BA versus hordes

[Benwin007]

I'm having a real issue against horde armies. I try to build balance but they don't work against horde. Does anyone have any suggestions on type of units to use and why so that I can understand. We don't run large point games all under 2k. Edited August 20, 2017 by Benwin007

[NTaW]

Razorbacks with twin assault cannons carrying heavy flamer equipped Devastator squads may help.

[Jolemai]

Moved to the BA discussion forum.

[Benwin007]

I thought I was already in the BA discussion forum?

What are you thinking NTaW? Disembark and rembark as soon as possible?

[NTaW]

There's a lot of high rate of fire options open to us, pick the ones your collection allows. Twin assault cannons, heavy flamers, frag cannons; all that fun stuff will help you against hordes. I offered one example of such a unit but you can't just take one of anything and realistically expect consistent results, you have to build redundancies into your lists so that units work together to accomplish their goals. There isn't really one right answer.

 

What list are you using that you want to make more efficient?

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Which armies are giving you fits and what have you tried that isn't working Benwin007?

 

Provide some more info =)

[Indefragable]

As a Tactic, built in split fire helps a ton. Concentrate all fire on that super star destroyer blob until it goes down. Massed fire often does the trick.

 

Is it large conscript/gaunt/boyz blobs that are hurting you? Waves of cheap fire-soaking units?

 

In terms of things to add into your army...

 

Devastator squad

-4x heavy flamers

-combi-flamer on the Sgt

-ablative bodies to taste

Primaris Lieutenant

 

That's a start, anyways.

[Ceril]

Company Veterans with storm bolters and chainswords. You can do 3-5 squads of 2 marines or something. Or one bigger squad if you worry about the counter attack Stratagem. Give all jump packs.

Deep strike, clear the area while being incover a bit away from the enemy. Then move up next turn, fire again and charge. Or charge the same turn if can make a 9inch charge/feeling lucky. Against melee horde having multiple squads so at least 1-2 make it out of say ~4.

Just a couple of ways to do it out of many more.

[Panzer]

Heavy Flamer Devs in a AssBack actually sounds pretty potent against hordes. Hard to imagine anything better.

[Benwin007]

My original list I ran was 750

HQ

Chaplain hand flamer

Sanguinary priest hand flamer

Troop

2 5man scout squads 4 snipers 1 missle launcher

Elite

5 man death company 2 thunder hammers 3 power axes

Rhino 2 storm bolter and Hunter killer

Heavy

Dev squad 5 man Las plas missle h bolter

[Benwin007]

Anti horde

Hq

Tech Marine additional servo harness Combi flamer

Troop

2 6man scout squad 5 snipers 1 missle

Fast

Land speeder assault cannon multi melta

Heavy

5 man Dev squad 4 h flamers Combi flamer

Razorback twin assault cannon

[Ceril]

For your original list, I don't think handflamers are ever worth it. Take a stormbolter instead. Your dc has too many toys: I'd keep it at 1TH 2swords and the last two as chainsword. These are also your first to die when they get attacked. Your dev squad might want to be more focused, take two lascannons. With all the saved points put it towards what you need. If anti horde then something with assault cannon. Upgrade your rhino to an razorback with assault cannon. Add jump packs to dc for mobility, means you can go over horde and hit their characters in the back/get objectives. Probably to characters too. Your rhino is a eggs in same basket problem, takes 3-4lascannon shots to kill it and then most of your army is rendered useless.

 

This all depends on how you want to play, this is just how I would do it. Depends on your meta and how much you want to specialize against opponents. TAC lists and meta specialization is cool, but I can't help that it feels scum baggy to list tailor a friend for a beer and pretzel -style of game.

[Remtek]

When you charge into hordes attack them on the flanks // corners, this will reduce how many can fight back. All of your models will get to hit but when the horde unit piles in very few will be able to strike back. 

[NTaW]

My original list I ran was 750

HQ

Chaplain hand flamer

Sanguinary priest hand flamer

Troop

2 5man scout squads 4 snipers 1 missle launcher

Elite

5 man death company 2 thunder hammers 3 power axes

Rhino 2 storm bolter and Hunter killer

Heavy

Dev squad 5 man Las plas missle h bolter

Those Scout squads aren't doing you any favours against infantry units really, I would save them for higher points values where you want to use a Battalion Detachment and the enemy may have more characters on the field. It may be worth looking at what other units your collection has to offer, what are some other units you can play/like?

