Would you find this acceptable at your gaming group/table?

[Kastor Krieg]

At the FLGS I worked at for a time, we had street kids (well, teens) who became very enamoured with the idea of then-WFB and 40k, who could never afford miniatures of their own, but wanted to play and agreed to help out for the chance of playing with the shop's demo miniatures. Some of them became very proficient at the games we sold and were hired part time.

Way better for them than stand around the parks and drink booze like their friends did, IMO.

[Blindhamster]

 

I find your stances on the matter personally insulting to players who take the time, spend the money and make the effort to model their armies appropriately.

 

You're EXPECTING them to be accommodating to you. That's selfish.

I have zero expectations. I am willing to accomodate those less fortunate (in time, wealth, opportunity, etc.) and would like to be afforded the same kindness. It's no skin off my nose and fortunately I rarely if ever will require the favour returned.

 

On the other hand, I see that you have only the strictest expectations of your opponents, purely because you were priviledged enough to have the money, time and opportunity to be able to spend the effort. I will allow others to judge which stance is the one guided by one's ego.

 

 

Just playing devils advocate, but what Ishagu is trying to say (I think...?) is that he can't see why you wouldn't use the models "as equipped", there are valid reasons of course.

 

But in a lot of cases, its less a case of "I can't possibly use my army the way i modelled it" and more a case of "I don't want to use the army the way I modelled it.

 

In the example of the guy with lots of tacticals with flamers, and a couple with plasma and melta, he COULD have just dropped a marine with a plasma from one squad, and had about enough points to field the other plasma gun and melta gun elsewhere.

 

Some people are used to tournament scenes and things like that, where the more casual approach is less common/not allowed. Ishagu has basically made it clear he is that very kind of player. He's not being entitled, he's simply pointing out that thats what he's used to and has come to expect.

 

I've said a few times that I PREFER WYSIWYG, I find an army full of proxies irritating. But equally, I know other players will find my not fully painted (but not just grey either) army just as irritating. I'll accommodate proxying other stuff so long as the player has made an effort to make it clear without me needing to repeatedly ask "oh what is that supposed to be again". Third party models that are clearly modelled/converted to be something are never an issue outside of official GW events/stores.

 

With the ease of access to individual bits, and the fact most people build up a respectable bitz box over time, it's pretty easy to model stuff, especially if you have friends (I for example gave 10 plasma guns to a mate so he could do a support squad for his heresy army). Equally, it's not really reasonable to expect that people should buy everything before they've had time to try them in games and see what its like.

 

Final thought - different people like different parts of the hobby, some love to game and care very little about making and painting toy soldiers, so want to do the minimum they have to do be able to play, I have a few friends like that, others love to build stuff and build all sorts of crazy stuff that isn't remotely "legal" but looks cool, I have friends like that too. Then others like to build and paint stuff, whilst trying to make things exactly as they are on the box, i don't personally know anyone like that. Then others like to do fancy conversions and make things look unique whilst keeping them WYSIWYG - the last category is what I personally do. But I also personally care less about the game itself so am happy to use armies with models equipped however I built them, rather than what is optimal.

[Dantay VI]

You can get 100 2x1mm rare earth magnets for £3, the drill bits not much as is the mini drill. For the person starting out, I would let them use my tools and even lend a few magnets to show  how it is done.

 

Minimal outlay would then yield maximum results for someone starting out.

 

A cheaper altenative is a 0.5 or 1mm drill and a bit of wire glued to either weapon or hand and used to attach weapons.

 

I understand that for someone with an army that they have lovingly worked on may not wish to snap weapons off and if proxying to try something out is cool, but I guess if you have been running an army using plasma weapons for the past year and they have flamers modelled on, I would expect over the year you could have maybe saved up to get the plasmas from a bits site, or somesuch.

 

Similarly a guy with an army is wanting to try a new army, for the first game or so, thats fine. If it was radically different (like using gaunts as crisis suits) maybe see if someone in the gaming group could loan out their tau for the afternoon.

 

I am fortunate tat I can field my Wolves in almost any combo and my regular gaming friend has almost all 40K armies, so when I want to switch up I can borrow one of his. 

 

Also very much like what Blindhamster said.

[Arkangilos]

I'm 100 percent behind Kastor Krieg

[Bryan Blaire]

What I can't fathom is "What is lost to you if I play an army of Orks turned 'bio-psychos' with small Mind-over-Matter nubs in their heads (reference the Rifts RPG) running the Necron rules with my own personally converted weapons" or "What is lost to you if I absolutely hate the GW appearance of plasma guns and run every single plasma gun in my army modeled with meltas" or "What is lost to you if one entire squad of Company Vets in my army is modeled with twin power blades instead of lightning claws because I think it actually represents what the rules for lightning claws indicate and I think it looks cooler"?

