyalist rules as well are available for any alpha legion player who still goes in for the the memehammer secret loyalist garbage.

 

Let the chaos marines be chaos marines.  If you want non-chaos marines, its only like 50% of all rules and models published by GW/FW already.

 

IMO, chaos should drop the chaos-hating parts of Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords fluff.  For one, it was always contradicted by half of the rest of their fluff: Alpha Legion doesn't have mutations, and yet they make a special point of hiding their mutations under capes and such only to dramatically reveal them as a terror tactic in battle.  Iron Warriors hate daemons and sorcery and mutation, but are all about daemonic sorcerous technology and war machines, and their most iconic unit, Obliterators, are among the /most/ heavily mutated units in the entire line.  Every single individual night lord is a grumpy, chaos hating, stick in the mud hold out shaking his head at the willing embrace of daemonic corruption displayed by literally every other member of their legion.  Seriously, the night lords problem of each individual somehow being the emo exception to their debauched and evil kin long ago reached the kind of self-parody tier previously reserved for Drizzt Do'Urden clones.

 

No.  No no no.  NO.  No more.  It has to stop.  We have to be done with this.  If I were in charge of things, anti chaos chaos marines would be done, dead and over, clean break.  No more.  Maybe there were some hold outs when they first went into the eye, but in the 10,000 years since those hold outs either died or saw the light.  I wouldn't care if it caused a rift with the CSM community as bad as Age of Sigmar caused with fantasy players.  The only 'maybe secret loyalists, non chaos chaos marines' would be Fallen Angels, and they'd get their own separate codex and figure line (conversion kit really, to build their stuff from the loyalist dark angel kits).  All other chaos marines in 40k would be CHAOS marines, horns, spikes, toothy maws, jagged trim, chaos marks, clawed tentacles, daemonic wargear, the works.

 

And yeah, maybe some old chaos players would quit.  Oh well.  I'm tired of this or that legion not being chaos enough getting used as an excuse for why the entire model line should be held back.

Edited December 6, 2017 by malisteen

[Ahistorian]

IMO, chaos should drop the chaos-hating parts of Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords fluff. ...  Every single individual night lord is a grumpy, chaos hating, stick in the mud hold out shaking his head at the willing embrace of daemonic corruption displayed by literally every other member of their legion.  Seriously, the night lords problem of each individual somehow being the emo exception to their debauched and evil kin long ago reached the kind of self-parody tier previously reserved for Drizzt Do'Urden clones.

 

You read my heart

[Sception]

You read my heart

[hushrong]

I'm still shoulder-shrugging about the Primaris. I remember all the rumors of 40K would be changed drastically after Age of Sigmar came out. Well, the rules changed and we got new Stormcast Eternals. I do not hate them as much as I used to but I still feel they were not necessary. Regardless of that how I feel they're here now. My only hope is in the fluff something happen's to Cawl's primaris facility that just ruins the process and no more can be made...but that's me day dreaming.

 

So fluff wise I think it will happen. Sadly it is only a matter of time. Bile will get all the fleshy bits he needs to make another brand of new and improved enhanced marines. We also know he can do it if he can clone more complicated specimen. Somehow they will be able to take salvaged MKX armor and scavenge them or reverse engineer them to equip them. Hopefully it will not be for a good while.

 

Miniatures wise it looks like our plastics are getting better (most of them anyways) and bigger. Dark Vengeance were slightly larger. I remember Brother Heinrich's Night Lords that he would scale up and the DV chosen were close enough without having to do anything. The Thousand Sons have straighter legs and minus their headdress they were a bit taller than our venerable CSM kit. Now with the DG we see how big they've gotten. I'm still head over heels about the Deathshroud and how huge they are. I would like to wager that anything new we will get shall be bigger than our older kits but not to the scale of the primaris minis.

 

I do not mind an upscaled Chaos Marine...really at this point I would sacrifice a planet just to get a new kit of Chaos Space Marines...and Chosen. And possessed. Oh, new obliterators would be nice. Havocs too...or just get us an upgrade sprue for heavy weapons.

