Would you find this acceptable at your gaming group/table?

[Arkangilos]

Yes, because you purchase the two separately.

[Schlitzaf]

But is the intention not to use your models of green army men in place of the models that had endless manpower and sculpting done in addition to the manpower of making the rules behind them. You are stealing. You are taking something from a company (Games Workshop), and the community they created or provided (Warhammer 40K, at your LGS or a Games Workshop) without providing something in return for the gaming space.

[Bryan Blaire]

But is the intention not to use your models of green army men in place of the models that had endless manpower and sculpting done in addition to the manpower of making the rules behind them. You are stealing. You are taking something from a company (Games Workshop), and the community they created or provided (Warhammer 40K, at your LGS or a Games Workshop) without providing something in return for the gaming space.

Well, one, it isn't endless manpower, there's a very defined amount of manpower used, which GW compensates its employees for. GW in turn sells those models. The proceeds from said sales presumably are used to fund additional model creation and recoup costs for making original models. If GW is running their business in something other than this very standard business sensical fashion, then they have far, far more to worry about than whether people are playing their purchased rules with models they don't produce.

 

If you don't buy those models, GW has literally lost nothing from you for their model line.

 

You may still buy other things of value to GW or the FLGS instead that compensate them for what you did use.

 

There is no theft involved.

[Bulwyf]

 

I was giving the guy a break until he told us that has no intentions of buying models from the FLGS and that GW charges so much for models he was going to keep using little green army men. I offered to help him assemble and paint whatever models he wanted to try and bring but he wants to stick with little green army men.

 

I am not by any stretch a WYSIWYG or power player. I do think it is not unfair to expect people you play with to at least try to support the hobby and the FLGS that makes community gaming possible. We have a great local scene at my store. I know he'll get games from some people. His attitude really put people off when he was snidely asking people how much money they wasted on their models when little green army men worked just as well.

 

I appreciate where he is coming from...but there's no need for that kind of behavior. I just found it so blatant that I had to ask for opinions. I've seen guys use various things as "stand in" models but nothing like that.

And that's really of him. That attitude is also unneeded in the hobby. That is also worthy of not playing, because he is disrespecting others' personal investment. If he doesn't want to invest anything, that's his call, but he also doesn't need to put others down for their interest.

 

Supporting the FLGS is always king - even if you are just buying materials there every now and then, books, paints and glue, snacks, etc., that's all fine. As soon as you won't support stuff, things dry up, and it really stinks to live in an area that is a 40K desert.

 

I think his point is in this case do you think it is fair for someone to use a company's rules but not use their models for the same game.

Why wouldn't it be fair, if you bought the rules?

 

 

I agree with everything you said until that last part. To answer your question, how can anyone expect the company that made the rules or the local stores that sell the rules and those models to stay in business if everyone decided that little green army men should be used instead of the company's models? I realize that is drifting into hyperbole but I think it is a valid question.

[Arkangilos]

But is the intention not to use your models of green army men in place of the models that had endless manpower and sculpting done in addition to the manpower of making the rules behind them. You are stealing. You are taking something from a company (Games Workshop), and the community they created or provided (Warhammer 40K, at your LGS or a Games Workshop) without providing something in return for the gaming space.

No I'm not stealing, I'm supporting two different companies. One: Games Workshop by buying the rules, Two: an alternate Company of which I'm using their models.

 

Stealing would be taking what is theirs without paying for it, which I am not.

[Bryan Blaire]

I agree with everything you said until that last part. To answer your question, how can anyone expect the company that made the rules or the local stores that sell the rules and those models to stay in business if everyone decided that little green army men should be used instead of the company's models? I realize that is drifting into hyperbole but I think it is a valid question.

I would expect them to stay in business by doing what any good business does - adapting their business model to sell what people are buying from them.

 

If every single person stopped buying GW models tomorrow (not going to happen), then GW as a company has the responsibility to adapt - they would need to invest more in their rule creation and off-load their now defunct model making materials.

 

I am not responsible for a company that can't adapt to what people want to buy. Companies that want to stay in business find a way to stay in business.

 

Heck, in this situation, if everyone decided that they were going to play 40K with little green army men, a good FLGS would observe and read the writing on the wall, and stop ordering models from GW, but start placing orders for little green army men from their distributor and then sell those army men for all they are worth. GW keeps getting money for rules, the FLGS should make profit still, and everyone playing is playing how they want.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Let's not be intellectually dishonest here. Lazy proxies and unattractive, unpainted armies are just that: lazy and unattractive. It's just that most people are probably too polite to flat out refuse someone for such a petty reason, or even that they can't, seeing as their own army isn't fully painted.