 

I've got absolutely no reason to magnetize any of that, and it absolutely fits my thoughts on 40K and what I think is cool. Almost every reason I have seen given for why people don't want other people to use things revolves around "It makes it harder for me", "I don't like it", or "It doesn't make the game look the way I want it to." There has been nothing given out about anyone but yourself.

 

Sorry, but "your vision of 40K" doesn't mean a whole lot except to you and maybe your close friends, not even to GW, and neither does mine. However, the company is totally accepting of my vision of it being different than theirs (because they don't actually care), and even their own authors are allowed to have a different vision of it, as long as they abide by whatever rules GW has for their IP. There's a whole lot of "my my my" in this thread, and very little actual consideration for others, aside from "Well, maybe for a little while"...

 

It's sad that this game has gone from a "cool ideas sandbox" to "Slavishly obey the Officialness! It is all that we can allow!"

[Blindhamster]

If your army is consistent, i.e. the example of all melta guns being plasma guns, there's no issue.

 

If you run an army of 3rd party mad max style humans as orks and all the guys with slugga and choppa are consistent, then there is no issue there either.

 

Also, just to point out, the idea that someone has to play you with non standard models is just as "me me me".

 

Ultimately, an army of art scale marines using terminators as a base and a land raiders without sponsors as rhinos is technically also proxying, but it's consistent and easy to keep track of for both players. Plus I can appreciate the effort put in.

 

I imagine ishagu would be happy to play that too.

 

Your view is no more right than his. My view seems to fall somewhere in a middle ground where I think it's fine so long as some effort went in to make things clear.

 

My view is also in line with GWs from an official tournament perspective last I saw (minus 3rd party obviously). Proxy away, but he a good sportsman and if you call a melta gun a plasma gun, call all the melta guns plasma guns. If you call a catachan squad an ork mob with shootas, call all the catachan ork mobs with shootas.

[Blindhamster]

P.s. wow, the vitriol from some people on all sides of this is depressing.

[Demus Ragnok]

I've never had a gaming group. Or a local store to go play at.

 

After reading this thread I don't feel I've missed much.

 

And that's a bit disappointing.

[Schlitzaf]

Exactly what Blind just said. Your extrapolating, or exaggerating size and puritanical behavior of the the "Only Offacial, No Proxies".

 

For sake of example I am only really against proxies when intent is malicious (for example the reason the kid in the OP wanted to use Green Army Men and not the actual models.). And for the "it's all about me," well yes.

 

If I sit down to play a game WITH someone I expect a certain level of courteously. Not a headache of trying to figure what is what. When I play a game WITH someone, is implied I agree to follow a standard they set. It takes two to tango or to play a game of 40K normally.

 

I had a game normally, where after deployment. My opponent shot me with a unit of Skitari Vangaurd. When he did so, he fired the unit if it had 10 Plasma. I called him out on it. Then he accused me of power gaming. I explained to him what happened.

 

Then he said I wasn't 'casual'. We both packed up after that. I know I won't play against him anytime soon and he properly won't play against me anytime soon. There are other issues that occurred but that is beside the point.

 

The expectation of courtous behavior was broken and the game ended just as it had begun. If want to proxy a GK Falchion as a Lighting Claws, sure. Feel free. But be consistent.

 

I came here to game. Not have a headache as your proxies have no reasonable rhyme or reason to them. If you want to use Missile Launcher A as a Lascannon- sure. But then don't try and also proxy Missile Launcher be as a Plasma Cannon. You want to use a several Squads of Wyches as a Kabalite Warrior sure.

 

But then don't run actual Wyches as Wyches. It's annoying and difficult. Furthermore don't try and hide behind "it's a casual, so that means anything goes". It's casual, so we are here for a good time. If you are gonna proxy your list in such a way that unreasonably difficult to determine X is Y.

 

That isn't proxying that is being purposefully difficult and annoying. If you think your opponent doesn't matter, go play with yourself. If you agree to play a game with someone it's not unreasonable that you should to conform to some vague standards. Just as it wouldn't be unreasonable for your opponent to conform to your own vague set of standards. As I said at the start it takes two people normally to play a game of 40K.

[Blindhamster]

Find a group of like-minded people and it's great, honestly.

[Bryan Blaire]

Also, just to point out, the idea that someone has to play you with non standard models is just as "me me me".

I don't think I said "Has to play"...