 

 I'm tired of this or that legion not being chaos enough getting used as an excuse for why the entire model line should be held back.

Is this an actual statement from GW?

[the jeske]

 

And yeah, maybe some old chaos players would quit.  Oh well.  I'm tired of this or that legion not being chaos enough getting used as an excuse for why the entire model line should be held back.

The slick chaos models like IW look characterful and good. The chaotic chaos models they did like the DV are butt ugly, rather have no new models, then get an ugly update and then be told by everyone "look chaos already got X" . The "chaos got X" excuse was used over and over again. But you got helldrakes, but you got magnus, but there is new DG/1ksons etc those things actually do push stuff back, and if instead of getting nice non overcrowded models, someone wants to get ugly ones, then there is green stuff, plasticard and the DG model line.

 

A slick model can be moded, can be converted, an overcrowed new-style one can not. And GW is not know for being able to do good looking models with a lot of detail. Sometimes they do, and the models can be a gem, but if someone want to imagine how new zerkers would look like, they already exist in the AoS line. for every aspiring bloodbringers there are 10 blood reavers or warriors.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Probably, but you'll have to take Fabius - who will suddenly cost 300pts - to access them. 

 

Because.

 

EDIT - The point is that moving the CSM range to a more overtly chaotic look would not impact your ability to make a 'clean' IW or AL force one bit. The tendency towards monopose is a concern, IMO, though so I'm with you on that.  

Edited December 6, 2017 by Res Ipsa Loquitur

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

They could always just include "clean" and "mutated" options on the sprue of any new CSM box (i.e., normal horned helmet vs. horned helmet where the vox grille is now a lamprey maw...normal Chaos-y breastplate vs. breastplate with tentacles or more mouths or w/e)

[Azekai]

They could always just include "clean" and "mutated" options on the sprue of any new CSM box (i.e., normal horned helmet vs. horned helmet where the vox grille is now a lamprey maw...normal Chaos-y breastplate vs. breastplate with tentacles or more mouths or w/e)

Hey, I am all for more options, but I can't see them handing out so many redundant bits, unless they are bundling the standard chaos marines together with possessed (like the new kits where you can make either a unit of warp talons or raptors). Still, seems pretty unlikely.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

 

They could always just include "clean" and "mutated" options on the sprue of any new CSM box (i.e., normal horned helmet vs. horned helmet where the vox grille is now a lamprey maw...normal Chaos-y breastplate vs. breastplate with tentacles or more mouths or w/e)

Hey, I am all for more options, but I can't see them handing out so many redundant bits, unless they are bundling the standard chaos marines together with possessed (like the new kits where you can make either a unit of warp talons or raptors). Still, seems pretty unlikely.

 

Perhaps if we pester them enough on Facebook....

[MaliGn]

I'm with Malisteen, I have always been down on the chaos hating chaos marines thing. It didn't exist in the first chaos codex, when my introduction to the traitor legions stems from and it shouldn't exist now. That said, it was also very clear that each of the nine were very visually distinct, far more than any loyalist chapter could ever be. I'm glad that we now have two fully realised examples of this with the death guard and thousand sons but yes Iron Warriors should be visually distinct from word bearers in more than colour scheme. I don't know if it would be possible to create a system where upgrade sprues for a core would do enough to create the variety we need across an army to work. Each sprue would nearly need a unit's worth of parts to work, a sprue of chaotic bionics for iron warriors? lizard scale textured ceramite and concealing cloaks for alpha legion?

robes, books, braziers and more for word bearers? it gets preposterous. Especially if you want all these parts to be compatible with a single core unit.

That said, I can't see all the legions getting a full release either, but with the sheer quantity of compatible space marina e parts of all kinds available I'd rather err toward the over the top with the chaos sprues, in the knowledge that less ornate parts from myriad other sources can be mixed in to tone them down easier than non existent elaborate parts can be grafted on to dial up the chaos.

[Lexington]

Let the chaos marines be chaos marines.