 

But I'm not going to prance around saying it's completely fine and acceptable. I'll allow it, I may even pretend like it doesn't bother me, but the game's not going to be anywhere near as good looking as it could have been. And for some people, that's fine, they're in it for the gameplay and not the spectacle or the hobby. I don't see a reason to discriminate about it. I may have my own standards and refuse to play with my models until they're fully painted, but I'm not going to force my own standards on another person.

[Arkangilos]

Completely agree, Tyberos. That's why the intent is important as well.

 

My point is that I have no moral qualms with people using green army men if they are doing it for demo purposes or as a hold over until their army is complete.

[Frater Cornelius]

Wow, honestly? Nothing against those people, as I do not know them, but this reeks of elitism. Some people do not have money to buy stuff, some want to test certain models and loadout and some are simply slow builders. Whatever the reason for this unfinished army, such a reaction is never justified. Even if there was pure laziness behind it, how is laughing at it make you a better person in this situation? If it was inappropriate in their eyes, they should've kept it constructive and get off their 'I have been playing since 2ed' high horse...

[Yodhrin]

So it's okay to pirate a video game instead of downloading to demo just to see if you like it?

 

Plenty of people would argue yes, but again, a total non sequitur. GW sells rules, those are a product. GW also sells models, those are also a product. Buying the rules means you own that copy of the rules, you're not renting them, you're not purchasing a license, they are a physical product which is yours to do with what you please providing you don't break any laws. If you want to buy the 8th Edition rulebook and use each sheet as toilet paper that would be entirely your right because you own it. Since you own it, you can choose to use it with GW models, or third party models, or paper models, or army men, or bloody tiddly-winks if you like.

 

I mean, flip your logic around to see just how absurd it is - if you buy GW models, you must, by your reckoning, use GW rules to play with them. Anything else would be "stealing".

 

LOL, what nonsense.

[Sawtooth]

Honestly I'd find it pretty funny, but acceptable. It's a new player and horde armies aren't easy. As long as the player is making a good faith effort at assembling the actual force in question, or he's trying to get a feel for the faction before committing to it. I've always had the good fortune to play with some pretty nice folks. Years ago I remember a new player interested in Tyranids, but unsure if he wanted a swarm or Nidzilla list or something in between. We didn't have enough models for the extremes so we set him up with coke cans and such. Eventually he really got into the Nidzilla style, but for a little while we just said bring coke cans while you're working on the models. Every time he got a new monster assembled everyone gave him a cheer.

[Adeptus]

 

Just playing devils advocate - some people play for the immersion and this would ruin it for them.

As I've said before, all the immersion has to happen in your mind anyway. The models don't move on their own or anything else. You aren't playing a movie on the tabletop. It isn't that much of a stretch to overlay Poxwalkers in your mind on little green army men any more than it is to imagine the clanking of a tank or the whine of power armor servos.

 

Immersion arguments don't even apply, because most people can't even paint their minis to the level of artistry depicted in the arms and armor of the denizens of 40K per the art work in the books, so you have to already be applying some imagination. Saying you can't take it any farther can't possibly be true.

 

 

Similarly, if you've ever climbed a flight of stairs then clearly you can climb Everest. You've already used your body to climb something, saying you can't take it any further can't possibly be true.

 

[Scribe]

Lol this thread delivering, fast.

 

It's not THEFT by ANY stretch. I ran if I used a FW model that was WYSIWYG, is that theft it isn't the REAL GW model?

 

Lol, best line of logic I have seen in years, no joke.

[CaptainMarsh]

I'd find it pretty funny and be totally okay with it. Green army men, eh? Green because of illness, I say! Because they walk...walk with the pox!

Of course I would eventually expect him to invest in getting actual models, but it'd take a while before I'd get pissy.

This is assuming he is consistent. The proxy armies I hate are where everything is a proxy and nothing is consistent or easy to tell where or what something easy. One player at my store proxies a guard army and I have no idea what the hell I am seeing even after he tells me what is what.

