Would you find this acceptable at your gaming group/table?

[Schlitzaf]

I started playing this game against a card stock Ork Dread. I have since played against a Necron army that was forever Orks with a Biovore "Nightbringer." Once you do that, you can play against anything, even paper tokens.

My models are for me, not my opponents. Playing the game is for both my opponents and me. Acting like my models are for you is one of the attitudes I can't abide by. I don't have to match my opponent's anything - whether that's gaming skill, painting skill, modeling choices or thoughts on 40K/GW.

If a potential opponent doesn't want to play me, that's their call. I refuse to play people too. It is always because of their attitude, never because of their models.

Now, this guy's attitude is :cuss, regardless of his models. He isn't anything for his personal choice in models, but he is for denigrating anyone else's personal investments into the hobby.

The models are acceptable (yes, he should at least put them on appropriately sized paper circles, at the minimum), but the attitude toward other players isn't.

The moment you set your models on the table and we agree to a game. For the next 1-2 hours, you enter a 'contract' with your opponent of some measure of reasonable expectations. If I cannot look at your models, and tell what they are armed with on a moment's notice then something is wrong. If you try and excuse yourself 'but their my models why should you care?' It's like bringing a WWII cosplay to a Medieval Themed Larping Event. I want to see cool armies and cool models. Sometimes that means proxies.

 

But it is important that I can tell what each unit is easily. So while your right those models are your own, you should be courteous to your opponent. I think is the larger deal that whatever your proxying it. After all it takes two players to play a game. Well normally.

[Bulwyf]

People have asked what little green army men I was referring to in the OP. I apologize for my American belief that these toys from our chlldhood were a worldwide toy. This is what I am talking about:

 

 

Apparently I missed him having a bit of a row with some true grognards today at the FLGS. He brought his bag of army men and his partly assembled plague marines looking for games. His attitude of before was in full swing. He did find one game until he talked about how he was never going to spend money at the store...and didn't know he was playing the store owner. That went over about as well as a heretic confessing to an Inquisitor that he didn't really think the Emperor was a god.

 

He was told the store policy that while they don't directly charge for tables it is expected that you, the gamer, at some point do purchase something from the store to enable the store to host tables and events. The guy laughed at that and said unless he was told directly to buy something he would continue using his little green men. He was asked not to return back unless his attitude changes.

It is funny how our hobby has that unspoken understanding of supporting the store to enable free gaming tables and it remains unspoken until something like that happens.

 

I can't say I will miss the experience of playing against little green army men. I don't want to sound like an elitist but my playing time is limited and frankly I'd rather play ppl that care enough to at least try and field decent armies. If that guy was willing to actually try then I would have taken him under my wing, same as my local gamers. There are several new gamers we've introduced to the hobby. Wish this guy would have been one of them but...well, just like Papa Nurgle says you can't save 'em all.

[Bryan Blaire]

The moment you set your models on the table and we agree to a game. For the next 1-2 hours, you enter a 'contract' with your opponent of some measure of reasonable expectations. If I cannot look at your models, and tell what they are armed with on a moment's notice then something is wrong. If you try and excuse yourself 'but their my models why should you care?' It's like bringing a WWII cosplay to a Medieval Themed Larping Event. I want to see cool armies and cool models. Sometimes that means proxies.

 

But it is important that I can tell what each unit is easily. So while your right those models are your own, you should be courteous to your opponent. I think is the larger deal that whatever your proxying it. After all it takes two players to play a game. Well normally.

I have already established that you and I wouldn't be playing a game for several reasons.

 

My opponents know exactly what is in my army, I provide them my army list and make notes for them to know what units are which. If that isn't good enough, then I'm not interested in playing them anyway. I don't actually care if they think my models are good enough - I am a rather gracious opponent, and have full on allowed an opponent to completely change a unit movement because they have forgotten to reference my army list about what's in a unit/what it is equipped with. I'm much more interested in making sure we both enjoy the game, rather than being "hardcore" about anything, and that extends to my army looking the way I want it to, not GW, and not my opponent.

