Would you find this acceptable at your gaming group/table?

[Servant of Dante]

Yeah, limitations of proxies are a bit more important for power points, imo. Or if not limits on proxies, some kind of dialogue about what people don't enjoy seeing on the table across from them in terms of units (not how they're modeled, but what you consider "too cheesey" for the game you're playing at that time).

[DuskRaider]

To answer the original topic question.

 

100% not ok, I would refuse the game and I would go further and petition to get the "player" thrown out.

 

40k games are a social contract - the army and the way it looks is as much for your opponent as it is for yourself.

 

Proxies are not ok, un-assembled models are not ok. A player not making an effort is not ok either.

 

Is anyone else able to actually game with you?

[PhilB]

Depends how new he was to the hobby, I guess even then I'd still give him a game if he was new to the army too or as well.

40k (like most GW games) has a pretty high pay wall if you're getting into it. I can't even count the times I've tried roping in some new blood to have them bulk at the prospect once they see the cost of models on GW's website, a common response being "And even after you pay that you have to assemble and paint them too!?"

I'd never prejudice 'new blood' coming into the hobby by flat out refusing they play with anything less than fully painted GW minis.

Hell, I've played games with people using Ferrero Rocher boxes as Land Raiders or plastic wall plugs for hanging pictures as Tyranid Gaunts because they've wanted to try out something new before committing to a purchase. It's all in good fun provided it doesn't become an expectation week in week out, imo.

[Ishagu]

 

To answer the original topic question.

 

100% not ok, I would refuse the game and I would go further and petition to get the "player" thrown out.

 

40k games are a social contract - the army and the way it looks is as much for your opponent as it is for yourself.

 

Proxies are not ok, un-assembled models are not ok. A player not making an effort is not ok either.

Is anyone else able to actually game with you?

Lol I do come off as a bit prickly in some of my posts.

 

You'd love to play against me! :-P

I'm a lore focused player, my armies are fully painted and modelled correctly, and my top priority in any game is a fun experience for an opponent and myself.

[Dragonlover]

@Adeptus: Yeah, you need WYSIWYG for power point games, that's totally fair. Made that mandatory at work before 8th even dropped.

 

Dragonlover

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Interesting to see that you consider wysiwyg mandatory in power levels, obviously as a counter to armies that arent armed in the same as they are in a players list.

 

What makes this change between power levels and matched play? Is it that each piece of wargear is paid for in MP? Or is it the amounts of changes that a player can do in power levels at no cost thats the issue? Just curious.

[Reyner]

Power Level means you only pay for the squad and extra miniatures cost more power but upgrades and stuff have no power requirement (LOW POWER!). So in a matched game with points I could take a maxed out Deathwatch Killteam with ALL THE THINGS for a ridiculous amount of points but in Power Level mode I would just pay 19 power according to battlescribe. 

 

power level play = pay for X amount of minis, upgrades all free

points = the way it's been for ages pay for everything you need to

 

So WYSIWYG for power level otherwise people would just so oh this Deathwatch dude has a storm shield, combiplas, other stuff yet the mini only has a bolter and I imagine it would be pretty abusable if someone isn't keeping track of everything in their opponents army since all the upgrades don't cost anything. 

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Exactly, it really comes down to ease of play.

 

Which is nice in both power levels and matched play. I will say that in many cases its a fault on GWs part for not supplying enough options in their kits, killa kans are a good example as they only come with one of each weapon type, so for a player starting out saying buy 9 killa kans to get the 3 rokkit launchers they want is asking too much.

 

But as a player who has been collecting warhammer for years it does reach a point where you can have enough models to have a wide range of options available, and create lists that are around 90% wysiwyg if not higher in most matched play games.

[Dragonlover]

I actually did it because some of my younger players don't quite grasp the concept of sportsmanship and making it fun for the opponent yet, so I decided to nip it in the bud before it became a problem.

 

Dragonlover

[Brother Captain Sirus]

I actually agree with it 100% but i think we are looking at the same corner from different angles, as you did it to prevent abuse and encourage sportsmanship in others, where as i would play wysiwyg for clarity between myself and my opponent.

 

Definately a good call on your part, its good that you are actively aiming to keep your group healthy and happy.

[Blindhamster]

have to say, i find the idea that its okay to proxy in points but not in power levels to be quite a double standard. It's either okay or it isn't.

in both variations, the final reason for proxying is because you want something you perceive to be "good" but don't have a model for yet.

For me, i'd be fine in both, but with the same caveat that i'd not be okay with an entire army being proxied, a unit or two or a couple of weapons here and there - so long as it's very clear to me whats what, is fine.