[Corswain]

I was giving the guy a break until he told us that has no intentions of buying models from the FLGS and that GW charges so much for models he was going to keep using little green army men. I offered to help him assemble and paint whatever models he wanted to try and bring but he wants to stick with little green army men.

Aaaaannnd.... there's the line. I think you were fair.

 

Unwillingness is a completely different story to inability. If the guy has no intention of buying "just cos", I'd probably say no too.

[MoK]

Unpainted or part painted models, I have no problem with, most of my armies are only part done. Proxies? I.e. Green army men. No. Not unless he had talked to me before hand and had proxy models that accurately represent the unit they are supposed to represent. I would, however, be amused.

[Dragonlover]

Yeah, I was with the guy until his decision to not support the LGS. That's not cricket.

 

Dragonlover

[ONDIG]

One of the things that I've always found irksome is 40k meme"MORE DISPOSABLE INCOME THAN YOU SINCE 1984".Hilarious.Thats why I sometimes refer to 40k as a "Snobby".All this about proper models etc. when in the games earliest manifestations the games CREATORS give fellow enthusiasts directions on how to make speeders out of used deodorant tubes!As far as stealing GW probably spent mere pennies on that sweet Forgeworld upgrade set you just bought for 25gbp...a model that is based most likely on villains/characters from a,handful of 80s movies but they continually insist these are their "original" IP!I agree that we should support our FLGS but let's not kid ourselves about how much GW loves u$.At the end of the day they have said it themselves they are a toy company in the business of selling collectible lil dolls.

The feller w/the army men I'd play him.I mean be honest most of us started out playing GI Joe in the sandbox and isn't that at it's heart what we are still doing?PEW,PEW!Granted the guy smack talking about how much he didn't $pend make him kind of a....jerk.But honestly I myself have been attempting to put together a Guard army consisting of Dreamforge and Raging Heroes models and while it's personally not such a big deal but the simple fact that I know full well most places won't allow,such heresy in tournaments.(Elitism?) As to stealing I bought the rules I will play (as everyone does) them how I see fit.Everyone houserules.Sometimes unintentionally.As D3L said earlier wether it's colored rocks,poker chips or checkers ultimately it is all abstraction.Bring on your Mt.Dew droppods I'll play you bro.Because like everyone else I'm in it for the love of the game!

[D3L]

Proxy away I say, let's not pretend you've never done it, some of these younglings are the 8 year olds we used to be, they'll keep the game alive, crikey I could barely field a 'legit' 1000pts in 2nd edition, I remember proxying Monster in My Pocket monsters as a daemon army all the time  

baring store rules (which are only usually present in official stores, and we don't have to pretend it's fun to play there) Consistency is the key, you just have to be able to show what you are playing with to your opponent

 

[totgeboren]

I have always felt there are better rule sets out there, there are cheaper manufacturers, in short, there are many other games well suited for those who do not want to spend a lot of time, money and/or effort into their models.

The thing that separates 40k from many other games (in my view) is the way the tabletop looks during a game, and that is mainly what inspires me.

I don't mind 3ed party models or scratch-built, home-made stuff (things like that can be awesome!), as long as it looks good it's no problem. I have a few own sculpts in my force, that's not the issue.

I don't even have time to play once a month, and I would not spend that time against green army men. I would in that case rather do something else, like go get a beer and talk nerd stuff, or play a different game (x-wing is pretty great for newbs!). The one thing 40k has got going for it is the aesthetics.

 

To me this situation is like... hmmm... lets say you ask your friend to go skiing downhill with you.

Your friend shows up at the top of the slope, and there you stand with a kids sleigh. Sure, you can both go down the slope at the same time, but you can't actually go skiing together (since you don't even own any skis).

 

Showing up with green army men to a 40k game means you are showing up to a 40k game when you don't have an army. It's rather odd to even ask someone for a game in that case.

 

But if someone else with a bit more time and less elitist attitude would fancy a game against him, hats off to you.

[Closet Skeleton]

Anyone has a right not to play someone. At a tournament and event you're kind of obligated to but even then you have a right to drop out if you're having a terrible time.

 

Social interactions are complicated. If a person feels disrespected because someone else isn't putting in the effort that they have then that's their prerogative. You can't make a broad judgement about an individual's experience of fun.

 

So it's okay to pirate a video game instead of downloading to demo just to see if you like it?

