RG Vanguard Veteran armourment in 8th

[LutherMax]

I'm planning to build a couple of Vanguard Veteran squads for my upcoming Raptors project. I've never run them before (my other army is Blood Angels where they compete with Death Company and Sanguinary Guard), so I'm looking for thoughts on the various options (of which there seem to be many!)

 

I like the idea of shields - I think they could be very useful. And maybe power swords or lightning claws - but I'm open to advice and experiences you guys have had.

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited August 28, 2017 by LutherMax

[Lemondish]

Sorry, this post won't be very informative on what's competitive or efficient.

 

I will say, though, that dual lightning claws is like right up there in super badass looking fluffy Raven Guard options. I mean, have you seen the Dark Furies from FW? I'm totally going to use those as my VV some day...

 

In conclusion, dual LC because rule of cool.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Lemondish

[Damo1701]

Don't forget dual LC give not only +1 attack, but rerolls to wound without a CM/Lieutenant needing to be close by.

 

I have 10 Dark Furies primes already to use as Vanguard Veterans,

 

I also have a 5-man squad with various armourments, but they never really do much, so I figured 31 attacks following Shrike for overwatch-blocking goodness, means they should shred whatever they hit rather badly.

[LutherMax]

Ooh they do look shiny... and I like shiny! But they are perhaps a bit too ostentatious for Raptors. I'm doing the whole toned down, unadorned, utilitarian thing with them - so my VV will actually be made from assault marines and weapons from the VV kit.

 

Dual claws is still an option, and does indeed look cool, but with all the -AP weapons around I really like the idea of shields from a defensive point of view.

[Race Bannon]

Go for that!  I've said it elsewhere, but the Raptors are known for their pragmatism.  They will use whatever it takes to get the job done efficiently and accurately.  Double LC is certainly follows the Rule of Cool and has been a Raven Guard "thing".  But the Raptors, being 2nd Founding, have had several millennia to figure out how they do things for their needs.

 

So, if shields are what they use, then they do.

 

^_^

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

The debate on VV loadout tends to be THSS vs claws.  Im starting to think claws are just straight up better in most cases.  Unless your meta is a pure tank spam claws are going to be better.  

 

The -1 to hit on hammers coupled with the dangers of relying on close combat for anti vehicle is not a good combo for raven guard imo.  If you want to take out vehicles or big stuff, lascannons are terrific and can be spammed all over the place.  You can have 1 lascannon in every tac squad, in dev squads, on vehicles.  Have your vets kill infantry with claws.  They cost less, hit more reliably and are efficient against more targets.

 

SG Highlight Reel, Lascannon Edition:  I had a game a few days ago where I caught my opponents warlord in a bad spot.  He got vaped by 2 lascannons.  It was glorious seeing a smoldering pile of ashes where a space marine captain used to be.   

[Filius]

I love shields!  Eversince my Earthdawn days, I held them up in high regard, because of a story in the Adepts Way Source Book, I roughly summarize here. There were two good friends, a warrior and a swordmaster , which wanted to kill a dragon. The Dragon was amused by their attempt and offered them two gifts: The sword, that always hit and a shield that never broke. The warrior let the swordmaster  choose, because she was humble in person. The swordmaster chose the sword of course and so the warrior took up the shield. When the swordmaster attacked the Dragon, he was killed instantly by the flaming breath of the mighty beast. The Warrior hid behind the shield and wasn't harmed and the Dragon said to her "It is foolish to take a sword when you can take a shield. If one lunges and misses, one is not harmed. But if one is struck and has no shield, one is doomed.” But the the Warrior picked up the sword of his dead friend and killed the Dragon …

 

… so go for shields!

[LutherMax]

Interesting... thanks for the input!

 

So is shield plus a single claw a viable thing, or am I wasting the claw to a certain extent by not having two? I could magnetise the arms I suppose, but the models can be fiddly with both arms magnetised...

[Gulltramarine]

Interesting... thanks for the input!

 

So is shield plus a single claw a viable thing, or am I wasting the claw to a certain extent by not having two? I could magnetise the arms I suppose, but the models can be fiddly with both arms magnetised...

