Will CSM get the "Primaris" treatment?

[Scribe]

Really, I'm not worried about if/when, we get Primaris.

 

I don't think it will happen, as we will just get Chaos touched marines.

 

It's been canonical since the dawn of time, that the warp empowered the legions that went there.

 

How many times have we read '...the Champion of Chaos, bloated with power...'

 

So really just give us, after all these years, a really good plastic multi part Chaos kit.

 

It doesn't need to be Primaris, something like the DV and Raptor kits, but more flexible in its bits is all I want for main line CSM.

 

Same with my ancient, and unloved, Berzerkers at this point.

 

I'm already saving up, because once we get a 40K Angron and World Eaters book on pat with 1KS and DG?

 

Just hook my bank up to GW and start the transfer....

[Flipl8]

Just to add a visual to this debate, here's what I hope GW will eventually come up with. https://i.redd.it/ddnptr7yui501.jpg

 

To me, Primaris = Truescale. I couldn't care much less about the fluff, honestly.

 

The conversion linked is mine. Hope it inspires some of you. Next I'm doing some Khorne berzerkers.

Edited December 23, 2017 by maelstrom48

[Scribe]

I personally find the Primaris comically out of scale way too big.

 

https://i.redd.it/j0c0xlq8e5zy.jpg

 

If that is accurate, its just silly.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I personally find the Primaris comically out of scale way too big.

 

https://i.redd.it/j0c0xlq8e5zy.jpg

 

If that is accurate, its just silly.

I absolutely agree with you when it comes to Primaris being comically large. 

 

That's partly my motivations for starting this thread... Unfortunately I feel like GW has created a very awkward conundrum with the scale. I don't know if we're going to run into the awkward scenario where the arch nemesis of the Imperium is dwarfed in size by these new foes.. I also am curious to see if GW is going to develop a "fluff" based reason for larger CSM and if they end up following suit and making larger models as the lines update. I do still believe that Primaris and that scale wont replace regular astartes, we'll definitely be finding out from here.

 

I don't know if anyone really paid all that much attention to it but DV Chosen and the new Khârn model are definitely a larger scale than the regular CSM kits. Comparable to Primaris, Death Guard, and Rubrics but I'm not certain they are exactly the same scale is their counter parts. 

 

I am very curious to see how GW updates the Chaos line of Marines as well as Berzerkers and Noise Marines.. It's really making me hesitate on finishing my 40k World Eaters because I really don't want to put a huge amount of effort converting up Berzerkers that aren't going to match up very well to whatever kit GW graces us with. Here's to hoping they get released next year like it's been rumored!

[Scribe]

The Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, and Plague Marines, from what I've been told, are in the same scale.

 

So I'm not too worried. They have intentionally made a 'primaris scale' so as to invalidate the Space Marine core line, and eventually replace it.

 

Based on the size of DW/1KS/PM (especially the last 2) I think we are safe.

 

I hope we are safe, because I'm not buying into Primaris scale, its stupid big.

[Panzer]

To each their own. I like the Primaris scale and can't look at regular (non-DW/TS/DG) Marines anymore due their awkward proportions. ^^

Will new CSM become as huge as Primaris? Unlikely. Maybe some special unit like Possessed but not the regular Chaos Marine. Not even Death Guard who are known for being bloated even among other Chaos Marines are quite as large as Primaris Marines.

GW is definitely not just true scaling their line. Primaris being larger than others IS fluff and also is represented with their models.

 

However I do hope that once we get new chaos models that they have better proportions than the current vanilla marine models. They don't have to make them primaris size to adjust the proportions.

Edited December 23, 2017 by sfPanzer

[FrozenHoss]

We know that Fabius Bile looked upon the Primarius Marines and coveted them.  We also know from the community sight that Chaos will get new units made from the essence of the dark gods, that will be Chaos's Reinforcements.  So I think we will be getting something that will fill each slot of the force org chart.  I just hope they don't do the stupidity of "Oh yeah, and old CSM can upgrade themselves into these" like they did with the primarius.  They were cooler when they were the vat born new guys, who were seeing the world and the ravages of war for the first time.

[Panzer]

 I just hope they don't do the stupidity of "Oh yeah, and old CSM can upgrade themselves into these" like they did with the primarius.  They were cooler when they were the vat born new guys, who were seeing the world and the ravages of war for the first time.

They didn't do that tho. Apart from a single comment on the livestream very early on there's no mentioning about Space Marines being able to get turned into Primaris Marines at all. In fact since two of the three new organs get implanted very early on it implies that normal Marines can't get upgraded to Primaris.

 

Also Primaris were never meant to stay the vat born new guys. That's only the first batch Cawl experimented with. Everything after that are new recruits raised by the Chapters like usually. 