 

Technically its illegal to do so but If I have to pirate a £30+ game because there's no demo and no practical refund policy then that's the publisher's fault. If a publisher is so bad at marketing that pirates are buying their products after stealing them first then the pirates are doing the publisher a favour.

 

Similarly I have models I'd never have bought if I hadn't been inspired to want to paint them buy books I legally stole because I only have PDFs of them. GW both gained and lost money but no corporation has a 'right' to the most profit they could possibly make.

 

Ethics and legality are not the same. Or on topic.

 

Video games are a terrible analogy because the software is one product. Rules and models are two different product lines. The vast majority of published table top wargames don't have official models. Wizards of the Coast have made D&D miniatures but I played D&D with a mixture of Reaper and Citadel models, was I stealing from WotC, Reaper and GW all at once then?

[the jeske]

I think people need to ask themselves "Why" they would be opposed to something like that... if you are being elitist because "I spent all my money on GW stuff, everyone should have to also" - I personally wouldn't want to play you. If it is simply that they don't look like zombies, would you be okay if the person brought zombie models from any game line, as long as they were on "appropriate" bases? If the army men simply aren't depicting zombification, would you instead play said person and then comment that you could show the person how to make some hobby modifications?

Unless someone has a really good grasp on testing or has a group that does it for him, it is may be hard for someone to judge the efficiency of models without playing, and not many people want to buy 6 boxs at GW price to find out that the stuff does not work. Showing someone how to model/paint, won't help the person much, if he wants to only check if the stuff works. I would rather play against a 100 dudes with armies made out of colored stones, then see one dude spend 700$ on an army and find out post factum, that the army sucks.

 

But in the end it comes down to social stuff. Someone known at the stores, high in the social structure of local community plops down a few basis and asks for testing pre important tournament? There is going to be people who want to play. New guy comes in asks for a "normal" game? people won't be willing to waste time on him. Sad, but true.

[Reyner]

Just get him to get some of ye olde Zombies? The original GW Poxwalkers! Can probably find them cheaper from 3rd party stores but yeah int grand scheme of things £20 for 20 zombies isn't bad and they come with circle bases now because of AoS?

[Ciler]

The only somewhat similar experience I've had in my gaming circle was a regular player who had decided to pick up some space wolves as a new army (with the start collecting set) as part of an event thing.

 

He turned up for the first round with the models unpainted, but also only half way assembled : the bodies were glued but all the models' weapons were blue tacked because he was still pondering the best loadout. That got a few eyebrows raised, but no more.

 

When he turned up for the second round two weeks later, he got some complains, because the weapons would fall of regularly when a model was moved and delay the games.

 

On the third round, where most people had their armies at least basecoated (and for some altogether painted), he was simply told to go home and fix his models. 

 

But that was a regular player, after a month.

[sockwithaticket]

I was giving the guy a break until he told us that has no intentions of buying models from the FLGS and that GW charges so much for models he was going to keep using little green army men. I offered to help him assemble and paint whatever models he wanted to try and bring but he wants to stick with little green army men.

 

I am not by any stretch a WYSIWYG or power player. I do think it is not unfair to expect people you play with to at least try to support the hobby and the FLGS that makes community gaming possible. We have a great local scene at my store. I know he'll get games from some people. His attitude really put people off when he was snidely asking people how much money they wasted on their models when little green army men worked just as well.

 

I appreciate where he is coming from...but there's no need for that kind of behavior.  I just found it so blatant that I had to ask for opinions. I've seen guys use various things as "stand in" models but nothing like that.

I've bolded the important bits that could probably go in the OP to make the situation a bit clearer and might have avoided a few of the more tangential posts here.

 

I've no issue with him using green army men, but he has to make some kind of effort to pox-walker them up at some stage. Until then they're proxies and while it's absolutely valid to use something in that manner for a spell, there is a time limit. If something becomes a fixture in your army you've got to do something to make it WYSIWYG. Beer can/soda can drop pods are a classic. Few people can stomach buying and painting multiple drop pods in one go, especially if they're still feeling out whether they need/want them, so proxying them for a little bit is fine. If you use them regularly you'd best either buy a drop pod or find another way to represent it that isn't just a can.

 

Sneering at others for not taking the same option as him is a  move.

 

Supporting the FLGS if you intend to make use of the space for gaming is paramount, expressing intent not to do so is a massive   move.

 

 

As an aside I am sitting here giggling at the notion that if you use GW rules you HAVE to use GW models.