Frater Cornelius Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Right now I am struggling to find a balance between vehicles and boots on the groud (aka dudes). There is an 1850 list I am playing around, which is an UM list with Primaris and Guilliman. But there is one specific point that gives me trouble. In the end I arrive at 10 Scouts, 10 Intercessors, 4 Characters (one of them is Guilliman), 6 Hellblasters, 2 Dreads and 2 Tanks. While solid on paper, I sort of feel naked. I have very little bubble wrap outside of Scouts to block deep strikes. An alternative would be to drop the Ironclad and 5 Scouts to include 10 Reiver, which are a far more effective bubble wrap against melee, especially since they can throw their -1 hit grenade in Overwatch. They also give me greater footprint and option to hunt the backfield with grapples. But are they better than an Ironclad and 5 Scouts? Performance wise, probably not. So here is the question. Am I paranoid that melee rush lists like Nids are lurking around every corner, or do really need more dudes to have a greater field presence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Sirus Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Its a difficult balance to obtain and in some cases its probably like trying to catch a unicorn, impossible. I dont say this in a bad way, but what you have to remember is that what works for one encounter may be torn apart by another, its the knife edge that all-comers lists walk upon, to much infantry and you may not have the fire power to deals with tanks, too much anti tank and a horde rush will eat you. To begin with what 4 characters are you taking? What do they bring to your list? As over loading on characters could be the source of some of your issues, 4 characters at 1850 is alot especially with Guilliman eating a huge chunk of your points. List wise the rest seems quite balanced, you have the troops, some good AP in the hellblasters, some good power from the ironclad but what is the other dread? What tanks are you taking? All these pieces help with the puzzle. If you can give a clearer idea of which units you are taking as hqs and armour then more in depth advice can be given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 16, 2017 Author Share Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) Sorry, I meant 2 characters. Guilliman and Ancient with the banner. Chronus is my HQ. I was thinking about something else. The precise setup is this: Hidden Content Chronus Ancient - Relic Banner Ironclad - Chainfist, HF, Hurricane Redemptor - full dakka 10 Intercessors - 1 Grenade Launcher 10 Scouts - 1 HB (keeping both units in 10 with the option to Combat Squad if needed) 6 Hellblasters Quad Las Pred Repulsor - Twin LC, rest is basic Guilliman 7 CP I did not want to post the whole thing, because the list is UM-specific. Edited August 16, 2017 by Frater Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Less Guilliman = more dudes? Brother Christopher 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Sirus Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Your list looks like it has its bases covered, it had anti tank, good auras, the dreads help with using high rate of fire weapons for anti infantry. Unfortunately i think running Guilliman will always result in this issue, he is a huge points investment for a great force multiplier and he only gets better the larger the force he has to multiply, but in an 1850 list every unit you lose will quickly take away the power he can boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 I know how you feel. Since redoing my entire UM army with Primaris I can't believe how small it feels on the table. I almost hate the fact I love my Repulsor (if that makes any sense) because I feel like I have to have really minor HQ's or I'm screwed on the hordes or fast cc armies with Orks Nids and now even Chaos. In my opinion I do better when using Guilliman without tanks and instead using long strings of bodies creating deep strike plugs and the ability to use the Interceptor type strategum. Frater Cornelius 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 16, 2017 Author Share Posted August 16, 2017 Less Guilliman = more dudes? Less Guilliman means that I can include my Reivers. However, it also means only re-rolls of 1 for hit and wound, unless I use the CM upgrade, which costs me 3 out of 7 CP. I suppose this is a quality over quantity issue. But I still feel uneasy, because I seem to lack bubble wraps against T1 melee tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Sirus Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Turn 1 melee can be avoided by deploying further back in your deployment zone, yes it gives you opponent a head start in objective grabbing but an extra turn of shooting can make the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Less Guilliman = more dudes? Less Guilliman means that I can include my Reivers. However, it also means only re-rolls of 1 for hit and wound, unless I use the CM upgrade, which costs me 3 out of 7 CP. I suppose this is a quality over quantity issue. But I still feel uneasy, because I seem to lack bubble wraps against T1 melee tactics. Man, bump that. Avoid melee and shoot them down. To do that you need more guns ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 Fair enough. But then there are those Gene-Stealers popping out of Trygon Primes, moving against with the Swarmlord. It is impossible to deploy far enough to hide from that. They virtually have unlimited range. But on the other hand, this is oddly specific. Is it worth improving against this one specific scenario, but becoming against most others? Probably not though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Sirus Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Its good to weigh up all possibilities but at the same time you dont want to aim to purely counter a very specific scenario, and remember you can always fall back and shoot if you have too. Race Bannon and Frater Cornelius 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Lightstar Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) Try this: ++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [18 PL, 360pts] ++ + Lord of War + Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 360pts] ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [87 PL, 1490pts] ++ + HQ + Librarian [6 PL, 107pts]: 6) Null Zone, Bolt pistol, Force stave Sergeant Chronus [11 PL, 225pts] . Predator: Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons + Troops + Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant Scout Squad [10 PL, 120pts] . Scout Sergeant . 