[totgeboren]

Lol that sounds bad on GW's part. I'd never want to invalidate a model, I guess they could be run as Lords?

 

Hehe, they can't even be run as that, since they all have 3 weapons! The CSM Champion in the cultist box also have a combi-melta, poweraxe and boltpistol (and knife!)

All CSM came with bp, bolter and ccw as default in the 4/5ed codex, and Chosen still had it as default in the 6ed codex, so that many player have lots of models with that loadout is to be expected.

I just ask since I am usually a stickler for WYSIWYG, but many of these models can't really be made legal without massive gs work, and I personally feel that some leeway should be given for stuff like that.

[Ishagu]

I smell some hypocrisy in this topic!

 

Double standard galore. Guess I'll have to play Power Levels against the proxy players :-P

[Dragonlover]

So here's the thing: guys I've known for twenty years want to proxy in a power points game? Sure thing, I trust them and know where they're coming from. The kids at work? Hell no. It's way more contextual than playing matched play.

 

Dragonlover

[Servant of Dante]

Having different thoughts about different systems isn't a double standard :D

 

The same things I'd rather not play against proxied in PL, I'd rather not play against in PL even if they are correctly modeled.

[Ishagu]

Not a different system at all, just a different way of balancing your army.

 

I should mention I am the guy who can run every single squad with every single upgrade possible and modelled :-P

[Trevak Dal]

As an aside, what counts for "fully based"? I have been loving that astrogranite tech paint.

[Blindhamster]

A coat of that should count. Just like a layer of flock always did.

[Claws and Effect]

Not a different system at all, just a different way of balancing your army.

 

I should mention I am the guy who can run every single squad with every single upgrade possible and modelled :-P

Yay?

 

Just because you can run anything you want modeled WYSIWYG and know the rules well enough to know if you like a unit just by looking at the datasheet....doesn't mean that is a reasonable standard to hold a new player to.

 

Someone with less than 5 games under their belt who only owns a handful of models simply doesn't know enough about the game to decide if something fits their playstyle without actually using it in a game.

 

I can totally understand wanting to proxy a game or two to get a feel for how a unit plays before shelling out $50 for it.

 

It's not even a matter of wanting the best stuff. I'd be perfectly fine with someone using armless Vanguard for a few games with different loadouts to figure out which one they like enough to finish the models with. I'd prefer they all be armed the same to avoid confusion, but I wouldn't say no. I certainly wouldn't expect them to drop $400 on 10 boxes so they could model every possible variation just to decide which ones they like.

 

I really wonder how many new players you've soured the game for through your refusal to let them try out things they don't own yet.

 

I know *I'd* have been turned off the game if the guys at my local store expected me to spend several hundred dollars on a game before I knew whether I liked it. That was in 1996, and I'm glad those guys were accommodating.

[D3L]

I guess I'm just not that elitist when it comes to a table top, for those of a certain vintage that something like this wouldn't have been out of place at a game club

all we had was coloured counters for units when I started

sans burning tanks in the back ground, of course

epic props to these guys, when all you have is a dipstick and coloured rocks, but still have to purge the xenos...

[CrimsonReign]

with 13k points of chaos to choose from, i dont have every option modelled, far from it
vehicles are magnetised, guy are not

im not going back and adding warp bolters to princes when i have a bunch modelled with gear from different editions already, for example

[the jeske]

Not a different system at all, just a different way of balancing your army.

 

I should mention I am the guy who can run every single squad with every single upgrade possible and modelled :-P

Power points have as much to do with game balancing as I have with long distance running.

 

 

Just because you can run anything you want modeled WYSIWYG and know the rules well enough to know if you like a unit just by looking at the datasheet....doesn't mean that is a reasonable standard to hold a new player to.

 

Dude why do it to yourself trying to explain stuff, this went well beyond normal arguments the moment we got to the  "Because I own every option for my army [that gets updated with new model lines offten], so should all other people to play" point

[Shockmaster]

Full power to anyone who finds what they are looking for from 40k but I would decline a game against this guy & likely any opponent who views 40k as nothing more then a game to be played with whatever items are cheap or easy to hand, as for me the game is just something for like minded hobbyists to put their favourite armies/models on the table for a laugh free from the stresses of real life once a week.

 

I have no problem with people using other companies miniatures in 40k though, as the beauty of this hobby is that so many great models exist.

[Ishagu]

Lol, lots of people seem to disagree. I find it funny. I can call out any proxy as cheating or playing for an advantage.

[Dosjetka]

=][= Less childish bickering, more on-topic discussion. Lest the meltas turn upon Frater rather than posts. =][=