Man, I so want to agree with a lot of this post, and then want to disagree just as hard with other parts, and the irritating thing is that a lot of those are the same parts. Life is weird sometimes.

 

There's a squajillion different interpretation of Chaos, and they're all equally right, and all equally wrong. Tell me Chaos is all tentacled gut-mouths and , and I'll point the faction-defining awesomeness of the 2nd Edition Chaos Codex, the sinister, weighty quotations of Kargos Bloodspitter and Huron Blackheart, or the majority of the Chaos miniatures line for the past twenty-plus years. This is the vision of Chaos I personally subscribe to in a creative sense, and the one that tends to strike me on an emotional and intellectual level. The human soul rotting away into a hive of obsession, denial and hatred, weaponized flesh in the service of man's own worst instincts, clad in hulking, imposing armor. The concept of the Traitor Legions as the savage, pre-Christian barbarians, reaching from the distant past to burn the Roman Empire down is one that captures the imagination, and has all sorts of important connotations to it that live at the heart of the Chaos Space Marines. It's a very, very valid view.

 

That said, yeah, it is completely annoying and nonsensical that a good half of the Traitor Legions supposedly scorn the use of their faction's defining concept. It's as much a function of players' tendency to grasp the most prominent and self-congratulatory concepts of any faction as anything else, but it completely denies the well-documented degradation of the Legions into warbands that have absolutely turned to the Chaos Gods in order to survive and prosper. There's a whole horde of Daemons out there, and endless fiction involving Daemonic technologies, etc., etc. It's a huge part of Chaos, and flat-out ignoring it does just as much disservice to the Legions as making it the focus of the faction. Chaos is Chaotic. Says so right on the tin.

 

There's no right or wrong way here, and neither of these approaches produces better material as a rule. For every indulgent Zso Sahaal-type anti-hero, there's a Talos, unflinchingly presented as both victim and monster. The warped and wild side of Chaos can easily produce one-note cheeseball villains for equally 2-D Space Marines to slaughter their way through, but then, just...friggin' look at this. That's Chaos, man, in the same way that water is wet. It's a perfect execution of the concept.

 

So, I dunno. TL;DR, it's complicated, man, and we're all left to choose a point along the continuum to more or less be ours. There's no one answer, and I think that trying to hard to find one just defines Chaos down to something simple and singular, and that's the only universally bad interpretation I can think of.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Lexington

[Warpmiss]

Look, again, the 30k and loyalist 40k lines are still available for people who want to pretend that 10 millennia of exposure to chaos wouldn't have any visible affect on the traitor legions.  For those who want to believe that iron warriors could go through all that time replacing every spontaneous mutation with cybernetics and still have anything left at the end.  And not only the loyalist models, but the loyalist rules as well are available for any alpha legion player who still goes in for the the memehammer secret loyalist garbage.

 

Let the chaos marines be chaos marines.  If you want non-chaos marines, its only like 50% of all rules and models published by GW/FW already.

 

IMO, chaos should drop the chaos-hating parts of Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords fluff.  For one, it was always contradicted by half of the rest of their fluff: Alpha Legion doesn't have mutations, and yet they make a special point of hiding their mutations under capes and such only to dramatically reveal them as a terror tactic in battle.  Iron Warriors hate daemons and sorcery and mutation, but are all about daemonic sorcerous technology and war machines, and their most iconic unit, Obliterators, are among the /most/ heavily mutated units in the entire line.  Every single individual night lord is a grumpy, chaos hating, stick in the mud hold out shaking his head at the willing embrace of daemonic corruption displayed by literally every other member of their legion.  Seriously, the night lords problem of each individual somehow being the emo exception to their debauched and evil kin long ago reached the kind of self-parody tier previously reserved for Drizzt Do'Urden clones.