8x Scout w/Boltgun . Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter + Elites + Ironclad Dreadnought [8 PL, 147pts]: Dreadnought chainfist, Heavy flamer, Hurricane bolter Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 202pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, Onslaught Gatling Cannon + Heavy Support + Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 198pts]: Plasma incinerator . 5x Hellblaster . Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol + Dedicated Transport + Repulsor [16 PL, 291pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Auto Launchers, Icarus Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, 2x Krakstrom Grenade Launcher, Las-talon, Twin heavy bolter ++ Total: [105 PL, 1850pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe 9 Command points too Edited August 17, 2017 by Rik Lightstar Frater Cornelius 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 Drop Ancient and a Hellblaster to get a Librarian? Certainly an option, but how does it solve the dude issue? On an unrelated note, Librarian is welcome due to DtW and buffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Lightstar Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) Keeps the list largely the same (no/few new models needed) but by changing it up you get an extra 3 Command Points which when used for your Lascannon damage rolls should resolve any anti rank issues or will allow you to get an Orbital Barrage (great fun btw) on turn one hitting a whole bunch of units. I'd personally drop Guilliman for more guys though. You can get a LOT for his points. Rik Edited August 17, 2017 by Rik Lightstar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Less Guilliman = more dudes? Less Guilliman means that I can include my Reivers. However, it also means only re-rolls of 1 for hit and wound, unless I use the CM upgrade, which costs me 3 out of 7 CP. I suppose this is a quality over quantity issue. But I still feel uneasy, because I seem to lack bubble wraps against T1 melee tactics. Man, bump that. Avoid melee and shoot them down. To do that you need more guns Do chainswords count as guns? If so, I got a lotta guns. If not...I still got a lotta chainswords. Even better. I'm still yet to try a Tide list since 8th dropped, come to think of it. Could be interesting, but even Templars still can't approach half the number of models some armies can throw down. Even taking nothing but bare bones Initiates and Neophytes a 2k list is 'only' 83 models. I've come to look at units more than boots, oddly enough. 3 full-ish troop choices and a couple of elites is about all the infantry I can put into a big list before I have to start scrambling for big guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 My experience with backfield units, (I have 2 5 man devs, and sometimes a sniper scout squad back there) is that it's not as big of a deal as you think. If they just drop a squad like reivers/stormboys/JP's it will kill one of your min squads if they make a charge. (If) Then the rest of your army, or whatever is necessary, can sweep them right off. The trouble then is a massive drop behind your lines, but I'm sure you'll notice all the drop pods/spores/etc. I haven't seen a list dropping 50% of it's points yet. It'll happen eventually (looks at B. Templars). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 How many dudes is enough dudes? The answer should be obvious: 42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluriel00 Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 ^ ^ LOL Civilian - "How many dudes is enough dudes?" Space Marine - "All of the them." Frater Cornelius 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 (edited) I usually try to get 40-50 bodies into my lists. Preferably 70+. There's a critical mass at which an army starts to benefit from infantry saturation, But then I really like tactical marines and devastates. Edited August 24, 2017 by tdemayo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SydonianDragoon404 Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 I recently tried out a double battalion detachment, took mostly 5 man squads of Crusaders and a 5 man squad of Intercessors, big heavy duty vehicles to transport and support them like LRC, Storm Raven, Twin Las Razorback. Oh yeah and a Leviathan Dreadnought for good measure. Worked out quite well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 Played against a Khorne Zerker rush list. He had 6 characters, 48 Zerkers and 6 Rhinos. It wasn't quite enough. But then I lost against Ynnari, who had less that me, but won the shoot-out, but then the Ynnari lost against gene stealers. Quite match-up dependent, but the consensus was that the Zerker list needed some heavier stuff to support the dudes and that the Ynnari Eldar list was the very definition of glass cannon. Nobody knows what to think about Primaris though. What I can say is that it never felt not enough, but it would've been nice to be a bit tougher. Most troubles were misplays and not the lack of dudes. The margin of error is small, but the dudes seem just fine. Prot 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrystalSeer Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 The focus shouldn't be on guys, but on the unit's purpose. What are you trying to accomplish and what is the best unit for the job? Right now, tanks seem better at staying alive and carrying heavy weapons, with a possible exception of centurions. So infantry are good for assaults and capturing objectives. Plan accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoK Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Used to be 87 plus 3 dreads, but now it's 82 plus 3 dreads, thanks to loosing Command squads. If I min down squads I can get up to 102. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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