[Brother apocalyptic]

Best antihorde BA has access to:

Baal predator (18 dakkabullits each turn)

Devs with missiles (go frag or krak at a helluva range)

Captain & leiutenant (for golden buff)

Dc marines with jumppacks, chainsword and pistol

Chaplain, to make the DC really work

Redeemer, puts the hurting on ANYTHING.

[Panzer]

 

My original list I ran was 750

HQ

Chaplain hand flamer

Sanguinary priest hand flamer

Troop

2 5man scout squads 4 snipers 1 missle launcher

Elite

5 man death company 2 thunder hammers 3 power axes

Rhino 2 storm bolter and Hunter killer

Heavy

Dev squad 5 man Las plas missle h bolter

Those Scout squads aren't doing you any favours against infantry units really, I would save them for higher points values where you want to use a Battalion Detachment and the enemy may have more characters on the field. It may be worth looking at what other units your collection has to offer, what are some other units you can play/like?

 

Depends. Against AM they could be useful to snipe a nasty Comissar which would make the rest of the horde much more manageable.

[Arkhanist]

Forgeworld quad heavy bolter rapiers are cheap anti-horde. A relic Leviathan with two grav bombards is a horde eraser. Depends upon your group though, using (arguably underpointed) forgeworld units can be a bit cheesy if you're playing beer-and-pretzels mode.

[TheHarrower]

Chaplain Gunzhard, on 21 Aug 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

TheHarrower, on 21 Aug 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

 

Base list I've been running lately has 2 AssCan Razors, Raven with AssCan and Hurricane Bolters, Scouts with Snipers and Missile Launcher, 8 DC with Lemmy, and Devs with 4 Missile Launchers. I don't face max hordes, typically I'm dealing with 3 units of 30 whatever, but I've been able to deal with those fairly well. If I don't totally shoot them off the table before they get to me (rarely), I am able to successfully thin them out enough that I can deal with them in assault. Are you dealing with a lot more?

 

 

Oh man I face Chaos spam on the reg... tons of cheap bodies with invuls that don't give a damn about AP. I mean, chances are you're a much better player than me, but I think my Chaos opponent would destroy your list, at least if I were using it haha. You have so few units. The Stormraven is a beast of course, but once they tie up your other 4 units they're neutralized. At least in previous editions your vehicles didn't stay locked in combat, now you can move out sure, but then you can't shoot. Tons of cheap Smite, for chaos at least, has been able to kill my Stormraven in the first turn on several occasions.

 

So now I have to keep my Stormraven on the fringes, which basically means my dreadnought is not getting where he needs to be... all of this might be ok if I didn't have so few units to deal with threats and take/hold objectives.

 

Do you not play objective missions?

 

 

 

Continuing a conversation in this thread so I'm not thread jacking...

 

I typically play objective-based missions. I haven't had to deal with smite spam, so the Raven lasts long enough to get everything where it needs to be. I'd imagine against smite spam it wouldn't be nearly as effective. Above list is my base. In the Raven I run 10 Assault Marines, Corbs, Mephy and a DC Dread. I also run a Autocannon/Las Pred with a Tactical Squad.

 

The couple games where I have lost the Raven quick it was a tough slog. I got crushed by a Ynnari tournament list, but mostly I haven't had many issues. I do run the Raven on the fringes at first and usually do a coordinated assault with the DC coming in around turn 3. Corbs and Meph make Assaults Marines really good and it's been working for me. I play semi-competitive lists, but most of the people at my store aren't bringing the hard core stuff so YMMV.

[SM1981]

 

++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [45 PL, 798pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Select Chapter: Blood Angels

 

+ Flyer +

 

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL]: 2x Stormstrike missile launcher, Twin assault cannon, Twin heavy bolter

 

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL]: 2x Stormstrike missile launcher, Twin assault cannon, Twin heavy bolter

 

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL]: 2x Stormstrike missile launcher, Twin assault cannon, Twin heavy bolter

 

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [35 PL] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Select Chapter: Blood Angels

 

+ HQ +

 

Commander Dante [11 PL]

 

Librarian [7 PL]: Bolt pistol, Force sword, Jump Pack

 

+ Troops +

 

Scout Squad [6 PL]

. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle

. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle

. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle

. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Camo cloak, Sniper rifle

 

Scout Squad [6 PL]

. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle

. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle

. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle

. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Camo cloak, Sniper rifle

 

Tactical Squad [5 PL]

. 4x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol and boltgun

 

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [31 PL] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Librarian [7 PL]: Bolt pistol, Force sword, Jump Pack, Sanguinary Discipline, Smite

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Baal Predator [8 PL]: Twin assault cannon

. Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

 

Baal Predator [8 PL]: Twin assault cannon

. Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

 

Baal Predator [8 PL]: Twin assault cannon

. Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

 

++ Total: [111 PL] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

 

 

 

The above comes in at exactly 2000 Pts. More Dakka than even a Green Skin could want.

 

Dante to follow flyers with his reroll buff. Troops because you need some troops. Everything else is there for weight of fire and maneuverability.

[Aothaine]

Razorbacks with twin assault cannons carrying heavy flamer equipped Devastator squads may help.

 

 

This is what you want right now. Twin-assault cannon razorbacks with 5-man tac squads with heavy flamers. They are great against hordes, the flamers wreck flyers since they only need to wound and the 5-man tac/dev squads are just all-around really good for their cost.

 

Flyers are good but you need redundancy. Taking one flyer is really dangerous. I suggest they be in packs of 2-3.

 

 

Spearhead Detachment

 

HQ - Libby on Bike (mobility and stat boost)

 

5-man Dev squad (4 Heavy Flamers) + Razorback w/ Twin Assault Cannons x3

 

I don't have my dexs on me right now so I can't calculate the points, but this would horrify most lists even if they are not swarms.

[Benwin007]

When you charge into hordes attack them on the flanks // corners, this will reduce how many can fight back. All of your models will get to hit but when the horde unit piles in very few will be able to strike back.

Dude I didn't think about that thank you

[Benwin007]

 

My original list I ran was 750

HQ

Chaplain hand flamer

Sanguinary priest hand flamer

Troop

2 5man scout squads 4 snipers 1 missle launcher

Elite

5 man death company 2 thunder hammers 3 power axes

Rhino 2 storm bolter and Hunter killer

Heavy

Dev squad 5 man Las plas missle h bolter

Those Scout squads aren't doing you any favours against infantry units really, I would save them for higher points values where you want to use a Battalion Detachment and the enemy may have more characters on the field. It may be worth looking at what other units your collection has to offer, what are some other units you can play/like?

My issue is we have a campaign and we are held to a 25% rule based on total number we play. So example 25 percent of 500 is 125 that means everything besides troops are held to that max number of 125 and that for the whole list not just a formation.

[Benwin007]

Best antihorde BA has access to:

Baal predator (18 dakkabullits each turn)

Devs with missiles (go frag or krak at a helluva range)

Captain & leiutenant (for golden buff)

Dc marines with jumppacks, chainsword and pistol

Chaplain, to make the DC really work

Redeemer, puts the hurting on ANYTHING.

For the baal predator you talk all flamers or all guns?

[Silas7]

All the dakka all the time. He's talking about bringing all the guns.

[NTaW]

 

 

My original list I ran was 750

HQ

Chaplain hand flamer

Sanguinary priest hand flamer

Troop

2 5man scout squads 4 snipers 1 missle launcher

Elite

5 man death company 2 thunder hammers 3 power axes

Rhino 2 storm bolter and Hunter killer

Heavy

Dev squad 5 man Las plas missle h bolter

Those Scout squads aren't doing you any favours against infantry units really, I would save them for higher points values where you want to use a Battalion Detachment and the enemy may have more characters on the field. It may be worth looking at what other units your collection has to offer, what are some other units you can play/like?

My issue is we have a campaign and we are held to a 25% rule based on total number we play. So example 25 percent of 500 is 125 that means everything besides troops are held to that max number of 125 and that for the whole list not just a formation.

 

 

None of that says you have to use two squads of snipers in your list though, unless those are the only models you have for Troops and you have to take X number of Troop options. You're saying you have a hard time with hordes but are allocating 200+ points of your list to character assassination. 

 

We're finding out there's a cap on units outside of Troops, are there Detachment restrictions as well or model/proxy restrictions from your collection (for example do you own/can proxy four heavy flamers for a Devastator squad since that is a decent option here)? Crucial information for getting real help with your conundrum.