 

As far as the little green army men, with a few actual poxes modeled on them and with some kind of base to mark some size of the model, there probably wouldn't be anything wrong with them.

[Schlitzaf]

And I wouldn't know anyone who would have an issue. But it's an issue when "Joe the Plasma in the Tactical Squad Beta with Missle Launcher is John the Melta while Bob the Plasma in Tactical Squad Alpha with Lascannon is actually a Flamer. Also Squad Beta Missile Launcher is a Plasmacannon, while Squad Alpha Lascannon a Heavy Bolter. Tactical Squad Delta with Heavy Flamer is a Heavy Bolter too. Also these Scout Marines Beta here are actually Skitarri Dragons while those Scout Squad Omega is Scions Command with Full Plasma."

 

If something I said would cause you not to play. I am just puzzled. Everything I have said has been perhaps more bellicose but ultimately what most folks here have affirmed. That the matters and means of proxy do not matter but intention of why you are proxying does. Furthermore if you play at an LGS you should support the LGS. If you find that at all distasteful I am puzzled and confused.

[Olis]

People have asked what little green army men I was referring to in the OP. I apologize for my American belief that these toys from our chlldhood were a worldwide toy. This is what I am talking about:

 

 

Just so you know, brother, I had those as a small kid. So, they're a UK thing too, afaik. ;)

[Bulwyf]

 

People have asked what little green army men I was referring to in the OP. I apologize for my American belief that these toys from our chlldhood were a worldwide toy. This is what I am talking about:

 

 

Just so you know, brother, I had those as a small kid. So, they're a UK thing too, afaik.

 

 

Same here brother! I had the different colors for different nations in WW2 to boot.

[the jeske]

 

 

I really hate having the argument with some of the newer players about how expensive the models are and how they feel that they should be cheaper. While i do not disagree, a lot of younger players seem to have this attitude that it is okay to circumvent GW/FW and either buy from third part exclusively or from Forgeryworld (Chinacast).

 

That is because unlike lets say 10 or 15 years ago, we do have multiple other systems where armies don't cost even 1/2 what an avarge w40k army does. And while vets add vaule to GW models, based on their history with the game, new players do not. And when they see that one system gives as single army for a 700-800$, and another gives half the model collection of the game for that, they weight the worth of models different.  And if they do pick w40k, they do not feel that recasting is a bad thing, because to new players , the armies are not just overcosted[they are overcosted for vets], but prized crazy as far as entry point goes.

[Dragonlover]

A question for those of you that don't play against proxies: I run my 16 Berserkers with chainaxe and chainsword. I own precisely 1 guy equipped in this fashion, because I built them nearly twenty years ago. I also have no intention of buying more Berserkers until a new kit drops for what should be obvious reasons.

 

Would you play against my army?

 

Dragonlover

[Ishagu]

A question for those of you that don't play against proxies: I run my 16 Berserkers with chainaxe and chainsword. I own precisely 1 guy equipped in this fashion, because I built them nearly twenty years ago. I also have no intention of buying more Berserkers until a new kit drops for what should be obvious reasons.

 

Would you play against my army?

 

Dragonlover

 

You mean you've had 20 years to update your models? 

 

I think it's about time you did!

[Damo1701]

Meh.

 

To be fair, waiting 20 years for a new kit is beyond even GW' s usual level of incompetence.

 

As long as you play then by the right rules. Go for it!

[Brother Captain Sirus]

A question for those of you that don't play against proxies: I run my 16 Berserkers with chainaxe and chainsword. I own precisely 1 guy equipped in this fashion, because I built them nearly twenty years ago. I also have no intention of buying more Berserkers until a new kit drops for what should be obvious reasons.

Would you play against my army?

Dragonlover

If you told me during set up that this entire squad is armed in this way, that would be ok for these reasons:

- the entire squad is the same, easy to follow

- your models are fully built and painted

 

Where i draw the line is when there are so many proxies spread out across the army that its too easy to loose track or impossible to follow to begin with.

[Ishagu]

On the berzerker issue, why not get some cool MkIII models from GW and the World Eaters upgrade kit from FW and make some amazing looking berzerkers?