 

I'm perfectly fine with people not wanting to play my armies, I don't wrangle people into games. I pretty much refuse to play pick-up games anyway, and when I arrange games, I ask if people are okay with this or that. I am also courteous and generally bring them a copy of my army list with unit notes, as i already said. I am also consistent if I do use alternative weapons. I don't expect or require things like that of my opponent, though, and I make sure I have a good lay of the land before the game starts, and will even make my own notes for things if I need to remember something.

 

Most people haven't been arguing for consistency though, they have been arguing that proxying is bad, makes things harder for your opponent, etc., and in some situations, that it out right deceptive and morally defunct. The models themselves don't do all that, the opponent does that. If you simply need consistency in proxying, then say that. Otherwise what is said is what is meant (that's the nature of text only communication- what is written is what was said).

 

I do understand the viewpoint of only wanting to see the official stuff on the table. I don't agree with it, but I understand. Some people do wish conform to the "official view", it's not necessarily bad thing (I think it's pretty limiting personally), it's just what it is. I also don't require my opponent's view of the universe to match mine, just that we agree to the way we are going to play the game.

 

Someone is going to have to work a bit more at trying to explain why "non-standard" models are selfish though. That still doesn't make any sense.

 

Your view is no more right than his. My view seems to fall somewhere in a middle ground where I think it's fine so long as some effort went in to make things clear.

Right? I don't think a specific view on a game on whether something is acceptable when there isn't an official rule about it can actually be right. Is my view more open and accepting and less restrictive? You bet it is. Yours sounds like it is as well. I'm not really interested in "being right" about this so much as I am anti-people being unconditionally restrictive for no reason other than "I can't handle it" for whatever reason.

 

My view is also in line with GWs from an official tournament perspective last I saw (minus 3rd party obviously).

I haven't actually seen an official GW tournament anything in a few years that wasn't a direct product of a specific location, so i'd be interested to read a GW tourney pack, just to see if it is different from what my store was given back in the Rogue Trafer store days.

 

I do agree that consistency is key. Unfortunately not many folks have been arguing for consistency in proxies, just that proxies are bad.

[Schlitzaf]

The only person who said that proxying is morally bankrupt has been myself (and Ishagu) and atleast for me only under a specific set of criteria. No one really beside Ishagu has been trying to argue proxies are innately bad. People have stated given preferences, and what they would rather but no one has said "proxies are bad". You're arguing against a viewpoint that isn't really represented. And in the case of Ishagu agree with it or not, he does have sound basis (the proxying folks never get around to fixing or changing the models despite claims otherwise).

[Blindhamster]

i actually find this thread kind of funny now i think about it, I especially find it amusing that we have been... discussing (arguing sounds too strong a word) something that I think you and I (and probably some others too) are actually on the same page about :D

It occurs to me, perhaps the issue, is the definition of "proxy"? I guess to different people it means different things? For example..

There is counts as (something where you're either making a non standard model to be a special character, or IMO something like using a pigs of war funky looking gun to be all the plasma guns in the army for example) Which for me covers most of your examples of a proxy.

proxy to many has more of a negative connotation associated for many I guess, possibly through bad experiences or whatever. 

Definitely comes down to consistency to me more than anything else I guess. I'd happily play a tau army where the tau are all human models with fancy sci fi weapons or whatever, so long as I feel like i have a clue about whats what and more importantly - so does my opponent.

As an example of the bad experience side, I've played numerous opponents over the years that say something is X, then they themselves "forget" and try to use it as what its modelled at later in the game, I've even had that recently with an ally in a game that had an ancient with a "power sword", the model had no close combat weapon at all, then when fighting in melee at a different point he was using it as a power fist till i pointed out he'd only payed for a power fist... but it shouldn't be my job to remind another player what their own stuff is armed with. If stuff is modelled accurately (even if its not official GW stuff) then that sort of thing doesn't happen (or at least I've not seen it happen, which is somewhat anecdotal)

[Brother Captain Sirus]

I will agree this discussion has gone on a rollercoaster ride, and i think a few points can easily be addressed.

 

With the internet being what it is a few people have probably come across sounding more hardline on the topic of proxies than they are or have spoken only from one particular stand point.

 

To cover it all in a few basic points this seems to be the general group attitude:

- proxies should be consistant if used.

- generally players are happier allowing proxies against players who they know aka friends, regulars at their LGS who they feel they can trust

- less trusting or less likely to play a random pick up game if the opposing player is using a high number of proxies

- willing to let a friend proxy an entire army to see whether they should start that army

- frown upon proxies if they are using it because it is the new editions must have wargear.

- accepting of 3rd party models if they are clear as to what they are meant to be. Same can be said for convertions.