 

No.  No no no.  NO.  No more.  It has to stop.  We have to be done with this.  If I were in charge of things, anti chaos chaos marines would be done, dead and over, clean break.  No more.  Maybe there were some hold outs when they first went into the eye, but in the 10,000 years since those hold outs either died or saw the light.  I wouldn't care if it caused a rift with the CSM community as bad as Age of Sigmar caused with fantasy players.  The only 'maybe secret loyalists, non chaos chaos marines' would be Fallen Angels, and they'd get their own separate codex and figure line (conversion kit really, to build their stuff from the loyalist dark angel kits).  All other chaos marines in 40k would be CHAOS marines, horns, spikes, toothy maws, jagged trim, chaos marks, clawed tentacles, daemonic wargear, the works.

 

And yeah, maybe some old chaos players would quit.  Oh well.  I'm tired of this or that legion not being chaos enough getting used as an excuse for why the entire model line should be held back.

I personally like the ability to have mutated and non-mutated CSMs and even more to also have the choice of saying these guys worship Chaos and these guys don't and just see it as a tool or whatever. Saying that every CSM faction/character HAS to be mutated and worship Chaos 24/7 seems unnecessary and even boring IMO. The more nuanced they can be the more interesting they are and let's people come up with nicer fluff for their boys.

 

I love my MKIII IWs which I gave bionic legs precisely thinking they would cut off their legs if mutations started. But I also love the Chosen models with all their spikey goodness and would also love some new obliterator models. Where have you heard/read that GW is pushing back CSM releases because of this??

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Positing that Chaos Space Marines rejecting Chaos is silly is a long, long, long way away from saying "every CSM faction/character HAS to be mutated and worship Chaos 24/7".

[Lord_Caerolion]

But here's the thing though, these are Marines from the Eye of Terror, or the Maelstrom, etc. Regardless of whether you believe in Chaos, or want to use it, it changes you. We know this from basically everything we've been told about Chaos. You can't live in literal Hell without being changed by it. Sure, not everyone is going to be running around screaming "Praise Chaos" at the top of their lungs, but they're not going to be unchanged.

[Lexington]

I mean, that's not untrue. Not completely, anyway. To read a lot of the descriptive fiction, it seems impossible, right?

 

At the same time, tho, I've got at least a shelf's worth of Chaos-related books that feature a truly staggering number of Eye-dwelling Marines who don't seem to have much in the way of physical mutation. So, somehow, you've gotta mentally circle that square.

 

It helps, I think, to remember that Chaos is as metaphorical as it is physical. Maybe more so. 40K is fiction, and the point of fiction isn't to construct a realistic place of hard, fast physics and facts - world-building is just the window dressing. For me, anyway, Chaos is all about corruption, and the form it takes is as much a function of who it's affecting as it is anything else. It turned Khârn into a howling, bloodthirsty and unthinking beast. It took Arhiman down a path of obsession and damnation that's as real as any mutation. Even Abbadon, much as he might refuse Daemonhood, has become entirely consumed by a need for vengeance and slaughter which he probably can't see an end to. Chaos is the bad stuff inside.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Lexington

[Lord_Caerolion]

Very true, Lexington. I hadn't meant to imply that "changed" necessarily meant "physically mutated".

 

Personally, I think the best solution would be to release a "Renegade Astartes" kit which is similar to the existing Chaos Marine kit, so somewhat Warp-touched, but no major, obvious mutations, and also a "Chaos Astartes" kit, along the lines of the Chosen from Dark Vengeance, for your really corrupted individuals. Just make them the same way all other non-Primaris kits are made, so that people can mix in Loyalist parts to their Renegades for the really fresh converts, or mix Renegade and Chaos parts for guys like the more favoured of the Red Corsairs, etc.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Lord_Caerolion

[Warpmiss]

EDIT: Format wasn't working for some reason in mobile and I had to write a new post. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Warpmiss

[Warpmiss]

Positing that Chaos Space Marines rejecting Chaos is silly is a long, long, long way away from saying "every CSM faction/character HAS to be mutated and worship Chaos 24/7".

 

Sorry but:

 

 

 

No.  No no no.  NO.  No more.  It has to stop.  We have to be done with this.  If I were in charge of things, anti chaos chaos marines would be done, dead and over, clean break.  No more.  

