The New Codex and Raven Guard

[SkimaskMohawk]

Thought I'd start this up since you can download the codex currently in NA and we can talk about the new book and any changes to units and/or playstyles compared to the Index.

 

First thing I looked for was any changes to Shrike so he fits the bill as a Chapter Master (namely an extra wound but a 2+ would be nice too). Unfortunately not, no changes in stats, abilities or points. Kind of disappointed as I would have taken a points increase for him to have 6 wounds; I can handwave artificer armour as being too flashy or incompatible for jump packing.

 

Next is the Intercessors; aux grenade launcher is an ability that 1 per 5 can take that increases grenade range to 30". They don't cost points, so there's no reason ever not to take them, especially since the range pairs well with our Trait. Auto bolts are 1 and Stalkers are 2 for those interested.

 

We have this for Raptors "If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter" and then the following for stratagems "If your Chapter does not have any associated Stratagems, you can use the Stratagems of its founding Chapter." Furthermore, the Warlord trait sections is missing anything about using founding chapter stratagems, so Issodon can take Storm of Fire. Meaning Raptors are currently just...better Ravens

 

Guilliman is absolutely un-nerfed.

 

Repulsor looks pretty cool, you can do a couple of builds, from torrent of fire to limited AA, but there's a ton of guns to remember and to convert into points so I'm not too sure on the final outcome.

 

Anything else interesting?

[Nusquam]

The Storm of Fire thing is definitely amazing. I wouldn't say they're better RG, probably just different. Shrike getting an easy T1 charge with no overwatch to get your VV in scott-free is also very potent. Issodon with Storm of Fire(Which might end up being his WLT anyway to mimic legendary marksmen and keeping the same CT/Strat now that I think about it) is great across the duration of the game. I'd say both are very strong. Issodon may win out with infiltrated Aggressors via SftS because they will definitely roll more than a few 6's if they stand still in that ~13" sweet spot and unleash dakka. I'm excited to use that trait with my bolter Inceptors.

 

Stalker Intercessors are my new favorite troop. The Stalker is my all-time favorite bolt weapon. They can put some hurt at a good range on infantry and enjoy a 2+ in cover with a -1 to hit them.

 

Dakka repulsor is just shy of 300 points but has an absurd amount of shots. We're talking ~32 various quality bolt and bolt+ shots with PotMS at 34"(including move) or ~26+3d6 shots within 28". It's going to put a lot of hurt on things.

 

Regular LTs is a great addition and my automatic second HQ for my Raptors. Free relics is amazing; I'm giving mine the Primarchs Wrath(Malice Jr.) and he's going to tool around with Issodon and Inceptors laying hate.

 

Reivers I can see being a valuable toolbox. They are better auto-bolter Intercessors. Depending on your local terrain I'm not convinced about the hooks value; If there are a lot of multi level ruins then sure. But the movement rules have been simplified and you basically move from A to B if you can. That's it. Even optional rules for ruins infantry can just pass-through. The grav-chutes aren't bad but SftS is a lot better. The Silent Stalker WLT makes their shock grenades a bit redundant if you don't charge other units. I think for other Chapters like Carcharodons they'll be more valuable. RG as-is steps on a lot of the Reivers abilities.

 

Hellblasters are basically plasma snipers with AP-4 or SftS for double-tapping a front line. Just plain good.

 

The -1 to hit CT just makes any sort of shooting unit better. SftS eliminates the need to move as far up the board with AMs and VVs and in a pinch for going second you can always deploy them outside 12" since they jump 12" anyway. THen if you add Shrike it's still going to be about a ~5" charge with rerolls.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

*deleted*

Edited July 29, 2017 by Wulfgar76

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Reivers I can see being a valuable toolbox. They are better auto-bolter Intercessors. Depending on your local terrain I'm not convinced about the hooks value; If there are a lot of multi level ruins then sure. But the movement rules have been simplified and you basically move from A to B if you can. That's it. Even optional rules for ruins infantry can just pass-through. 

 

Terrain can be a bit wonky, but in essence the hooks will always have value. The reason for this is that you always measure vertical distance for things; going over a 1" barricade, that's 1" up and 1" down; scaling a bastion is about 7" up to the lip and then half to three-quarters of an inch downfor effectively 8". Ruins you're allowed to melt through everything and go up the levels, as opposed to non infantry, but moving vertically still costs movement. Grapnels basically turn you into Fly in the sense that you put your tape measure down and regardless of terrain you can move those 6"

 

 

 

Issodon cannot use his special ability to infiltrate primaris, centurions, or terminators, unfortunately.

 

No, but he mentioned strike from the shadows, which can :P 

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Yeah, I got the two rules mixed up. My bad.

[Nusquam]

Right, I mentioned Strike from the Shadows, not Master of Ambush(Which as a side note, I think the rules for Master of Ambush and Infiltrate, Isolate, and Destroy should be reversed considering their effects).

 

Do you really have to scale a barricade? Is there really anything you're forced to go "over" that isn't a essentially a really tall "hill/bump/bottom floor"? Like a bastion or fortress of redemption? Terrain seems to only "exist" if you want to climb on top as far as rules go.

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

It straight up says no unit can move through terrain features under the core movement rules, same sentence as other models.

 

Also in the "stepping into the new edition" is this 

 

 

Q: How do vertical distances work for movement and measurements? A: All distances are measured in three dimensions, so if a unit moves over a hill or scales a wall, the horizontal distance and vertical distance combined cannot exceed its Movement characteristic. This means that in order to traverse across an obstacle, you must move up to the top of that obstacle, move across the top of it, then move down it.

