Blood Angel Lore vs. Gameplay Identity

[Quixus]

I don't understand what the problem is. Just because it's ordered that way doesn't mean ours is any less valued. Also, who cares if wulfen are better? In almost everything warewolves are stronger than vampires. It's a different curse, it's a different unit, and it's a different comparison. 

 

I'm not going to get upset over wulfen having better rules.

I don't mind one wulfen model being better than one DC model, but if  a unit of wulfen can wipe the floor with a unit of DC point for point, and BA do not get other more efficient units, there is a balance problem.

 

But let's postpone the lamentations until after GW screws up releases the codices.

[brother_b]

The wolf brothers sure do look strong. I'm impressed with what they've got, and happy for them. I don't know how that army plays, and haven't seen much of it around here but hats off.

 

Balancing is very hard to do, I know that it's just about impossible to get a perfectly balanced game. That being said, our SG look to be as close as we've got to the Wulfen, with the 2 wounds and stuff. They just miss out on that sweet invuln equipment.

 

I just picked up a box but am working on my patrol detachment first. Will be interested in getting them put together and out on the table.

[Indefragable]

I don't understand what the problem is. Just because it's ordered that way doesn't mean ours is any less valued. Also, who cares if wulfen are better? In almost everything warewolves are stronger than vampires. It's a different curse, it's a different unit, and it's a different comparison.

 

I'm not going to get upset over wulfen having better rules.

Hidden Content

My gripe is that (correct me if I am wrong) the Black Rage has been around in fluff longer than Wulfen (right?cim like 90% sure), and, more importantly, it has been far more centra to our Faction's identity. Yet, the Wulfen curse is literally bigger, faster, stronger, tougher, than ours. It's an eye-roll of all eye-rolls.

 

What's more, is that BA "need" DC far more than SW need Wulfen. The array of units and capabilities SW have is impressive and self sufficient. BA, however, don't have many of the vanilla "good" units yet our substitutes--like D.C.--don't make up for that gap.

 

Our super roid-raging angry dudes who junk they are a Primarch are equivalent to the untested newbies (Bloodclaws) of the SW. Let that sink in for a moment. One had to seriously wonder if anyone at GW HQ plays BA.

 

It's not a huge deal, but it is symptomatic of our current plight. And if you don't think we have a plight* at the moment you probably haven't played enough games yet.

[TheHarrower]

I don't understand what the problem is. Just because it's ordered that way doesn't mean ours is any less valued. Also, who cares if wulfen are better? In almost everything warewolves are stronger than vampires. It's a different curse, it's a different unit, and it's a different comparison. 

 

I'm not going to get upset over wulfen having better rules.

 

The problem is Space Wolves are always stealing our thunder. They have a solid close combat dreadnought, unique dedicated flyer, melee specialist unit, etc. We had all that in 5th and it's all gone at this point. I don't begrudge people for being angry about it. I'm annoyed by it myself.

[Panzer]

It's sad but true. The only thing Spacewolves didn't "stole" from us (they really didn't steal anything but they have things we'd love to have) are Jump Pack melee units, fast tanks and flamer everywhere.

Afaik Wulfen are no Infantry so it's possible they won't benefit from the SW chapter tactic equivalent once they get their Codex, while our Jump Pack infantry should do so. Same with Thunderwolf Cavalry. Depending on the board they will have some problems as well since Cavalry and beasts can't climb up to the upper floors in ruins while Jump Pack infantry can and also can simply jump over Ruins anyway while Wulfen and TWC would have to walk around.

So we do have some advantages over SW...we just need something so we could actually use those advantages properly since all those things won't matter much if we can't compete in melee with our melee units....that also counts towards all those ideas about giving us boni to get into melee out of deep strike or whatever. Getting into melee is not our biggest problem. Winning melee against other melee units is our problem imo.

[Indefragable]

 

 

I don't understand what the problem is. Just because it's ordered that way doesn't mean ours is any less valued. Also, who cares if wulfen are better? In almost everything warewolves are stronger than vampires. It's a different curse, it's a different unit, and it's a different comparison.

 

I'm not going to get upset over wulfen having better rules.

The problem is Space Wolves are always stealing our thunder. They have a solid close combat dreadnought, unique dedicated flyer, melee specialist unit, etc. We had all that in 5th and it's all gone at this point. I don't begrudge people for being angry about it. I'm annoyed by it myself.

Exactly. I don't ever want to be envious of another's kid's toys on his birthday, but when my toys are given to him as well, it's annoying.

 

...which even then is ok, so long as we have equivalent replacements.

[tychobi]

I feel that the speculation regarding how we are going to be treated in terms of "chapter tactic" or equivalent has been extremely conservative.  Compare to Ultra smurfs or Salamanders or Raven Guard for equivalency power and most suggestions fall extremely short.  Enemy can't run away?  So what.  Shoot non pistols in combat?  Who cares.  8th will get its power creep and we will be part of it.  They have shown that they are not afraid of putting really powerful rules in place for other chapters so lets dream big!