 

his goes beyond saying it's 'silly' they are literally saying they don't like it and that such characters shouldn't exist.

 

As Lexington is saying, Chaos can change you in many ways mentally and physically whether they like it or not. A marine can still oppose Chaos but be corrupted by it. The examples he has given perfectly show this. 

 

Also, doesn't time flow differently in the Warp? Some Marines wouldn't have gone through 10k years in that case. 

[Closet Skeleton]

Ideally we'd get a new chaos space marine kit on par with the Plague Marines, a Noise Marine and Berzerker kit and then upgrade sprues for the other legions.

 

Renegades can have an upgrade sprue for the loyalist kits.

 

So fluff wise I think it will happen. Sadly it is only a matter of time. Bile will get all the fleshy bits he needs to make another brand of new and improved enhanced marines. We also know he can do it if he can clone more complicated specimen. Somehow they will be able to take salvaged MKX armor and scavenge them or reverse engineer them to equip them. Hopefully it will not be for a good while.

 

Fluff has nothing to do with why Primaris marines are released.

 

GW is a miniatures driven company. The design team chooses what to make, then the game design team has to make the rules and only lastly do the fluff writers have to make it all fit. Much 'awful recent fluff' may very well be the best job that could have been done under those circumstances. No one cared about the ultima founding when the project that led to the Primaris releases was started, the design team wanted to go in a new direction with space marines so they did. It has nothing to do with 'profitability' either because GW don't do market research so how would they know anything other than in a vague 'you got to keep releasing stuff so people will buy the new thing' sense.

 

Primaris marines and the new Deathguard were designed by different designers but at the same time as part of the same project. If Primaris chaos were coming or planned then the heroic scale DG models would never have been designed or released.

 

When a fluff writer puts down details about Fabius Bile then that's the fluff writer trying to pretend a toy line is a cohesive universe, its got nothing to do with the product release schedule or where the design team want to go next.

 

 

 I'm tired of this or that legion not being chaos enough getting used as an excuse for why the entire model line should be held back.

Is this an actual statement from GW?
 

I love my MKIII IWs which I gave bionic legs precisely thinking they would cut off their legs if mutations started. But I also love the Chosen models with all their spikey goodness and would also love some new obliterator models. Where have you heard/read that GW is pushing back CSM releases because of this??

 

 

No one has heard that or claimed to have heard that. People were just speculating 'if GW worked that way then-'.

 

The reason why there's no new chaos space marine range is that the miniatures design team suffered heavy burnout from the Dark Eldar revamp and that basically put an end to the possibility of any similar all in one go revamps. We got a new loyalist space marine range (minus Codex terminators and vehicles) but that was because they had to transfer the marine range over to CAD anyway so making new tactical marines made the other work easier.

 

Then we got plastic Mark III and IV because they decided Forge World could branch out into plastics.

 

 

They could always just include "clean" and "mutated" options on the sprue of any new CSM box (i.e., normal horned helmet vs. horned helmet where the vox grille is now a lamprey maw...normal Chaos-y breastplate vs. breastplate with tentacles or more mouths or w/e)

Hey, I am all for more options, but I can't see them handing out so many redundant bits, unless they are bundling the standard chaos marines together with possessed (like the new kits where you can make either a unit of warp talons or raptors). Still, seems pretty unlikely.

 

 

Any non-Rubric chaos kit should be a combination of mutated parts and non-mutated parts. That's what the Deathguard and Thousand Sons Sorcerer kits are like. You can't make a whole non-mutated unit without heavily converting but individual unmutated plague marines are quite easy to build straight from the box.

 

The older kits however just don't give you the option of mutations because they were originally packaged with a mediocre mutation sprue designed to fit the crappy 6th edition fantasy chaos warriors. The rest of the kit was repackaged with a new command sprue with banners, special weapons and champion heads to replace a similar special weapon sprue on the original release (with an almost identical heavy bolter but a different plasma gun) but no replacement for the dual purpose 40k/fantasy mutation sprue was made.

