Open Your Mind: A Competitive CSM Discussion Thread

[Aothaine]

Hey everyone,

 

So I'm a huge fan of the Luna Wolves and the Black Legion. But I was reading through the Legion Focus: Renegades post and something clicked. With multiple detachments being able to be selected we can now build our lists around the best aspects of all legions. 

 

Interesting Synergies: 

 

Legion: Alpha Legion

1) Nurgle Sorcerer - & HS - Havoc Squad - Mark of Nurgle (-2 to hit the havocs and you wrap the sorcerer up inside the havocs)

 

Legion: Renegade

1) CSM x20 with Chainswords - Mark of Khorne (Khorne Stratagem)

 

Legion: Word Bearers

1) Dark Apostile & TROOP - Cultists

 

Legion: Iron Warriors

1) Slaanesh Sorcerer + Slaanesh Havoc/Noise Marines/Terminators (Double Tap)

 

 

 

 

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Some of these may seem simple and easy to spot but keep in mind that everyone is looking at this codex with different experiences. So lets share what we see. I'll add everything to this first post for ease of access.

 

Anyway what combos have you guys thought up yet?

 

I'll be updating this first post nightly.

 

 

Still working on the editing. I'll be getting it all setup by the weekend at the latest. I want to make sure it is clear and easy to navigate. I'm thinking about something like below...

 

Legion: Alpha Legion

 

Nurgle Suggestions

Sorcerer(MoN) & Havoc Squad(MoN):

(-2 to hit the havocs and you wrap the sorcerer up inside the Havocs)

 

Terminator Sorcerer/Lord(MoN) & Terminators(MoN):

(-2 to hit if 12" away and -1 otherwise, Plus the ability to regain wounds through Nurgle Stratagem. Also a very strong anvil unit)

 

 

Slaanesh Suggestions

filler

 

Tzeentch Suggestions

filler

 

Khorne Suggestions

filler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by Aothaine

[Amon777]

Less synergy and more just detachment choice with the new codex. A plug and play EC vanguard detachment is a powerful addition to any army for around 600pts. Idea is you can add this to a WE, deathguard, or renegade army for some much needed ranged support while your other detachment does it's thing.

 

If you make the DP your warlord give the elixer and the EC warlord trait with dual talons and you can mulch just about anything in the game.

 

Vanguard: 571

 

DP 181: dual talons, warp bolter

6 noise Marines 130: 5 Sonic blasters, 1 blast master

6 noise Marines 130: 5 Sonic blasters, 1 blast master

6 noise Marines 130: 5 Sonic blasters, 1 blast master

[Panzer]

 

Legion: Alpha Legion

HQ - Sorcerer - Nurgle & HS - Havoc Squad - Mark of Nurgle (-2 to hit the sorcerer and you wrap him up inside the havocs)

 

 

A -2 to-hit character seems a bit unnecessary, especially since one of the -1 to-hit modifier doesn't apply when the enemy is within 12"...which is likely to be the case if the enemy manages to be in a position without another unit between him and the character.

 

Tho what should be strong is the following.

 

Legion: Iron Warriors/Alpha Legion

HQ - Lord or Slaanesh Sorcerer

&

Heavy Support - Slaanesh Havocs

or

Elite - Noise Marines

or

Elite - Slaanesh Terminators

 

As Iron Warriors you can get a super durable Warlord and your shooty units ignore cover + can double tap due being Slaaneshi. Obviously Noise Marines wouldn't be the ideal choice here since they already ignore Cover on their own.

As Alpha Legion you basically get the same thing but instead of ignoring Cover you are harder to hit most of the time due the long range of most heavy weapons. Obviously the Terminators wouldn't be the ideal choice here due them wanting to be close to the enemy.