 

Melee is terrible this ed. I for one hope that our "chapter tactic" does not pigeon hole us into an assault role as that would leave us behind the curve in 8th from the get go competitively.  

 

It is gonna have to be big if they want to sell red marines on the back of the new dex.  Here is hoping they make a competitively relevant Blood Angels codex for a change and that means contending with Gulliman razorback parking lots screened by conscripts and refunding command dice. There are really really hard lists out there that right now we do not have any answer for.  

 

My vote for  Blood Angels chapter tactic is  this:  Re-roll failed to wound rolls. Simple and nasty.  Good for all seasons/roles. No need to shore up our book with overpriced stratagems or deal with finicky situational stat bonuses etc.  Get it done GW

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

I don't understand what the problem is. Just because it's ordered that way doesn't mean ours is any less valued. Also, who cares if wulfen are better? In almost everything warewolves are stronger than vampires. It's a different curse, it's a different unit, and it's a different comparison.

 

I'm not going to get upset over wulfen having better rules.

The problem is Space Wolves are always stealing our thunder. They have a solid close combat dreadnought, unique dedicated flyer, melee specialist unit, etc. We had all that in 5th and it's all gone at this point. I don't begrudge people for being angry about it. I'm annoyed by it myself.

Exactly. I don't ever want to be envious of another's kid's toys on his birthday, but when my toys are given to him as well, it's annoying.

 

...which even then is ok, so long as we have equivalent replacements.

They didn't get our toys, though. They got their own. Stop comparing their werewolves to our death company. They aren't the same thing in any measure of the sense.

[TheHarrower]

 

 

 

I don't understand what the problem is. Just because it's ordered that way doesn't mean ours is any less valued. Also, who cares if wulfen are better? In almost everything warewolves are stronger than vampires. It's a different curse, it's a different unit, and it's a different comparison.

 

I'm not going to get upset over wulfen having better rules.

The problem is Space Wolves are always stealing our thunder. They have a solid close combat dreadnought, unique dedicated flyer, melee specialist unit, etc. We had all that in 5th and it's all gone at this point. I don't begrudge people for being angry about it. I'm annoyed by it myself.

Exactly. I don't ever want to be envious of another's kid's toys on his birthday, but when my toys are given to him as well, it's annoying.

 

...which even then is ok, so long as we have equivalent replacements.

They didn't get our toys, though. They got their own. Stop comparing their werewolves to our death company. They aren't the same thing in any measure of the sense.

 

 

Fair enough. I'll give you the wulfen, but not the flyer and the close combat dread.

[Arkangilos]

That's fair. Hopefully we will get our own flier one day.

[TheHarrower]

That's fair. Hopefully we will get our own flier one day.

 

I would LOVE a dedicated flyer, but honestly I just want an army that's feared in assault. Give me that with the new Codex and no new models at all and I'll still be happy.

[Orpheus Black Blood]

The tatic i would like would be something like 2 more movement for units with jump packs and +2 to charge range when charging for every blood angel infantry and maybe dreadnought.

That would cover our superior control over jump packs and the ferocity of the assaults.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Orpheus Black Blood

[Panzer]

That's the kind of tactic I'd hate the most since not everything in a Blood Angels army has Jump Packs.

[Orpheus Black Blood]

And that's true, but there's the other part with the +2 to charge.

[pandion40]

I think GW has had problems with us in the past because most of GW just saw us as the Black Rage/Red Thirst Chapter, i think things are changing slowly. I'd say they've now decided we are the Shock and awe chapter, now they have to put that into a set of rules. I'm hoping they get it right but the direction they went with in our index list doesn't fill me with confidence.

 

I also wouldn't dismiss the influence the space wolves have on our codex. We both have a strong appreciation for melee. GW wants armies to be different they don't want to many rules crossing over. And the fact is Space Wolves are far more popular with the GW employees than us.

 

This impacts us in at least 2 ways in my opinion.

1- The wolves get first call on any rules, this limits our codex out the gate.

2- whoever does the wolves codex is probably a fan themselves plus their inundated with feedback and suggestions from all levels of GW.

The person doing our codex on the other hand is probably not a fan but more importantly the only people offering any feedback or support are thoes whoes job it is to do so. This has resulted in some wildly inconsistent codices over the years.

 

The wolfen have alot in common with our death company and as they've become more popular they've pushed our death company out of their traditional role.

 

I also think raven guard in the past have hit our jump pack rules in the same way, but to a lesser extent.

 

In order to get us right i believe the higher ups have to take a firmer hand. They need to not worry if our Death Company is similar to the wolfen or berserkers, also they need to be able to say no to the team writing the wolves book. Most importantly for me they need a firm understanding of who we are beyond the flaws.