 

 

Perhaps if we pester them enough on Facebook....

 

The rules team respond to facebook, the miniatures side have never promised that.

[Commissar K.]

I don't think Primaris Chaos Space Marines are to come in 2018, I wouldn't count out that they will appear but I simply still think it will not be any time soon.
This isnt because of narrative reasons, (if GW would create everything based on narrative the whole game would be completely different) but simply visual design.
I believe that GW wants to create an even bigger audience of potential Space Marine fans before looking to much into Chaos Space Marines. This audience is generated by presenting more high tech designers for Space Marines and really make them appeal more for fans of Starcraft and other techno-soldier fans. The bigger they are the more interesting they visually are in real life as a hero.

Because many Chaos Space Marines are often much more converted, equiped with spikey bits and horned helmets their general design always looked more fantasty-styled and frankly larger as regular Space Marines because they often were. Based on this I think it will actually be quite some time before GW will promote Chaos as much in 40K as they do for Age of Sigmar for example.

One of the prime influences for Primaris Space Marines in my opinion also was the Stormcast Eternals. Heroes with larger models as Chaos that finally looked able to deal with pretty much any thread. However because 40K has a much larger fanbase as WFB ever did I think GW played it smart by slowely putting more and more Primaris Marines in there instead of canceling huge parts of their lines and replacing them with Primaris.

Ultimately I too am very interested in how Games Workshop will flesh out their Primaris plan for Space Marines and how far they will go. Will all new releases be Primaris for them? Are we going to see more regular Space Marines? I really don't know but hope they will be treated like Chaos Space Marines their Possessed essentially. Making a clear upgraded variant but not removing the basics. We'll see...

 

[Sception]

I'm not saying anti-chaos chaos marine fluff doesn't exist.  I'm not saying that 'chaos marines can exist in the eye without being outwardly or inwardly changed in any appreciable way' is contradictory to (some) existing fluff.  I'm saying that fluff is bad, I don't like it, and if I were in charge I would retcon it away and just accept any fallout from people who did like it.  Again, maybe that's how things were in the early days after the scouring, but if I had my way, in all the time since the hold outs either died, or got with the system, because you can't survive and thrive while simultaneously living your life at constant war with the very air you breathe.  I'm not saying all the chaos marines would 'worship' the dark gods, I'm saying there wouldn't be any that turned their nose up at them and refused the power they offered, because any that did would have been destroyed in the legion wars, or driven out of the eye to be destroyed by the Imperium.  Again, I'm not saying that's what (all) of the fluff currently implies, it's just what it would imply, had I my way, because that version of chaos would allow for a much more visually and thematically and narratively coherent faction going forward.

 

And no, I don't at all think future chaos kits should be a mix of ornate, gothic, mutated bits and plain ones.  That's a recipe for an utterly incoherent model range with no driving aesthetic what so ever.  No, lets have a strong, visually chaotic aesthetic, yes based on the dark vengeance models, albeit toned down for regular dudes so there's a distinction between the grunts & the elites.  And those who don't like it can buy 30k models, because those are in affordable plastic now and better represent the old/archaic but decidedly not chaotic aesthetic that the anti-chaos chaos folk like better than anything GW proper is going to do in a 40k line anyway.

 

 

Lack of poseability in more ornate kits might be a problem, sure, but I see that as a general problem with GW kits these days regardless of aesthetic.

[Sception]

I don't think Primaris Chaos Space Marines are to come in 2018

 

 

I agree, I don't think we'll see them in 2018.  I do think we'll see separate ranges / codeces for one or both of World Eaters and Emperor's Children, though, and then I expect a chaos counterpart to Primaris, plus new models for Huron, Bile, and Archaon, possibly in a triumvirate box with a narrative focus on the campaign towards terra, will arrive with a new basic CSM codex the following year.

 

Mind You, this isn't based on anything beyond wild speculation.  Similarly based on nothing, I don't think we'll ever see new models for basic chaos marines, bikes, or havocs.