Would you find this acceptable at your gaming group/table?

[Dragonlover]

You buy things once in a while, that's cool. Not everyone has loads of disposable income. You don't ever buy anything... yeah, not so cool, but hey there's always the chance something'll catch your eye. You don't buy anything and you tell me you have no intention of buying anything ever? Yeah, get stuffed. I don't have time to waste on you, and you'll get the bare minimum of my attention and courtesy.

 

I should point out that as a player, I'd happily play against the green army men poxwalkers, especially while they're only available in a couple of very specific places.

 

Dragonlover

[MoK]

If it was green army men representing Imperial Guard. Maybe. But Weapons need to be obvious otherwise it confuses the opponent and that spoils their fun of the game.

[Brother Clavero]

 All of the guys in my group have played for years. For us, its common practice to use proxies for units or even entire armies to see how they work and if its something that you would want to spend time and money on. Actually, my last two games has seen me using chaos space marine minis to represent a loyal marine army. It helped me to decide just what units would work for me and my play style without investing in minis that I would otherwise never use again.

 

 I believe in helping new players. If he wanted to use green army men then so be it, however; I would expect him to work towards a proper army. 

[Ishagu]

To answer the original topic question.

 

100% not ok, I would refuse the game and I would go further and petition to get the "player" thrown out.

 

40k games are a social contract - the army and the way it looks is as much for your opponent as it is for yourself.

 

Proxies are not ok, un-assembled models are not ok. A player not making an effort is not ok either.

[The Wolfguard]

For me part of the hobby is 'visualising' these epic grand war scenes from the grim dark 40k. Having painted and done up models helps me do so. I think as long as they are models from the GW line or similar in theme then I wouldn't mind so much. The little green army men would kind of ruin the 'immersion' for me as I imagine the battle going on. As such I wouldn't refuse to play with him but I would probably be very reluctant to play with that person again. If they are new I'd probably discuss how he should speak to his opponent about what he has brought too next time before the game.

 

Ishagu - Proxies for you that aren't OK, how far does that go? If I used my predator with plasma as a count as for a regular pred with lascannons etc would that be alright as long as it's clear with the opponent? Or are we more along the lines of saying that a shoebox can't be used as a land raider. 

 

Admittedly I'd be more lenient with new players and I'm always trying to promote the hobby as best I can. I feel if you're too harsh you could scare him off of a hobby that is, in fairness, pretty hard to get into in the first place..

 

 

Edit: I know there are a few people that are against this but I don't agree with the pox walkers being hard to get thing. If I was running a nurgle army and wanted pox walkers so bad I wasn't going to wait well you can pick up a box of 10 for £8 on ebay.. That's cheaper then any squad you'll get. Personally  due to the visualisation as I've mentioned I'd run them squads in my own army because even if they look similar to each other they still look very good and like a proper shambling horde all done up! 

[Olis]

100% not ok, I would refuse the game and I would go further and petition to get the "player" thrown out.

 

Thrown out? That's a bit harsh, isn't it? The guy was a newbie. Now, plastic green men as proxies is a stretch for me, I'll admit, as is an army of incomplete models, but I wouldn't try to get him booted. I'd help him by advising him what etiquette is expected of him. 

[deathspectersgt7]

what me and some of the people I game with always had painted armies and never played with proxies . But we would also help someone out with painting up their army if they wanted help. And would not turn someone down a friendly game .

[Ishagu]

To your Predator question, I would perhaps allow that but I wouldn't be happy about it at all. You'd need a pretty good excuse for that.

 

Those kinds of proxies are always about chosing an option that is perhaps superior to what you've modelled. It's like me saying my Grav guns are now plasmas because Grav isn't as good as it was last edition.

 

 

 

100% not ok, I would refuse the game and I would go further and petition to get the "player" thrown out.

Thrown out? That's a bit harsh, isn't it? The guy was a newbie. Now, plastic green men as proxies is a stretch for me, I'll admit, as is an army of incomplete models, but I wouldn't try to get him booted. I'd help him by advising him what etiquette is expected of him.

I think it's disrespectful to an opponent, absolutely.

There are no examples that would make anyone assume it's ok to do that.

 

It's like me using a cut out of a model in a game. Not acceptable

[Olis]

 

 

100% not ok, I would refuse the game and I would go further and petition to get the "player" thrown out.