[Cryptix]

There's no reason to have a fluff reason for the scale upgrade, so we're fine.

 

Also I'm confused Scribe, you hate Primaris scale but like DG/TS scale?

They're the exact same size tho.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Swarmlord Unleashed

[Scribe]

Primaris are not the same size as TS and DG they are larger. I'll find a pic

 

It appears I may need to retract my statement. They are pretty dang close.

 

https://warofsigmar.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/blogging/picture1/2176/size.jpg

Edited December 23, 2017 by Scribe

[Corswain]

Good grief, I hope CSM never get Primaris’d. I have no problem with the Death Guard and Thousand Sons scale creep but I really dislike the Primaris lore, scale and aesthetic.

[Commissar K.]

Good grief, I hope CSM never get Primaris’d. I have no problem with the Death Guard and Thousand Sons scale creep but I really dislike the Primaris lore, scale and aesthetic.

Yeah I think that in reality there is nothing wrong with the visual idea of Primaris but I believe both Chaos fans and Imperium fans would have been more open to it being a variation on armour, not something completely new, not something boiled up by non-Space Marines essentially. In addition not something that closely tied to Guilliman.

 

In the end though I think that we will get used to them in a matter of years and that in the end most SM lines will contain some form of Primaris in one shape or another. What I don't think is that it actually hurts Loyalists, I just think that because of many Possessed reasons Chaos has no real functionality for it. Even if we just look at stats our Possessed practically are Primaris Space Marines.

 

As before though, I do think the concept could work out in conjunction with Bile and all that and I would like to see it thake some form eventually. Some might ask why but to me the simple reality is that otherwise the Chaos undivided Space Marines might just be a little too boring to flesh out. I personally like the concept of several of the Primaris thaking a particular role as other non Chaos God specific Legion units. In reality I wanted some to be like that allready. (E.g. have Possessed be tied to Word Bearers, have Obliterators tied to Iron Warriors etc.).

 

Narratively speaking the most acceptable input I'd like is that Fabius Bile switches his allegiance to the Forge of Souls to perhaps create indeed Soulforged Chaos Space Marines. To me the process of creating these Marines would also be different and a status only attainable for those to vow their allegiance to the Forge of Souls. To me it's the conceptual idea that makes the most sence of such an faction within the current Chaos Space Marines.

 

 

 

[Corswain]

It depends on what the intent of Primaris is.

 

If it’s to re-scale to a more “realistic” Space Marine stature, then Plague Marines and Rubrics are already there and I think any future releases will be along the same lines too.

 

If it’s to create more powerful Marines, then Chaos already has possessed.

 

If it’s to broaden the range of models, then Chaos have been pretty solid on that front for the last year and I wouldn’t expect it to slow down much in the next few years. We’ll almost certainly get plastic WE and EC at some point.

 

No matter which way you twist it, I don’t see a need for Primaris to be included in Chaos armies. The only positive I have about Primaris is that they have created a larger distinction between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, no bad thing in my opinion.

 

Bile is an interesting plotline. The Primaris have kinda made him the biggest failure of the setting - he’s had a long time to work on it and someone else beat him to it millenia ago.

If Chaos get Primaris, then I definitely think it will be through Bile (I like the Forge of Souls idea). I’d just prefer that Chaos don’t get MKX. I don’t mind the basic suit but all the oher permutations are so goofy.

[FrozenHoss]

It depends on what the intent of Primaris is.

 

If it’s to re-scale to a more “realistic” Space Marine stature, then Plague Marines and Rubrics are already there and I think any future releases will be along the same lines too.

 

If it’s to create more powerful Marines, then Chaos already has possessed.

 

If it’s to broaden the range of models, then Chaos have been pretty solid on that front for the last year and I wouldn’t expect it to slow down much in the next few years. We’ll almost certainly get plastic WE and EC at some point.

 

No matter which way you twist it, I don’t see a need for Primaris to be included in Chaos armies. The only positive I have about Primaris is that they have created a larger distinction between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, no bad thing in my opinion.

 

Bile is an interesting plotline. The Primaris have kinda made him the biggest failure of the setting - he’s had a long time to work on it and someone else beat him to it millenia ago.

If Chaos get Primaris, then I definitely think it will be through Bile (I like the Forge of Souls idea). I’d just prefer that Chaos don’t get MKX. I don’t mind the basic suit but all the oher permutations are so goofy.

I hope that we get something that is more than traitor P.Marines.  Something that is uniquely chaos.  I don't mind them giving us something that gives us a new play style, or a new twist on our existing ones.

[Corswain]

I actually don’t think Chaos needs anything new, just new models. If you include Daemons (and I do) then Chaos is probably the most diverse army in the game.