 

The crux here obviously is to abuse the double tap Stratagem for Slaanesh units and Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion are simply the two Legions with the only useful traits for such a unit. With the Sorcerer you could also give them a 5+ FnP which should be especially annoying for the enemy on a Alpha Legion unit. ;)

[Blackheart1223]

Currently looking at a 3 Detachment/Legion army:

 

Black Legion Vanguard:

Abaddon

Terminator Sorcerer

3 Termie squads

 

Red Cosair Outrider:

Jump Lord

3x3 Bikes with double melta

 

Word Bearer Battalion:

Dark Apostle

Lots of Cultists

[Aothaine]

 

A -2 to-hit character seems a bit unnecessary, especially since one of the -1 to-hit modifier doesn't apply when the enemy is within 12"...which is likely to be the case if the enemy manages to be in a position without another unit between him and the character.

 

 

Lol! Another error on my part. You would bless the havocs and not the sorcerer. You hide to sorcerer inside the havocs so he cannot be shot with anything except snipers and make the Havoc squad get the -2 to hit buff.

[Panzer]

That makes more sense. :D

Tho I think I'd still prefer the option to give them a 5+ FnP and to let them double tap instead. Slaanesh ftw. :P

[Aothaine]

That makes more sense.

Tho I think I'd still prefer the option to give them a 5+ FnP and to let them double tap instead. Slaanesh ftw.

 

It is a toss up though right? -2 to hit means marines are hitting on 5+ and IG are hitting on 6+ and I think other units like Orks can't hit you at all right? The negative modifier always happens after the roll so a 6 -2 would be 4. Means you have to roll less saves which is always good. But you don't get the attack twice stratagem though. But depending on the list you're facing I could totally see the need for that. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Aothaine

[Cryptix]

Supreme Command Detachment (Renegades)

- Dark Apostle with Power Maul

- Exalted Champion with Power Axe

- Chaos Sorceror with Force Sword

- 17 Berserkers with Chainaxes and Chainswords

- Kharbydis

842 points, a psychic power, and 4 command points gets you 102 attacks that hit a land raider on rerollable 2s and wounds it on rerollable 4s. I don't know the math on it but it sounds pretty bad for the raider. In case of hordes, swap to your chainaxe and get 204 attacks instead that likely wound on rerollable 2s.

[Plaguecaster]

Supreme Command Detachment (Renegades)

- Dark Apostle with Power Maul

- Exalted Champion with Power Axe

- Chaos Sorceror with Force Sword

- 17 Berserkers with Chainaxes and Chainswords

- Kharbydis

842 points, a psychic power, and 4 command points gets you 102 attacks that hit a land raider on rerollable 2s and wounds it on rerollable 4s. I don't know the math on it but it sounds pretty bad for the raider. In case of hordes, swap to your chainaxe and get 204 attacks instead that likely wound on rerollable 2s.

You would still still have to take addition units as you have to deploy at least half your army during deployment as part of the tactical reserves rule which prevents full drop pod armies well in matched point games anyway

 

 

I'm sort of doing The similar thing but focused more on shooting for 2k games

 

Vanguard detachment

Sorcerer

8 Possessed

4 Helbrutes with twin lascannons and scourge

Kharybdis

 

Spearhead detachment

Dark apostle

Spawn

2x 5 autocannon havocs

Deredero with butcher cannon array, twin heavy bolters and greater havoc launcher

 

Apostle, sorcerer, havocs and possessed all go in the Kharybdis which will drop right in the middle of the enemy to blast them with full Dakka from the havocs and Kharybdis then the sorcerer will warp time the possessed into combat with the nearest unit. The dreads and spawn (who is only there as a 6th unit so I have half of my army on the field for the tactical reserves rule) advance on the enemy seeking to link up with the rest of my army blasting anything that gets in there way with spawn being a sucidal unit. I actually think iron warriors would benefit my army the most as the no cover could be bloody nice

Edited August 9, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Cryptix]

It's only 842 points, so you're free to run a brigade detachment of cultists, warpsmiths, spawn, and havoc.

[Gordon Shumway]

Or you can just deploy it on the table. Chaos drop pods do not have to set up in reserves. Flying Land Raiders FTW!

[Ghorgul]

Or you can just deploy it on the table. Chaos drop pods do not have to set up in reserves. Flying Land Raiders FTW!