 

You've proxied for a long time, I'd just say no. We're talking about a few Marines here - not a large financial commitment, and they certainly won't take long to paint.

[Dragonlover]

1: Chainaxe + chainsword only became a legal option about two months ago, so no I haven't had twenty years to update my models.

 

2: We play with a 'the list is what counts' mentality, precisely to cover the fact that a lot of us have collections spanning twenty odd years and can't be bothered to rip the arms off guys/buy more of the same models just because the rules changed.

 

3: That you think I should update them is utterly irrelevant. I've been using them for nearly twenty years, they aren't going anywhere. Not to mention that you can only get about six of the combination I want out of a Berserker box. Even with my very reasonable discount that's fifty quid for a bunch of models I don't want to build.

 

Ultimately, you are not the arbiter of my hobby, or indeed anyone's hobby other than your own. Please do not condescend me in future on how I choose to play with my plastic soldiers.

 

Dragonlover

 

EDIT: They're not painted yet, due to the lack of an ETL this year. I'm sure you all understand ;)

[Ishagu]

I can'tell you to do anything, that's totally right.

 

I can refuse to play against you, which I certainly would. My armies are fully painted, every model is equipped exactly as modelled. I expect the same in return from my opponent.

[MoK]

I have no problem with unpainted models, most of my armies are in various states of painting. I also have no problem with people blue tacking weapons on to enable them to see if they like them. What I want to see is the actual weapons you say on on them, so that I can assess my tactics. But then I am very much a WYSIWYG player. If some one came with a cardboard cut out on the correct size cardboard base, I would accept that for that game, but I wouldn't play it again, because that just proves that they are lazy. Some proxies are fine, a land raider proxying a different land raider, fine, the same with predators, Rhinos etc. I also don't mind people using Juggernaught models for Chaos Bikers, as long they tell me before hand. But I don't like the "this lascannon is in fact a plasma cannon" thing. I've got a crap memory and would forget. I buy all my models either off eBay or from other players, that saves massive amount of money. If it's a new kit ad I need it now I will get it from a store that sells discounted GW models. If they don't have what I need I will buy from GW.

[Chaplain Killmer]

@ Dragonlover: I don't know your gaming group, but if I walk into the GW store in Munich I have the feeling that many players playing there are younger than big parts of my army. So i get challenged every now and then if that early 90s metal dread is really a GW miniature. I take my time and walk my opponents through my army and I got never rejected by an opponent.

 

 

I can understand many the points to the damages to the game store affecting their options to play the game at all. But basically I can't care less. I play my army which i try to make as nice and detailed as i can. If my opponent turns up with some colored stones for their army i would not care as long as he / she seem fun to play. I leave the business part of the game to the shop / club owners - thats their business.

[CrimsonReign]

I pretty much always play against friends, and we commonly proxy equipment - last week i was trying out a predator as a hellforged predator (only found out it was an option recently)

I also have 3 of the dark vengeance hellbrutes, which didn't have weapon options - I always equip them all with the same gear to avoid confusion but ill be damned if its always multimeltas (even though it normally is) 

 

however, when i play at the store vs people i havent known for years, my DE army is fully wysiwg, as is my daemons one - purely because they're newer and i knew more about the game while making them 

 

we all make an effort to move towards wysiwg, but it's not always possible

[Dantay VI]

People have asked what little green army men I was referring to in the OP. I apologize for my American belief that these toys from our chlldhood were a worldwide toy. This is what I am talking about:

 

 

Apparently I missed him having a bit of a row with some true grognards today at the FLGS. He brought his bag of army men and his partly assembled plague marines looking for games. His attitude of before was in full swing. He did find one game until he talked about how he was never going to spend money at the store...and didn't know he was playing the store owner. That went over about as well as a heretic confessing to an Inquisitor that he didn't really think the Emperor was a god.

 

He was told the store policy that while they don't directly charge for tables it is expected that you, the gamer, at some point do purchase something from the store to enable the store to host tables and events. The guy laughed at that and said unless he was told directly to buy something he would continue using his little green men. He was asked not to return back unless his attitude changes.