At the moment, it suffers from old sculpts and a lack of distinction, we’ve just got spikey Space Marines. The Dark Vengeance models, TS and DG are leaps and bounds in the right direction for Chaos aesthetically, we just need GW to follow through with the entire range.

 

That is all Chaos needs, in my opinion. If Chosen, Possesesed, Obliterators and Mutilators got updated kits, then there is no need for a Primaris equivilant. We’ve already got them, they just look pretty dated.

[Commissar K.]

I can only agree with that. Then there is an additional wish where I've been waiting for well over 10 years now and that's the actual appearance of a Dreadclaw for Chaos Space Marines. Not so much because we need it, World Eaters need it or otherwise 'need' but for visual reference and actually making more sence out of the idea that Chaos Space Marines too can strike out of seemfully nowhere.

Don't get me wrong, I do love the Daemonic Engine concepts and all but next to the Rhino, Landraider and Predator chasis vehicles we have I do think an additional Transport like a Dreadclaw would give us another depth that isn't a replica of something else.

So back to Primaris Marines, at this moment without weapons in mind they would be "just Possessed" for us which is funny but really not that much required. The reason I actually think they fit the Imperium much and much better is to represent the power that can come out of hope and technology as opposed to the power gained from the dark gods of Chaos. 

[Sception]

In terms of things we 'need', the only thing I still feel like we 'need' is some more & better delivery options.  the situation isn't as dire as it was under 6th and 7th editions, but it's still painful.  What that looks like could be anything.  an assault-oriented rhino varient to serve as a chaos counterpart to loyalists 'shooty rhino' razorback.  Some matched play legal variant chaos land raiders that cut back on the firepower a bit to emphasize their role as transports.  A GW dreadclaw or chaos drop pod, one that doesn't have to be as skittish about maybe almost being good as the FW version.  Warp Gates dropped from orbit.  Infiltrate stratagem for everyone, with alpha legion maybe just getting a discount on theirs.  I don't know.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

In terms of things we 'need', the only thing I still feel like we 'need' is some more & better delivery options.  the situation isn't as dire as it was under 6th and 7th editions, but it's still painful.  What that looks like could be anything.  an assault-oriented rhino varient to serve as a chaos counterpart to loyalists 'shooty rhino' razorback.  Some matched play legal variant chaos land raiders that cut back on the firepower a bit to emphasize their role as transports.  A GW dreadclaw or chaos drop pod, one that doesn't have to be as skittish about maybe almost being good as the FW version.  Warp Gates dropped from orbit.  Infiltrate stratagem for everyone, with alpha legion maybe just getting a discount on theirs.  I don't know.

100% agreed. Maybe some kind of Daemon engine transport with a special rule that allows the disembark move to happen after the vehicle moves rather than before. Defiler-style spider walker with a bottom hatch for troops to drop out of...like a Chaos AT-AT...

[Warsmith Aznable]

Defiler-style spider walker with a bottom hatch for troops to drop out of...like a Chaos AT-AT...

Or just bring back the old Apocalypse idea of handrails on Defilers but for regular 40k games and not just fir Berserkers. Problem solved in a very Chaos way.

[Sception]

While I've spoken much in favor of 'chaos primaris' marines, both in the sense of 'i want it to hapen' and in the sense of 'I think it's inevitable and you should get used to it now', I want to be clear that I don't necessarily mean literally chaos primaris, in the sense of the same fluff and armor style.  I don't necessarily mean I think half the primaris marines will turn traitor, or that Fabius Bile will reverse engineer the exact technology and create literally chaos primaris marines to go in a bunch of stolen armor.  What I mean by 'chaos primaris' is:

 

* new chaos models in the scale and proportion of primaris marines, fitting the game's ongoing scale creep and the desire to make marines noticeably & distinctly larger than regular humans.

 

* these new chaos models will have some fluff reason to distinguish them from "regular" chaos marines.  In the background fluff they'll be a different kind of chaos marine allowing the new kits to be rolled out a few at a time without effectively invalidating a whole swath of old models.  Unlike primaris marines they might not be a *new* kind of chaos marine.  As others have already mentioned, both possessed and chosen could already fit the needed place as 'super marines', though personally I find chosen a more likely candidate for this than possessed, as possessed already have a plastic kit, and GW seems deathly allergic to the idea of replacing existing plastic kits.

 

That said, they still might be a new addition to the fluff.  I personally think that's more likely, there's been some ground work laid for the 'Fabius Bile reverse engineers actual literal primaris marines' take on this, and if I were going to bet I'd say that was the route they'd take.  But whether they're a new thing or 'chosen are just bigger now that chaos's power waxes strong over the galaxy,' either way the effect is the same.  I think we'll see future CSM kits in a new, bigger scale, replacing old models with new units entirely rather than updating the old models themselves.