I agree, I'm increasingly thinking that both Dreadclaw and Kharybdis might work a little better being deployed on table in some cases instead of doing deep strike, depending on situation naturally. This is mostly because A) I prefer saving my CPs for other situations than re-rolling first turn charges B) Enemy has more target priorities at early game.

For second turn you would have threat range of 15"+D6"+3"+6"+2D6" averaging to 34,5" likely maximum charge range for embarked units. And take out advance roll so anything about 27-28" away from dreadclaws is reachable by the embarked unit(s), even if dreadclaw gets shot down which isnt so bad if that keeps your predator or similar alive.

One should consider also the fact that at one of the latest tournaments generally sort of beta strike armies fared better, or so it was reported, so I am not sure if alpha strike is the way to go anyway.

Of course making the choice with drop pods depends a lot on enemy army and its deployment and reserves, but also your own army composition. You should have some other targets available for enemy anti-vehicle fire if you wanna do this as otherwise they unload everything on the drop pod flying at them.

 

Most important thing about Dreadclaw and Kharybdis is that their deep strike rule forces you to disembark on the same turn they arrive, essentially forcing you to either try to get the charge off or just stand and shoot and opening the units for enemy fire/assault for one turn, which doesn't happen if you start at table and fly towards the enemy instead.

[Brother Aiwass]

For renegades, zerkers are way better than CSM with chainswords, and the kharybdis detachment idea is fawesome. I'm going to keep that one for the far future for sure.

 

And also this:

 

2x5 slaaneshi havocs with flamers and combiflamer champ in a rhino are going to break some faces.

 

Another one (that I'm not going to use... yet) is this:

 

DS 10 Slaanesh terminators with combi plasma, with sorc and lord. Cast FnP, cast prescience, unleash 20 plasma shots (hit on 2+, re-roll 1's), use the lovely slaaneshi strata, unleash 20 plasma shots again (still hit on 2+, re-roll 1's). The killing is going to be legendary.

 

19,4 hits

16 wounds

13,5 dead MEQ

or

10,8 dead TEQ

 

Edit:

 

If you want to be sure to kill Guilliman, swap fnp for Death Hex and he'll eat 10,8 unsaved wounds at D2. If not, he's going to take 4,31 unsaved wounds (8,62 dmg). This is with one volley.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Brother Aiwass

[Panzer]

For renegades, zerkers are way better than CSM with chainswords, and the kharybdis detachment idea is fawesome. I'm going to keep that one for the far future for sure.

 

And also this:

 

2x5 slaaneshi havocs with flamers and combiflamer champ in a rhino are going to break some faces.

 

Another one (that I'm not going to use... yet) is this:

 

DS 10 Slaanesh terminators with combi plasma, with sorc and lord. Cast FnP, cast prescience, unleash 20 plasma shots (hit on 2+, re-roll 1's), use the lovely slaaneshi strata, unleash 20 plasma shots again (still hit on 2+, re-roll 1's). The killing is going to be legendary.

 

19,4 hits

16 wounds

13,5 dead MEQ

or

10,8 dead TEQ

 

Edit:

 

If you want to be sure to kill Guilliman, swap fnp for Death Hex and he'll eat 10,8 unsaved wounds at D2. If not, he's going to take 4,31 unsaved wounds (8,62 dmg). This is with one volley.

Never did the numbers for that...but wow.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Iron Father Ferrum
Keep it clean.

[Brother Aiwass]

Hold on Panzer!

 

The numbers for said slaaneshi flamer havocs are here (including the strata on one of the havoc units):

 

52,5 hits

35 wounds vs GEQ

29,1 dead GEQ

or

26,25 wounds vs MEQ

8,75 dead MEQ

 

^_^

[Panzer]

Haha, I know the numbers for mass flamer already tho. Crisis Suits with Flamer are one of my favorite units currently. ;)

[Iron_Within]

So for Iron Warriors:

 

2 units of Cultists blobs plus Slaanesh Daemon Prince w. 2+ Relic armour and Iron Warrior Warlord Trait + Tide of Traitors Strategem.