Thrown out? That's a bit harsh, isn't it? The guy was a newbie. Now, plastic green men as proxies is a stretch for me, I'll admit, as is an army of incomplete models, but I wouldn't try to get him booted. I'd help him by advising him what etiquette is expected of him.

I think it's disrespectful to an opponent, absolutely.

There are no examples that would make anyone assume it's ok to do that.

 

It's like me using a cut out of a model in a game. Not acceptable

 

You mean like the Ork Dreadnought cut-out that came with the second edition boxed set? ^_^

 

Nah, I get it. It's entirely out of the question for you. I respectfully disagree with that position.

[The Wolfguard]

Honestly Ishagu I've been starting to understand what you're saying about proxies since coming back last edition. My brother had about 4.5k+ of ultramarines and I always used to have smaller armies. So when I played against him each squad would have some kind of count as for when he wanted to counter my new army with this, that and the other, but he didn't have the models for it. So I brought in a rule in our group where we would try to play what we've got in our armies. 

 

Although you've now made me question whether I should use them power swords on my Dark Imperium sergeants when they don't have them lol. (In fairness I bought a box of intercessors thinking there would be a power sword in there since they have the option, no such luck).

 

 

To the topic on hand he has alternative and relatively cheap ways to get the models. I think you can forgive this kind of mistake once for sure but you'd have to give him chance to rectify it, although again as people have said, only if he's new. Although I do think that's a bit of an odd move in an actual Games Workshop? Considering the news about one banning FW models recently I'm surprised one allowed this ;)

[Guest Triszin]

I'd play against it, unless it was a person known to be a troublesome individual.

[sockwithaticket]

Proxies are not ok,

I do not get this at all. Are you saying people should buy, build and paint a unit before finding out it doesn't work with their play-style/army?

 

I should probably clarify that my understanding of proxy is a stand in for something you're thinking of adding to your army and I think it's perfectly legitimate for people not to want to splash the cash until getting a feel for how said unit/model works on the tabletop. So long as a proxying of the same unit/model is limited to a small number of games (either it works/you like it or it doesn't/you don't) I can't fathom a problem.

[Steel Company]

Honestly, not one little bit.

 

In nearly 25 years of playing 40k, only one thing has ever bothered me at the table. When some mouth breather walked in like he was a Primarch and we should all honour the ground he walked on, came up to the game I was playing and moved the models of the guy I was playing against during his shooting phase, telling him "here I put your Predator in a better shooting position."

 

Beyond stuff like that, I honestly don't care.

[Arganias]

I was sympathetic until he seemed bent on deliberately not supporting the hobby or the store he was playing in. I know I am guilty of hunting for some eBay deals, but I also buy all my hobby supplies and books from my local store, not to mention other non-40k materials. If I have the money i will always default to my game store.

 

I really hate having the argument with some of the newer players about how expensive the models are and how they feel that they should be cheaper. While i do not disagree, a lot of younger players seem to have this attitude that it is okay to circumvent GW/FW and either buy from third part exclusively or from Forgeryworld (Chinacast).

 

I would have not been upset with green army men if he was just starting out, but his contemptuous attitude to people who bought the models from GW and the hobby store he was playing in would have put him on my don't play list.

[Olis]

To answer the original topic question. 

 

*snip*

 

Just to make an addendum to my previous post - I didn't see Bulwyf's second post in the thread, prior to my response to you (this is my own failing and I acknowledge it - maybe I should have kept up with the whole thread...). Though I would still at least make an attempt to bring him in from the cold, continued douchebaggery would get short shrift from me. No-one needs to be a condescending dick (the dude, not you Ish).

[Ishagu]

The thing is, in my long - and I mean LONG - hobbying experience and history, those same players who proxy or use different models as different units are not doing it to play whilst they amass an actual army. They never get the real models they are proxying. Eventually they just move on and proxy something else.

 

Sockwithaticket -

 

I don't quite understand the "try the unit on the tabletop before you buy/paint it" mind set.

 

Are you saying you only buy models based on their performance? If so we're not really playing a friendly game in which case I'm not allowing a proxy.

 

Are you instead saying you don't know if the model is good or not? Do you have an understanding of the rules? I can take a glance at a datasheet and it's points and know if something is worthwhile or not, I don't need to test it out. Experience is what's needed here.