 

I think GW's problems with us is reflected in our fiction to. What fiction we get is mostly about the flaws, we've done nothing in the Heresy. One muh book about signus that should have been 2 or 3 books in my opinion. I dont think this is done out of malice i just think nobody there is interested in us. Our roles at Signus and the seige of terra are known so we've got or will get books about them, but when the authers and GW were adding all the new background about the Heresy nobody was interested in pitching anything new or interesting for the Blood Angels, and that there is our main issue.

 

We've recently had Guy Haleys great Dante novel come out which gives me some hope, and proves you don't need a fan writing a product to get a great result. But even Guy stated he was surprised at how little info there was on us given how big our chapters fan base is. The Mephiston novel also gave me hope for similar reasons.

 

Out of interest what was your favourite past codex of ours?

[Arkangilos]

I don't understand how people don't think we are the red thirst chapter. The flaw is literally the only thing that makes the Blood Angels who they are. Their entire culture, their strategies, their being is all built around it. It's been that way since the beginning.

 

Without it we literally are no different than any other chapter.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Panzer]

Yes and no.

It is an insanely huge part of what makes Blood Angels what they are, but without it we would still have a ton of blood themed things (even before Sanguinius there was a lot of blood theme in Baals and its moons culture) and Blood Angels would still be about the shock&awe since that's what the Emperor wanted them to be even before he gave them to Sanguinius.

[pandion40]

I don't understand how people don't think we are the red thirst chapter. The flaw is literally the only thing that makes the Blood Angels who they are. Their entire culture, their strategies, their being is all built around it. It's been that way since the beginning.

Without it we literally are no different than any other chapter.

Then I feel sorry for you. The thirst is an important part of our lore, the struggle against it informs every aspect of our being. But it doesn't exist in a vacume. The Blood Angels are so much more than that. First there is our love of art, this is used as a way to combat the thirst but predates widespread knowledge of the thirst, we were the shock and awe Legion before our flaws were a factor, there's our love of flying, a legacy of our Primarch unrelated to the Flaws. We produce more psykers than the average chapter, were longer lived than other marines,

 

Your missing the whole angelic noble side of our background, the Angels of Death moniker fits us better than any other chapter due to the combination of our Angelic side combined with our flaws. At the start of Dante the blood Angels risk themselves to retrieve the remnants of the guard, we're not the only chapter who would do this but there are many who would not. We have a hopeful positive side to us that believes things can be changed for the better, this is influenced by the flaws showing us our own failings and bringing us a humility not shared by many chapters.

 

We have a culture of our own different than the standard marine. The twin flaws have influenced and changed our culture but they didn't create it. Even the way we create marines is only done by our bloodline.

 

Look at how different the flesh tearers are from the Blood Angels, both suffer the Flaw but their cultures are very different.

 

If you removed the flaws, what's left will still be unique, we may share individual traits with others but the combination would be unique to us. Unique enough that without the flaws we could be folded into the Marine book and have our own traits and stratagems.

 

If you can't see that I don't know what to say to you, your viewpoint is so far removed from mine it's as incomprehensible to me as mine seems to be to you. Maybe when forgeworld realeses our Heresy book that will help.

[Arkangilos]

The nobility of an angel is a counter drive to the thirst. They care about the nobility to make themselves feel better about it. But even then, there are numerous in universe examples of Inquisitors thinking the entire chapter is made up of madmen and are but a single step from from damnation. They don't get that reputation from the thirst not permeating in everything they do.

 

Heck, even in Dante they explain that the art is simply a measure taken to control it.

[Arkangilos]

"However, tales abound of their blood thirsty exploits and stories of the dark Flaw which mars them. Few know the whole truth or realize the inner pain and anguish that drives the Blood Angels into battle with a righteous fury that few others can match" codex BA third edition, page 2.

 

"Say what you like. I will not fight alongside these madmen the past proves nothing, except that the Blood Angels are cursed and but a single step from damnation" Brother Captain Yuron, codex BA third edition, p. 4

 

 

I'll find more from other codices later

[TheHarrower]

 

I don't understand how people don't think we are the red thirst chapter. The flaw is literally the only thing that makes the Blood Angels who they are. Their entire culture, their strategies, their being is all built around it. It's been that way since the beginning.

Without it we literally are no different than any other chapter.

Then I feel sorry for you. The thirst is an important part of our lore, the struggle against it informs every aspect of our being. But it doesn't exist in a vacume. The Blood Angels are so much more than that. First there is our love of art, this is used as a way to combat the thirst but predates widespread knowledge of the thirst, we were the shock and awe Legion before our flaws were a factor, there's our love of flying, a legacy of our Primarch unrelated to the Flaws. We produce more psykers than the average chapter, were longer lived than other marines,

 

Your missing the whole angelic noble side of our background, the Angels of Death moniker fits us better than any other chapter due to the combination of our Angelic side combined with our flaws. At the start of Dante the blood Angels risk themselves to retrieve the remnants of the guard, we're not the only chapter who would do this but there are many who would not. We have a hopeful positive side to us that believes things can be changed for the better, this is influenced by the flaws showing us our own failings and bringing us a humility not shared by many chapters.