- if it is an OOP gw model or a starter set model that no longer matches the new entry, thats fine and gw should change the entry to match, generally covered in index at this point.

- just want to have fun playing the game, and sometimes trying to follow too many proxies can be detrimental if the player in control of said proxies forgets them as often as you do.

- and finally, really just want to have a couple of hours fun with the models they have spent along time painting.

[Dantay VI]

I do not think I have argued anything.

 

And this is about what people would find acceptable. Everyone has their own definition of what is acceptable to them.

 

Ishagu has his version, I have mine Blindhamster his and Kastor, Blaire et all have theirs. And none of us should have to justify to the other why we have that opinion or be told it is wrong

 

Blaine, here is the link, you can download the pack and check the rules. Not because I am saying anything you said is wrong but you said you would be interested in seeing it.

 

https://20889-presscdn-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/40K8_Grand_Tournament_Rules_Pack_FINAL.pdf

 

https://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/warhammer-40000-grand-tournament/

 

 

Also you seem to be coming off as a bit confrontational. Just because I said about magnetising does not make me an elitist snob( and yes it was directed at me I think, as I am the only one to mention the metallic objects). Its a way of helping others who may be on a budget or want to learn new skills. I would not turn down a game with the guy (or girl) if they did not want to change their model in any way shape or form, but if they are using that flamer as a plasma in one game, a melta in another a flamer in the next, why not offer them an option. Maybe they want to but not sure the best way to do it as they never tried etc. Who knows.

 

Also loaner armies can sometimes help fire the imagination for the one trying them out, plus it is easier if the models look like the actual models being used for both the person playing the army and the person learning the army. Especially if they are radically different.

 

 

So what is the diffreernce between 'counts-as" and proxying?

[Claws and Effect]

Counts-as: The model in question could reasonably be said to use the rules of what it is counting as. A model painted as a Raven Guard Captain wielding twin lightning claws and a jump pack as a counts-as Shrike is my go-to example. I am planning this exact counts-as for 2 reasons. 1) The official Shrike model is only available as Finecast or pewter. No plastic model exists for him to my knowledge and I don't want to deal with Finecast. 2) The official model has one of the most awkward and ridiculous looking poses ever. Very Sound of Music. 

 

Proxy: The model is clearly something else but is being used to stand in for a model the player does not actually possess. I'm okay with proxies for the purpose of trying new things out or needing a particular unit type to round out a list. Using Assault Marines to stand in for Tacticals because you need another Troops choice and only have 10 Tacticals would be a good example. I would allow it provided the weapons are easily recognizable. Plasma pistol guy standing in for plasma gun, etc. I would assume everyone else just had bolters (bolt pistols). Chainswords would just be ignored. Not proxying for advantage in that case because Tacticals are really nothing special.

 

Wanting to use an action figure to proxy a Wraithknight? Maybe once. Keep doing it and I'll probably stop playing you.  

[Bryan Blaire]

Blaine, here is the link, you can download the pack and check the rules. Not because I am saying anything you said is wrong but you said you would be interested in seeing it.

 

https://20889-presscdn-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/40K8_Grand_Tournament_Rules_Pack_FINAL.pdf

 

https://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/warhammer-40000-grand-tournament/

 

Thanks! That is what I was talking about being a location specific ruleset though - those are for the Warhammer World specifically. I don't think that GW actually supports tournaments really any more like they used to. The Rogue Trader stores used to have a specific tourney ruleset we were to use, and we reported tourney results to GW for prize support.

 

So what is the diffreernce between 'counts-as" and proxying?

I actually don't know. If I use all missile launchers with plasma warheads because I like the look of them more than plasma cannons, did I "counts-as" or proxy? Does it even matter?

 

As far as the magnets, I just don't view them as a solution to proxies. I am all for their use if they are what you want to do, and offering to assist/telling someone about them is cool, but I just wouldn't do it because someone is proxying things.

[Arkangilos]

... plasma warheads for making plasma cannons out of missile launchers model wise... that's awesome

[Brother Captain Sirus]

... plasma warheads for making plasma cannons out of missile launchers model wise... that's awesome

The FW missile launchers (the non shoulder version) and some converting magic maybe?

[the jeske]

The only person who said that proxying is morally bankrupt has been myself (and Ishagu) and atleast for me only under a specific set of criteria. No one really beside Ishagu has been trying to argue proxies are innately bad. People have stated given preferences, and what they would rather but no one has said "proxies are bad". You're arguing against a viewpoint that isn't really represented. And in the case of Ishagu agree with it or not, he does have sound basis (the proxying folks never get around to fixing or changing the models despite claims otherwise).