 

The Tide of Traitors is not a Summoning, so doesn't work the same way in matched play (as in you don't pay points for it). So what you have is between 40-80 meat sacks that are immune to Morale, with 6+5++6+++ (if needed) that can come back for 1CP. Equip them with Autoguns for constant ranged firepower or Autopistols and CCW and run them forward. They are a big blob that your opponent cannot ignore as they will claim every objective if allowed to (due to Despoilers of the Galaxy). The Daemon Prince as Warlord grants the Morale immunity and will be very hard to shift with 2+ and regenerating 1 wound a turn who can jump in if things get to hairy.

 

Alternative to this is using Marines instead of Cultists for a hardier units that are harder to shift in the first instance but would not come back via Tide of Traitors.

 

 Obliterators Plus Strategems and optional Sorcerer

Deep Strike away from the main line at decent distance (taking advantage of the 24" range) and use Endless Cacophany (If Slaanesh and not using the above) or Veterans of the Long War. Best Deep striking best to place it where it has an option of targets. The intent is a distraction Carnifex. Add a Terminator Sorcerer to drop in with them.

[OnboardG1]

Bit of a copy pasta from the Night Lords thread but:

 

Dark Apostle (warlord, Lord of Terror)

9 Berzerkers (chainaxes, chainsword)

Rhino

Exalted Champ (Power Axe)

9 Berzerkers (chainaxes, chainsword)

Rhino

Decimator, two butcher cannons (or contemptor with butcher cannon)

Raptors (Nurgle Mark, Icon of Despair)

 

60 odd attacks, enemy tests at -8 if you stack the debuffs and has to roll 2d6 morale and take the highest. You're likely to even force ork boyz to run off the table. The only issue is conscript/cultist chaff backed by commissars/iron warrior warlord but at the end of the day you're throwing disgusting amounts of attacks that wound chaff units on 2s. You can also bring a sorcerer along with Gift of Chaos to gribbly up enemy buff characters (a successful connection will instagib a commissar).

[Iron_Within]

Perhaps add deep striking terminator/ raptors with a sorcerer for warp gaze sniping and warp time and/or a separate detachment of r&h with Marauder snipers and psyker for taking out characters

[Trevak Dal]

Khorne Berserkers with Renegade chapter tactics sound interesting...

[Extropian]

I think Renegades or Alpha Legion will both run Berzerkers very well. For pure face wrecking, obviously World Eaters wins but the other 2 actually help deliver the Zerks. And frankly, you don't NEED the extra attack on the charge for Zerks....

 

The turn 1 charge from Alpha legion Berzerker waves is pretty scary stuff.

[Sagentus]

I agree the renegade chapter tactics look great with bezerkers. I am contemplating adding Fabius Bile to my Khornate Cohort, always like him

[tbone]

Melee oriented Renegade Hellbrutes seem optimal if you don't want to spend points on delivery options. With sorcerer backup, I'd run the brutes with scourge and twin heavy bolter(cuz it's cheap). Diabolic strength and warptime on a brute and you may have yourself a pretty nasty turn one charge.

[Brother Aiwass]

Slaanesh Demon Prince with wings

 

S7 A4

Elixir +1S & +1A

Pair of Talons +3A

Psy: Diabolic Strength +2S & +1A

Psy: Delightful Agonies FnP 5+

EC warlord trait: +1A for each wound suffered up to +3

 

Potential: M12" S10 T6 W8 A9 (up to A12) 3+ 5++ 5+++ <Fly>

[Panzer]

Slaanesh Demon Prince with wings

 

S7 A4

Elixir +1S & +1A

Pair of Talons +3A

Psy: Diabolic Strength +2S & +1A

Psy: Delightful Agonies FnP 5+

EC warlord trait: +1A for each wound suffered up to +3

 

Potential: M12" S10 T6 W8 A9 (up to A12) 3+ 5++ 5+++ <Fly>

Great, just tell everyone what my Warlord can do. :D