 

We have a culture of our own different than the standard marine. The twin flaws have influenced and changed our culture but they didn't create it. Even the way we create marines is only done by our bloodline.

 

Look at how different the flesh tearers are from the Blood Angels, both suffer the Flaw but their cultures are very different.

 

If you removed the flaws, what's left will still be unique, we may share individual traits with others but the combination would be unique to us. Unique enough that without the flaws we could be folded into the Marine book and have our own traits and stratagems.

 

If you can't see that I don't know what to say to you, your viewpoint is so far removed from mine it's as incomprehensible to me as mine seems to be to you. Maybe when forgeworld realeses our Heresy book that will help.

 

 

Great post. This is the type of stuff our Codex writer should be looking at for inspiration.

 

The nobility of an angel is a counter drive to the thirst. They care about the nobility to make themselves feel better about it. But even then, there are numerous in universe examples of Inquisitors thinking the entire chapter is made up of madmen and are but a single step from from damnation. They don't get that reputation from the thirst not permeating in everything they do. 

 

 

I get what you are saying, but we are a lot more than that. There are tons of quotes like this, but those are all slanted toward this being a wargame and about endless war. You aren't going to find quotes on say something like the Blood Angels loving pottery. It just doesn't fit with what the Codexes are trying to do. 

[pandion40]

I said in my post the thirst informs every aspect of our being, that's not where we disagree. You said it's all that makes us different, that's what we disagree on.

 

Dante said the art is used as a way to control the thirst, but that's not all it is. Even in the Crusade art was important to the Blood Angels. Long before the flaws. Our love of art was redirected not created to combat the flaws. It existed well before. It's the same for most of our other background. The flaws changed and redirected aspects of our culture, raised some in importance reduced others and just redirected some. But it created little.

 

Our Shock and awe tactics, love of art, the ritual importance of blood, hell even the fact we're the best looking marines all predate the flaw.

 

Also I'd argue the biggest negative result of our flaws isn't a direct effect on one battle, it's the replacement of an experienced trained marine good for centuries of war with a madman good for one or two battles. That madman could have a much bigger impact on the few battles he fights than the marine he replaced but it doesn't make up for the centuries of war that marine could have taken part in.

 

In conclusion I agree the flaws are massively important for us, it's vital they get them correct, but it's not all we are. There are other important parts of our background that need some attention to.

 

As for your desire for a negative effect in the rules to represent the flaw I'm open to ideas but I'm not a fan of to many extra roles or anything that would discourage certain units. I remember past armies of various factions where many people just planed their armies to reduce the negative effects to little or nothing. I don't want another factor reducing the variety of armies I see

[Blindhamster]

Shock and Awe is the emperors design for the blood angels, and they were that before the red thirst had begun to be anything more than very rare isolated cases. Our ferocity is important, the red thirst just pushes that beyond even our normal doctrines.

 

The struggle against the flaws is a huge part of the character of the Blood Angels, but it isn't the only thing. Forgeworld rules do a good job of showing more of our combat abilities and tactics outside of just pure red thirst, hell, even Angels Blade started to explore it too, just didn't translate too well into rules.

[Arkangilos]

Yeah I think there is a disconnect here. I'm not saying all we have is the flaw, but since everything is derivative of our flaw, without it we wouldn't have it.

 

Also, our flaw existed during the GC, it just wasn't as bad. Plus we know Sanguinius set up aspects of the legion to take into account the onset of the flaw (he founded the priesthood).

 

My biggest thing is that we know exactly what the chapter is supposed to be, as does GW. It's supposed to be a vampiric chapter of Angels that don't want to be vampires, but lose control to the flaw, and are a dying chapter because of it. We know that they want to be better than they are, an we know that the flaw makes them crazy in combat (both literally and the more metaphorical power house). We know this because ALL of the lore tells us this. The problem is that, like I said, the they can't translate that without pissing people off or nerfing it. If you include a downside you can boost the effects to what they should be. If not you have to give it crap rules.

[Panzer]

but since everything is derivative of our flaw, without it we wouldn't have it.

It's not tho. Many things of what makes the Blood Angels the Blood Angels existed before the flaw manifested as strongly as we know it. That's what we've been trying to tell you for the past 7 or so posts.

The flaw is just the cherry on top. The thing everybody notices about BA at first and the easiest thing to focus on. However without the flaw they'd still be Blood Angels ... just less tragic.