Aha take a look at Refusees roady slanesh army. If you went 'only official parts" the army, which is a marvel of conversion, would be totaly illegal. In fact for most chaos stuff it is like that. Lets ignore for a second the fact that chain axs, who are basic gear to zerkers like bolters are to tacticals[and why I find comparing them to taking plasma that are flamers etc]. And ignore the fact that some fully legal GW models for chaos have illegal weapon load outs .

But what about those huge axs WE players offten have modeled instead of power fists? Or mutations like tentacles for arms.  It is a chaos thing, suddenly it is bad to do that conversions, because someone may get confused after reading an army list?

Only time I could argument in favor of such army building, is if either someone owned a store [and wanted to maximize sells] or had bits recasting/reselling shop. Other wise it seems like to be trying to make the game worse for other people on the sole basis of them not being you[which I also understand].

[sockwithaticket]

 And in the case of Ishagu agree with it or not, he does have sound basis (the proxying folks never get around to fixing or changing the models despite claims otherwise).

  That's some generalisation you've made there, yes indeed. It's also nonsense unless you're qualifying it with a very specific 'in my area' or 'in my experience'.

 

Obviously some people will try and proxy for ever, but plenty of others try out stuff for several games and then start building the actual unit. Hell plenty of people on here mention this in their painting and modelling threads.

[Adeptus]

 

Someone is going to have to work a bit more at trying to explain why "non-standard" models are selfish though. That still doesn't make any sense.

 

To counter a question with a question, why can't people just use the rules for the models they have?

 

Now let's leave aside the obvious answers: People who have legacy equipment that's no longer (or was never) valid, people who are trialling something new, people who are making do due to lost or forgottten models, etc. I'm not talking about those guys. I'm talking about the guy running all his plasma guns as melta guns just because he wants to.

 

Why can't he just use the rules for plasma guns? Why does he have to use them as meltas? 

[Dragonlover]

I can think of a reason: he's unemployed and all his money goes on the bills and food. And before you get all snooty, I *was* that guy a few years back, and the hobby was one of the few things keeping me sane during it. Choose the words in your rebuttal carefully.

 

Dragonlover

[Kobrakei]

That's part of the contract of the game though surely. The best thing to do I've found is ask your opponent! I've got three Tactical Squads with Gravguns that I built in 6th. I've run them variously over 6th, 7th and 8th as either Gravguns or Plasma Guns, because of the way 8th changed how both guns work, and also because sometimes I just feel like running Plasma. I doubt there's that much of a difference between the two. But I've always asked my opponent. Some have said fire away, others have said no dice. And that's not an issue. Their immersion in the game is just as vaild as mine, and if that's what it takes for both of us to have a fun game then I'll cope.

 

Of course, this runs the other way. I have a friend who plays net lists as much as possible, and will, for example, use Carnifexes in an Ork army as dreadnoughts because he's not willing to spend an amount of money on an appropriate model (note I didn't say where that model had to come from, if it comes direct from GW, or 3rd party models, or if it's been bought on Ebay). This bugs the life out of me as I want to play against an army that looks cohesive. I don't mind if it's not painted or super fully built, as long as I have a rough idea, and I don't mind decent proxies (say a Big Mek representing a Warboss), because that doesn't ruin my immersion. It's still an awesome horde of Orks I'm going to have to fight my way through. The moment he slaps that Carnifex/Deffdred proxy down, I remember that these are all just game pieces and I enjoy the game less.

[Garreck]

 

Why can't he just use the rules for plasma guns? Why does he have to use them as meltas?

 

In a game that is predicated entirely on mental abstraction, what does it matter? If it's not clearly modeling for advantage and if I can easily track what's being proxied, I don't feel like it's my place to insist someone invest more time and more money just for the privilege of playing me. I frankly find that attitude abhorrent. (Store owners HAVE to look at this differently because they're running a business, not a gaming charity. I'm just talking about me as a player and what I invest vice what someone else chooses to invest.)

 

And I think some folks have severely twisted the concept of modeling for advantage. Again understanding that this is all abstraction, what the item is in the model's hands doesn't matter. As long as the model can carry the item you're saying it is and you've paid the points for it, no modeling for advantage has occurred. Modeling for advantage revolves around proxying huge models with small ones to alter the mechanics of line of sight, or massively abusing base sizes to alter the mechanics of combat.

 

The limit for me is human error (can I keep track, can my opponent keep track.) Yes, I've definitely played games where I felt my opponent was trying to use proxies to obfuscate what's what and force me into bad tactical decisions. That's not cool.