 

I know I sound like I've got a stick in my butt, but over the last 20 years in this hobby I've seen it all, and the same things repeat.

[Ishagu]

 

 

To answer the original topic question.

 

*snip*

Just to make an addendum to my previous post - I didn't see Bulwyf's second post in the thread, prior to my response to you (this is my own failing and I acknowledge it - maybe I should have kept up with the whole thread...). Though I would still at least make an attempt to bring him in from the cold, continued douchebaggery would get short shrift from me. No-one needs to be a condescending dick (the dude, not you Ish).

Hah, I've only just read that too, since you pointed it out.

 

Seems my attitude is vindicated once again! :-P

[sockwithaticket]

The thing is, in my long - and I mean LONG - hobbying experience and history, those same players who proxy or use different models as different units are not doing it to play whilst they amass an actual army. They never get the real models they are proxying. Eventually they just move on and proxy something else.

 

Sockwithaticket -

 

I don't quite understand the "try the unit on the tabletop before you buy/paint it" mind set.

 

Are you saying you only buy models based on their performance? If so we're not really playing a friendly game in which case I'm not allowing a proxy.

 

Are you instead saying you don't know if the model is good or not? Do you have an understanding of the rules? I can take a glance at a datasheet and it's points and know if something is worthwhile or not. I don't need to test it out. Experience is what's needed here.

I'm a modeller/painter, so it's not really an issue for me. However, I do understand that those on a limited budget or concerned with value, while they want to play with stuff they like, also want to play with stuff that's reasonably effective and while certain units may look good on paper, it might be something they personally just can't really get the hang or work into their force.  And of course not everyone has as much experience as someone like yourself who can make a judgement just by looking at the datasheet.

 

What if you're trying a new play style like going from mech to drop pods or flyer heavy? You expect someone to buy, build and paint 5 - 6 drop pods or a couple of Storm Ravens only for them to find out it's not actually a play style they like?

[Ishagu]

I'm a modeller/painter, so it's not really an issue for me. However, I do understand that those on a limited budget or concerned with value, while they want to play with stuff they like, also want to play with stuff that's reasonably effective and while certain units may look good on paper, it might be something they personally just can't really get the hang or work into their force. And of course not everyone has as much experience as someone like yourself who can make a judgement just by looking at the datasheet.

 

What if you're trying a new play style like going from mech to drop pods or flyer heavy? You expect someone to buy, build and paint 5 - 6 drop pods or a couple of Storm Ravens only for them to find out it's not actually a play style they like?

Outside of a tournament, this hobby is a labour of love and patience more than anything.

 

I wouldn't expect someone to buy 6/7 drop pods outside of making a tournament list unless they'd planned out a specific force in their mind after considering the fluff and rules.

[Calyptra]

I don't think I'd want to play him.

 

The state of my opponent's models directly effects my experience of the game. I will have a better experience if their stuff is painted, especially if it's painted well.

 

That said, I don't expect my opponent to have fantastically painted models. I don't expect everything to be fully painted, or necessarily even fully assembled. I dislike proxying (I won't do it myself) but I'm ok with an opponent doing it up to a point - as long as I can easily tell what everything is.

 

What matters to me is: Do they care? Did they try?

 

If not, I'd rather not bother with the game. It's not just that playing against whatever half-assed junk they're using as an army is going to make the game less fun, it's that it also devalues the work I put into mine.

 

I'm not a fast painter, and (particularly with my Eldar) I'm trying to paint to a high standard. I generally spend about 10 hours on a basic trooper. An army for me represents a massive number of work hours. Not everybody will like my results, and that's fine, but a player who just doesn't care about the hobby at all is effectively telling me that everything I put into my army doesn't matter, and that however many hundreds of hours I spent painting it was a waste of time.

 

I don't need that.

[Garreck]

Yeah, context is everything here. Rookie player trying out the game (or long time gaming buddy theprycrafting a spam list) I'll tolerate a high degree of proxy. Dude taking the piss out of people who invest in the hobby then hoping to get a game? You trollin' son.

[Doghouse]

I was giving the guy a break until he told us that has no intentions of buying models from the FLGS and that GW charges so much for models he was going to keep using little green army men. I offered to help him assemble and paint whatever models he wanted to try and bring but he wants to stick with little green army men.