It is funny how our hobby has that unspoken understanding of supporting the store to enable free gaming tables and it remains unspoken until something like that happens.

 

I can't say I will miss the experience of playing against little green army men. I don't want to sound like an elitist but my playing time is limited and frankly I'd rather play ppl that care enough to at least try and field decent armies. If that guy was willing to actually try then I would have taken him under my wing, same as my local gamers. There are several new gamers we've introduced to the hobby. Wish this guy would have been one of them but...well, just like Papa Nurgle says you can't save 'em all.

 

 

I still have my  toy soldiers, and now my son plays with them.

 

I was going to ask if the guy's attitude kicked off before or after he was told that folks would not play him? I have seen a few folks go off the deep end due to a perceived insult.

Could the attitude problem have been mitigated a little by a different approach?

 

However the post quoted above seems to suggest he just had an attitude problem full stop, although he did go out and get himself some plague marines to go with the green army men......

 

If the attitude was not provoked, no I would not play him as it would probably be an unenjoyable encounter, however if he felt he had been wronged  by the grognards, I would take the time to play him and maybe get some hobby chat going to see if  the attitude was real or a front, maybe get them to talk about models they might want.

[Ishagu]

If he doesn't have the models to run a big army play smaller games until you do. It's not really an excuse

[Bryan Blaire]

If he doesn't have the models to run a big army play smaller games until you do. It's not really an excuse

Be careful Ishagu, your arrogance and elitist attitude are showing. You aren't the arbiter of how anyone else gets to play the game.

[Montford]

If all his pox walkers are green army men, and that's the only thing he's using green army as, then I'd have no issues whatsoever.

[Slave to Darkness]

If he doesn't have the models to run a big army play smaller games until you do. It's not really an excuse

Whilst I disagree with some of what you have said here I do agree with this. 

[gideon stargreave]

This is why I avoid pick up games.

as an aside. Every single model in my army is converted to be a mighty hero, so there are axes and swords and spears and shields and banners and so on all over the place. Lots of them are based on box and codex cover artwork. For me to use my army, a lot of counts as has to take place.
"all of these are tactical marines. The guy with the banner is the sergeant"
"all the sergeants have power fists and bolt pistols." 
" None of these special weapons are actually special weapons"
"The army has taken the black, sacrifice through rage, everything is death company"

 

Would you rather play my painstakingly converted army, or unpainted WYSIWYG?

Would you play the Iron Sleet Rout? Even if every time they had to use different rules for the same models?

 

 

Link to an old thread here if you want to know what I mean in general

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325952-unification/

[Adeptus]

Re: the Berserkers. What are they armed with? Why do you want to run them with something else?

[Blindhamster]

its a funny old hobby!

I prefer WYSIWYG - i've been in the hobby for 21 years, I have models that are old (none as old as ive been in the hobby as i totally restarted my army about 8 years ago).

I don't mind a bit of proxying, especially from people that are wanting to try stuff, or can't afford stuff. So long as it's clear. If an entire army is proxied? nah i'd probably not bother, because frankly it becomes hard work for me to keep track of things, which honestly isn't fair or fun.

A unit of berzerkers all armed with chainswords and chainaxes instead of their modelled chainswords and bolt pistols? sure, its a single unit, all equipped the same way. 4 units of berzerkers, all modelled with bolt pistols and chainswords but each unit armed and equipped differently? see that gets harder to track and more irritating.

A new guy using green army men for a few games to try out a unit before he buys models (3rd party is fine) and does something actually remotely appropriate? Yeah sure, same guy doesnt intend to get anything remotely like the unit its meant to be? nah, why bother, I want to have fun too, And a huge part of the hobby for me is how models look, less the painting side, though I do love seeing well painted armies, but I love seeing nicely built and/or converted minis.

It's not elitist, its purely a case of what I will also get enjoyment out of, I love to take photos of games I play, i'd not have much interest in photos of little green army men (but as i said, would be fine with it, at least for a few games whilst the player is trying them out).

However, Ishagu actually does raise a valid point. Don't have the models for big games? thats fine, lets play a smaller one! I'm more likely to have a painted army in a smaller game rather than a base coated and block coloured army.