 

So maybe they're "chosen reavers/chosen terminators/chosen furies" or maybe they're "anti-primaris intercessors/anti-primaris aggressors/anti-primaris inceptors," but in the long run I don't see a huge difference between those things in the long run.  And either way, I expect the models themselves to be significantly visually chaotic - with mutations, daemonic faces, jagged trim, hornes & claws, etc, in the style of basically all the other CSM releases that we've seen since 6th ed.

 

They won't outright replace or drop the old kits, which will continue to exist unchanged, but I don't think there will be any new releases of old style chaos marine units.  There won't be new basic chaos marines, bikes, havoks, or terminators.  Instead there'll be entirely new units in this larger scale roughly taking the roles of the old models, and the old stuff will get less attention as the years go by, take up less place on shelves, eventually moving to direct only and quietly discontinued in 3 or 4 years time.

 

That's my prediction.  That prediction isn't based on anything but guesswork, but that's what I'm guessing.  While I'm guessing, I still expect to see both World Eaters and Emperor's Children releases this year, with this 'chaos primaris' stuff appearing in 2019, along with a narrative focus on the new siege of Terra, and a new chaos triumvirate for Abaddon, Fabius, and Huron.

 

If any of that happens, and the kits turn out as nice as the thousand sons and death guard waves did, I'll be generally ok with it.  And if none of that happens and I'm way off base, I guess people can tell me they told me so.

Edited January 5, 2018 by malisteen

[Panzer]

* new chaos models in the scale and proportion of primaris marines, fitting the game's ongoing scale creep and the desire to make marines noticeably & distinctly larger than regular humans.

 

Yes I do think that will happen eventually. I also don't think it's scale creep more like scale correction. Chaos Marines were always supposed to be slightly larger than Marines and we all know that the Marine models don't really represent how large they are compared to human sized models.

I don't think they'll be bigger than Plague Marines tho and those are still slightly shorter than Primaris Marines. Probably just the size of TSons/DW models and hopefully with proper proportions.

 

 

* these new chaos models will have some fluff reason to distinguish them from "regular" chaos marines.  In the background fluff they'll be a different kind of chaos marine allowing the new kits to be rolled out a few at a time without effectively invalidating a whole swath of old models.  Unlike primaris marines they might not be a *new* kind of chaos marine.  As others have already mentioned, both possessed and chosen could already fit the needed place as 'super marines', though personally I find chosen a more likely candidate for this than possessed, as possessed already have a plastic kit, and GW seems deathly allergic to the idea of replacing existing plastic kits.

I don't think that's necessary and I don't think one thing is more likely than the other. GW could just give Chaos an updated model range for the basic units without giving any in-universe explanation and it would be fine. That being said I don't think it's unlikley they'll spin some narrative that Chaos Marines got empowered by the warp even more to justify the more DV style models if they go that route.

It's not that GW is deathly allergic to replace existing plastic ranges...it's the designer who voiced their problem with having to design the same unit over and over again just slightly differently each time. They are sick of it (understandably tbh) and want to work on something new where they can be more creative.

Hence why I don't think Eldar will ever get an updated model range unless it's for Ynnari (or some other kind of new spin on them) and CSM is kinda in the same boat there tho DV style Marines offer some good option out of that problem imo.

 

[Sception]

It's not that GW is deathly allergic to replace existing plastic ranges...

It really is, tho. The suits have always been strongly against replacing existing plastic kits, at least when they still sell at all, and the existing CSM plastics do still sell. The cost of doing so is very high, and you'll always have a subset of the player base who feel their existing models are fine and they won't bother replacing them.

 

It's possible that we'll see a dark eldar style revision to our existing line, but CSMs are in nowhere near the same dire sales situation to justify throwing out what they already have. So I view it as considerably more likely that we'll get a primaris style new line stapled on top, implicitly replacing the existing line, rather than new models for existing units that would explicitly replace existing kits.

Edited January 7, 2018 by malisteen

[Panzer]

 

It's not that GW is deathly allergic to replace existing plastic ranges...

It really is, tho. The suits have always been strongly against replacing existing plastic kits, at least when they still sell at all, and the existing CSM plastics do still sell. The cost of doing so is very high, and you'll always have a subset of the player base who feel their existing models are fine and they won't bother replacing them.

Those are rather normal things to consider when running a business to be fair. Nothing I'd call "deathly allergic".

[Sception]

Whatever you want to call it, the mind set is there, and so I personally expect to see new units, not new models for existing units.

[Panzer]

Whatever you want to call it, the mind set is there, and so I personally expect to see new units, not new models for existing units.

Regardless the reason for it, we can at least agree on that. :P