 

I am not by any stretch a WYSIWYG or power player. I do think it is not unfair to expect people you play with to at least try to support the hobby and the FLGS that makes community gaming possible. We have a great local scene at my store. I know he'll get games from some people. His attitude really put people off when he was snidely asking people how much money they wasted on their models when little green army men worked just as well.

 

I appreciate where he is coming from...but there's no need for that kind of behavior.  I just found it so blatant that I had to ask for opinions. I've seen guys use various things as "stand in" models but nothing like that.

 

I'm all for helping people but it sounds like this guy might be a bit of a lost cause. If he has an attitude he'll end up with people not wanting to play with him eventually anyway and it sounds like you have done more than a lot would to work with him. Gaming clubs are social venues regardless of who is using what and anti-social behavior won't help him in the least.

 

If he was atleast interested Ebay can be a great source of miniatures if it was purely a money issue which it can understandably be for some people.

 

I think proxies are fine between friends, I'd have no problem but if they told me I'd wasted money on my army and laughed at how he never intended to try I'd probably be having a quiet word with him outside.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Firstly, to answer the OP and its addition, i honestly wouldnt have played against his army men, i would have made a smaller list to use against his actual miniatures, however with his attitude being the way it was described i wouldnt have played him at all.

 

Also as its an interesting point to discuss, i actually agree with Ishagu about proxying in most cases.

The only time i proxy any unit is against my best friend who i have played against for years, and generally its a way to talk about possible applications and uses of new units and so one, i will also add that we only do this during games at eachothers houses, when i go to have a random game where i may have never played my opponent before i will use a fully represented and painted army, mainly as it makes the games easier as i dont have to explain what everything is and my opponent wont have to ask if they are trying to choose a target because they'd forgotten which unit has what.

However i have no issue playing against an army that is still being painted as it does take alot of time and effort, i know it took me look enough.

 

Final thought: Looking back over this i sound far more elitist than i'd ever peg myself.

[Adeptus]

Like Ishagu, in my experience people making extensive use of proxies are universally doing it to take advantage of whatever the new hotness is that month. "My terminators are all grav-cents!" as an example. And that never (again, IMO) translates into the person actually buying and painting the actual models.

 

One thing that grinds my gears is people wanting to have their cake and eat it too. Like, they really like how meltaguns look, but they want to use the profile for gravguns because they're a better weapon. I'm all for people wanting to try something new for a change, but if you want to keep running gravguns in your squads then you better be getting some gravguns eventually!

 

At the end of the day the 40K rules are pretty average. They're no longer the steaming heap of trash they were in the last edition, but there's still a lot of room for improvement. So for most of us, playing 40K is a labour of love because we really enjoy the lore and imagery of the 41st Millennium. So having someone trample all over that because they want to use green army men is both confusing (why not just play a cheaper, better game if you don't care about the lore and imagery of 40K?!) and insulting to the rest of us. Every game is a contract between two players and in every game there's an implicit agreement that we both like the lore and imagery of 40K and are making an effort to get our armies to match that as best we see fit. Gag armies not withstanding of course, like my personal favourite the Blood'letters' army.

[Bryan Blaire]

I started playing this game against a card stock Ork Dread. I have since played against a Necron army that was forever Orks with a Biovore "Nightbringer." Once you do that, you can play against anything, even paper tokens.

 

My models are for me, not my opponents. Playing the game is for both my opponents and me. Acting like my models are for you is one of the attitudes I can't abide by. I don't have to match my opponent's anything - whether that's gaming skill, painting skill, modeling choices or thoughts on 40K/GW.

 

If a potential opponent doesn't want to play me, that's their call. I refuse to play people too. It is always because of their attitude, never because of their models.

 

Now, this guy's attitude is :cuss, regardless of his models. He isn't anything for his personal choice in models, but he is for denigrating anyone else's personal investments into the hobby.

 

The models are acceptable (yes, he should at least put them on appropriately sized paper circles, at the minimum), but the attitude toward other players isn't. If he had any other reason for simply using little green army men, instead of just being a :cuss to other players, that would be fine. That he wants to be a :cuss to other players and the FLGS owner, that's why I wouldn't play him.