 

If your unit isn't infantry in a ruin, you have to pay movement to go up and over something to effectively go "through" it

Edited July 29, 2017 by SkimaskMohawk

[Nusquam]

AH found it, there's no wall I've ever encountered that wasn't a ruin, which lets infantry traverse through freely. We've also never really considered barricades to be walls in the sense they block anything.

[SkimaskMohawk]

"Such as walls" as just meant to be an example of terrain features that are solid imo, but it's badly expressed.

 

They faq clears it up a bit

[Jacques Corbin]

So, with Strike From The Shadows (SFTS), are Flamers back for our Assault Squads? With Jump Pack Assault (JPA), Plasma Pistols ruled because of the distance you had to be away from the enemy, and you could not move before you charge. Now, with SFTS, you deploy, then can move within 8", and flame away. So is it better to JPA the Vanguard and SFTS the Assault Squad?

[Biscuittzz]

Still think flamers are quite bad with the loss of templates, overwatch is a different story though. You're going to want to get that assault squad very close to use those flamers and are only effective really against guardsmen, boyz and gaunts i.e. things that come in blobs. So with d6 shots you won't be killing anywhere near enough to whittle that blob down to prevent them from massacring your unit.

 

I'm always repeating myself in these threads but a single Fire Raptor will solve an entire army's need for anti-infantry. Leaving everything else to go for anti-heavy/ anti-tank.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I think when doing list analysis, a lot of it is going to come down to - We only have so many CPs to use with SFTS, and in most cases I don't think a regular ASM squad with flamers is ever going to be valuable enough to warrant it.

 

If were talking about the 2k points environment, were looking at either 6 or 9 CPs (I don't think anything other than double or single battalion is what we can squeeze in for 2k, brigade at 2k just feels very watered down). 

 

At least for me personally, I can't think of a target that I would want to burn 1 CP (and a deployment slot - 50% - restriction) on where 2 flamers and a charge from a handful of ASMs is worth it.

[Extropian]

Flamers are only worth it en masse in my opinion.

A handful from an Assault Squad for 1 CP....no.

12 from an Aggressor squad for 1 CP....much more likely.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Honestly would love to pick up 6 flame aggros, I like the look of them a lot more than the dakka ones, are cheaper and don't require shrike to maximize their potential. They're just huge value against melee armies that need to charge them to get them off, where it can be a pretty polarizing experience; dakka ones are at least great against any basic chaf unit

[Andrés Pacheco]

Honestly would love to pick up 6 flame aggros, I like the look of them a lot more than the dakka ones, are cheaper and don't require shrike to maximize their potential. They're just huge value against melee armies that need to charge them to get them off, where it can be a pretty polarizing experience; dakka ones are at least great against any basic chaf unit

Was thinking the same thing last night. Deploy 6 flame aggressors with SftS right in the way of those berzerkers/stealers/etc, and they've got to divert around you or eat 24D6 auto hits.

 

Couple of those protecting a buffed gunline would be devastating. Maybe not that fluffy, but strong.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Race Bannon
Refrain from dodging swear filter with abbreviations.

[autek mor]

Still think flamers are quite bad with the loss of templates, overwatch is a different story though. You're going to want to get that assault squad very close to use those flamers and are only effective really against guardsmen, boyz and gaunts i.e. things that come in blobs. So with d6 shots you won't be killing anywhere near enough to whittle that blob down to prevent them from massacring your unit.

 

I'm always repeating myself in these threads but a single Fire Raptor will solve an entire army's need for anti-infantry. Leaving everything else to go for anti-heavy/ anti-tank.

so with the stormraven being cheaper in points could you explain the benefits of investing more points into fielding a fire raptor?

[Race Bannon]

Firepower.  The amount it coughs out is reportedly just to the left of insane.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Dakka load out is 24 str5 -1 1dmg, 10 str6 -2 2dmg and 4 str8 -3 3dmg.

 

The raven has a bit more shots, but the raptor has way more damage output

[autek mor]

so instead of perhaps two stormravens and a stomtalon perhaps a stormraven and a fire raptor instead? the raven has that sweet transport space for a double bombard leviathan or other variant depending on what stragety you have in mind. this would be for a 2k points list.

[Biscuittzz]

so instead of perhaps two stormravens and a stomtalon perhaps a stormraven and a fire raptor instead? the raven has that sweet transport space for a double bombard leviathan or other variant depending on what stragety you have in mind. this would be for a 2k points list.

 

A double stormraven transporting double leviathans is a great way to lose friends list I guess. 

 

But sounds good anyway. My own list I'm looking at would contain 2 ravens and a fire raptor with possibly 2 ironclads.

[Race Bannon]

Not planning on keeping friends either Biscuittzz :lol:

[autek mor]

 

so instead of perhaps two stormravens and a stomtalon perhaps a stormraven and a fire raptor instead? the raven has that sweet transport space for a double bombard leviathan or other variant depending on what stragety you have in mind. this would be for a 2k points list.

 

A double stormraven transporting double leviathans is a great way to lose friends list I guess. 

 

But sounds good anyway. My own list I'm looking at would contain 2 ravens and a fire raptor with possibly 2 ironclads.

 

i would feel somewhat guilty about double a leviathan in a taxi list even though thats just over 1k points. doesn't leave much room to add much more. still, thanks for all the input guys, now its just matter of balancing the right amount of anti tank through out the rest of the list. the idea being that everything in the list has a -1 to hit on incoming fire.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Don't know if anyone's had the pleasure of getting vaped by Hellforged Cerberii supported by scorpii and a lord. But I'll take levi-raven over that

[autek mor]

i do like the new scorpius rules. plus it fits in nicely with the whole fighting from the shadows theme.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Don't know if anyone's had the pleasure of getting vaped by Hellforged Cerberii supported by scorpii and a lord. But I'll take levi-raven over that

Ill just come out an display my ignorance openly: what on earth are you talking about? I assume its forgeworld.