Would you find this acceptable at your gaming group/table?

[Kastor Krieg]

Lol, lots of people seem to disagree. I find it funny. I can call out any proxy as cheating or playing for an advantage.

What is the GAMING ADVANTAGE of playing 4 plasma cannon Devastators counting as 4 Grav Cannons?

 

What GAME RULES (rulebook, codex, index?) do I break while proxying miniatures that you have the gall to call me a cheater?

 

Please, do elaborate. If you can, kindly please, with less disdain for those whose salaries do not match yours.

 

[Ishagu]

Well, you are actively looking to play a superior weapon to the one your models are equipped with. You are putting the stats and performance ahead of the models and hobby.
That's GAMING for an advantage. It can be argued it's the makings of a WAAC mentality. "I don't own something, I haven't painted it, but I'll play it so I have a better chance of winning." 

I happen to put the same importance on the game and the hobby aspect as well.

[Ishagu]

Just to add, I've never seen a player approach a game where his opponent was running a bunch of vehicles and elite units and then say: "Hey, all these really useful Meltas are actually flamers!"

 

And thus my point is made. Putting winning ahead of the hobby and enjoyment of their opponent. Selfish.

[Kastor Krieg]

Well, you are actively looking to play a superior weapon to the one your models are equipped with. You are putting the stats and performance ahead of the models and hobby. That's GAMING for an advantage. It can be argued it's the makings of a WAAC mentality. "I don't own something, I haven't painted it, but I'll play it so I have a better chance of winning." 

 

I happen to put the same importance on the game and the hobby aspect as well.

Then, I assume, were you to play CSM Obliterators, you would have a model for each of the weapon variants possible to randomize? Times however many Obliterators you're fielding?

 

The logical fault you are making is that you are not playing a MODEL, you are playing RULES. The minimum effort to use a Grav Cannon is "pay the points" for it. Whatever the shape of the funny tube in the hands of my Space Marine, it does not affect the RULES of the weapon.

 

Another note - since I like playing Cypher in various armies I run, I've made myself several variants - I have the old DA Cypher. I have the new one. I have a Blood Angels Cypher. I have an Inquisitor-in-PA-as-Cypher. Those are thematicaly appropriate WYSIWYG conversions to make my armies match - and Cypher is known for playing dressup, too.

 

Yet another - so, I can't use my converted Morghast Arkhai as flying DPs? I can't use my converted Ushabti as kSon Oblits? I can't use a Creature Caster Spider Demon as my Slaaneshi Greater Daemon (she's Magnus-sized)?

 

That's CHEATING?

[Ishagu]

A conversion and a proxy are two different things. There is a fine line, yes.

[Kastor Krieg]

Just to add, I've never seen a player approach a game where his opponent was running a bunch of vehicles and elite units and then say: "Hey, all these really useful Meltas are actually flamers!"

 

And thus my point is made. Putting winning ahead of the hobby and enjoyment of their opponent. Selfish.

I've played that game two weeks ago, as part of the Konor campaign. The dude literally said "all my special weapons are flamers" (he had a lot of flamers and a melta and two plasmas tucked in somewhere). He says "sorry, but I don't have the funds to make more variants, this is what I managed to fit in the list, it's 1500 pts flat thanks to that - that's an inferior loadout but it's the only way I can get a game on short notice".

 

Cool, as long as it is easy to track and I know what's what, it's not a problem. Played a game, was fun, nice player. Glad he managed to get out of home on a work day, play a game, drink a beer and have some fun instead of worrying about WYSIWYG Police.

[Ishagu]

I'm not insulting people for not having the funds. What cosmic force is stopping a player from playing with the options and models he has?

 

Is his need to have variety more important than the fun of his opponent?

[Kastor Krieg]

A conversion and a proxy are two different things. There is a fine line, yes.

Straight proxy, my Slaaneshi Greater. Refuse to play against her, I assume. Cheating.

 

http://i.imgur.com/JSztd4m.jpg

(not my actual miniature, this is the shop's image)

[Ishagu]

I wouldn't refuse a game against appropriate counts as third party models who represent a character, as long as the weapons look the same and size is a match.

 

I should add that I would NOT assume that an opponent would be ok with a third party. The third party model is NOT the norm, so you can't EXPECT a gamer to allow it into a game as normal.

[Kastor Krieg]

I'm not insulting people for not having the funds. What cosmic force is stopping a player from playing with the options and models he has?

You may want to re-read yourself and the logical sequence of both of those sequences. Once you realize that the "cosmic force" is "I cannot afford five bloody sets of Devastators in both cash and manhours required to assemble, paint, base and weather them", then you will see how insulting your stance really is.

 

Not your personal quality I think, but rather a quite classic example of "priviledge blindness". You basically said "What cosmic force is stopping those people from eating cake?" in your best wargaming Marie Antoinette.

 

Is his need to have variety more important than the fun of his opponent?

If my opponent's fun is severely degraded by my not being wealthy enough and having time enough to be the owner of enough spare models to satisfy his strict requirement for WYSIWYG, then I refuse to play that person.

[Dragonlover]

Just to add, I've never seen a player approach a game where his opponent was running a bunch of vehicles and elite units and then say: "Hey, all these really useful Meltas are actually flamers!"

 

And thus my point is made. Putting winning ahead of the hobby and enjoyment of their opponent. Selfish.

When the hell has anyone in this thread said that's what they do? We're all coming at it from the perspective of using what we already own across edition changes/accomodating ancient modelling decisions.

 

Dragonlover

[Ishagu]

So you're admitting that a player will proxy options for a gaming advantage?

 

It would make more sense to me to discuss your list with an opponent so the two armies are scaled to each other.

 

 

Ok, you guys want to proxy. Whatever. I don't agree with it, GW's official stance is against it, tournament organisers are against it. It takes away from my enjoyment - but I guess a player who doesn't want to play against an army that isn't what it looks like is a great evil?

[Kastor Krieg]

 

Just to add, I've never seen a player approach a game where his opponent was running a bunch of vehicles and elite units and then say: "Hey, all these really useful Meltas are actually flamers!"

 

And thus my point is made. Putting winning ahead of the hobby and enjoyment of their opponent. Selfish.

When the hell has anyone in this thread said that's what they do? We're all coming at it from the perspective of using what we already own across edition changes/accomodating ancient modelling decisions.

 

Dragonlover

 

I've seen that happen and I am 100% fine with that as long as it's across the board or at the very least weapon type. 

[Ishagu]

I find your stances on the matter personally insulting to players who take the time, spend the money and make the effort to model their armies appropriately.

 

You're EXPECTING them to be accommodating to you. That's selfish.

[Kastor Krieg]

So you're admitting that a player will proxy options for a gaming advantage?

 

It would make more sense to me to discuss your list with an opponent so the two armies are scaled to each other.

Not necessarily for advantage, no. Sometimes it's the only feasible for them to field the amount of models that gets them to the required points and some of them have weapons that get the over these points. My opponent couldn't affor the way better plasma and melta weapons, so he chose to "downgrade" them all to flamers. 80% of his Sallies had flamers anyway. I had zero issues with all of them counting as flamers. Thematic, fluffy, makes it easier on him to field his army and get a game day. Cool.

[Dragonlover]

And I find your unwillingness to engage with the concept that I might not have the cash to buy literally one of everything personally insulting and disrespectful of me as a human being, never mind as a player.

 

Dragonlover

[Ishagu]

I'm more than willing to engage. I'd hear any player out.

 

I certainly wouldn't be as accommodating if they just expected me to be ok with proxies, counts as, etc.

[Dantay VI]

I find a lot of this can be solved by the use of magnets allowing swapping out of weapon options, especially if you are on a budget

[Kastor Krieg]

I find your stances on the matter personally insulting to players who take the time, spend the money and make the effort to model their armies appropriately.

 

You're EXPECTING them to be accommodating to you. That's selfish.

I have zero expectations. I am willing to accomodate those less fortunate (in time, wealth, opportunity, etc.) and would like to be afforded the same kindness. It's no skin off my nose and fortunately I rarely if ever will require the favour returned.

 

On the other hand, I see that you have only the strictest expectations of your opponents, purely because you were priviledged enough to have the money, time and opportunity to be able to spend the effort. I will allow others to judge which stance is the one guided by one's ego.

[Ishagu]

I did just say I'm willing to hear players out.

 

My attitude towards this comes from people who frankly took the pee over the years.

 

Eg: Guy who used a cardboard cut out as a Stormsurge for months, then never bought one.

 

Players who adjust their troops weapon options to counter lists they play against. Loads of flamers against Orks, plasmas and Grav against Marines, etc.

 

People who abuse this, and are vague with their armies, etc.

Now, not everyone is this way, but the offenders outweigh those few who have the better intentions.

 

In this very topic, the TC mentioned how a player at his local is using green army men as a proxy to poxwalkers, and has no intent whatsoever to actually get the real models.

 

No, I would not be accommodating to him!

[Kastor Krieg]

I find a lot of this can be solved by the use of magnets allowing swapping out of weapon options, especially if you are on a budget

Quite a lot of the options (Marine hands holding two-hand weapons, for example) have too small and shallow points of contacts to reasonably magnetize. This also requires, yet again, funds (for magnets and drills), tools, time, forethought, opportunity, etc.; 

 

I know a lot of people playing "rescued armies" where their investment was buying a "thin your paint" prebuilt army, stripping them and then slowly working towards undercoating, zenith highlighting and then maybe painting these. They had zero chance to pick loadouts in the only armies they could affort.

 

Again, this WYSIWYG obsession is yet another requirement totally uncalled for, that only serves to alienate people from the hobby instead of being inclusive. That's a problem on its own. When this is done on a purely monetary basis, it's priviledged elitism at its worst.

[Dosjetka]

=][= Kastor Krieg and Ishagu: enough. You do not derail a thread to continue arguing a point back and forth. You drop the argument and agree to disagree or if you want to argue about a disgreement, you take it to PM's or off the B&C altogether. This kind of behaviour is not tolerated and you should both know better. =][=

[Ishagu]

I apologise to all.

 

It's funny, a similar discussion pops up every now and then and I come out looking like a villain :-P

[Kastor Krieg]

On-topic:

 

I would gladly accomodate a player who proxies his poxwalkers or some other horde cultist unit with green army men because he can't afford 40+ GW miniatures and he already has those.

At the same time, I would not tolerate him being a snide snob like you've described. Even if he were not, if we were playing for free at a table at an FLGS and he knew he would not be able to buy from them (either miniatures, hobby tools, paint or even snacks / soda cans), I'd encourage him to ask the FLGS owner if he can help out in another way. Maybe play some demo games with kids / new players? Help clean up tables after games or set up terrain creatively? Bring some friends who might be inclined to buy at the FLGS and have a good time while being there? Whatever he's good at, however small thing he can do to help and build the community around the FLGS.

[deathspectersgt7]

I knew you were Snidely Whiplash in disguise .