 

 

That would be a waste imo. Dual LCs really are the best. Thunder hammers are too unpredictable and have too low an output to be worth their points. Pair them up with a storm shield and you're adding 21 points to an already expensive model for a guy that can be killed easily enough by a bolt pistol and can only kill 2 models maximum. If you want something with a high multiple damage output, go plasma pistol and chainsword. You get the +1 attack for dealing with hordes, a really strong 12" shot that will reliably kill 1 wound models, and an overcharged option that will vapourize larger stuff. Keep a captain with jump pack around to reroll those ones.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Gulltramarine

[Mileposter]

Honorable mention in defense of using Storm Shields with Vanguard Veterans.

 

There's a lot of "This is the BEST" tossed around with unit loadouts that comes with a bit of a misconception, I feel - especially with a unit as versatile as Vanguard Veterans. What's 'best' really depends on how you intend to use your Veterans and what role they play in your army. If your Veterans are there for Turn 1 drop charges, clearing out enemy troops? Double LC's all the way. If they're there as Lord of War hunters? Thunder Hammer might be your best bet. The important thing is to equip them so that they accomplish the goal you have for them.

 

For myself, to use anecdotal evidence, I run my Vanguard Veterans with Power Swords and Storm Shields. My list already has loads of MEQ clearing and several good high-wound solutions, but it's largely vehicle based so my Vats are dedicated to removing special weapons from the enemy. Special/heavy weapons can be found on all sorts of units so my Vets needed to be well-ruonded all-takers that could survive tying something up but also be a legitimate threat. Storm Shields help them survive overwatch or dedicated fire from the big targets they're charging down, and the Power Sword helps tear through even the TEQ targets. Cheaper than Double Lightning Claws to boot. For me, this combo has worked better than the other suggestions in the thread so far, because it synergizes better with the rest of my army.

 

So that's my advice in a nutshell: Consider what you intend to do, then give them the weapons that do that. It'll also help us here give more targeted suggestions!

[Gulltramarine]

Honorable mention in defense of using Storm Shields with Vanguard Veterans.

 

There's a lot of "This is the BEST" tossed around with unit loadouts that comes with a bit of a misconception, I feel - especially with a unit as versatile as Vanguard Veterans. What's 'best' really depends on how you intend to use your Veterans and what role they play in your army. If your Veterans are there for Turn 1 drop charges, clearing out enemy troops? Double LC's all the way. If they're there as Lord of War hunters? Thunder Hammer might be your best bet. The important thing is to equip them so that they accomplish the goal you have for them.

 

For myself, to use anecdotal evidence, I run my Vanguard Veterans with Power Swords and Storm Shields. My list already has loads of MEQ clearing and several good high-wound solutions, but it's largely vehicle based so my Vats are dedicated to removing special weapons from the enemy. Special/heavy weapons can be found on all sorts of units so my Vets needed to be well-ruonded all-takers that could survive tying something up but also be a legitimate threat. Storm Shields help them survive overwatch or dedicated fire from the big targets they're charging down, and the Power Sword helps tear through even the TEQ targets. Cheaper than Double Lightning Claws to boot. For me, this combo has worked better than the other suggestions in the thread so far, because it synergizes better with the rest of my army.

 

So that's my advice in a nutshell: Consider what you intend to do, then give them the weapons that do that. It'll also help us here give more targeted suggestions!

 

 

Yeah, that's good advice. A unit of vans with storm shields is resilient and good for holding down objectives. Very susceptible to rapid fire and smite though

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

There's a lot of "This is the BEST" tossed around with unit loadouts that comes with a bit of a misconception, I feel - especially with a unit as versatile as Vanguard Veterans. What's 'best' really depends on how you intend to use your Veterans and what role they play in your army. 

 

This doesn't make sense.  Just because someone intends to use a unit a certain way doesnt make it "best" or optimal or even mediocre.  Over a year ago I had this idea that if I put an eviscerator on a assault marine sarge it would be anti armour.  It was anti armour too!  I just never killed a single vehicle in any game although it was EPIC at cutting regular marines in half.  I intended my assault marine sarge to go around carving up tanks... it never did.  Now that example is your logic taken to an extreme but it does illustrate why what you are saying doesn't help much for optimal list construction.  Vanguard Vets are just not very good at anti "big".  If you give them THSS they can and will kill some tanks in your games but the cost is ridiculous compared to other options.  THSS vets will also attract a lot of attention and not the kind of attention that storm shields will save you from.  

[Lemondish]

I think Pentharion is right. No one plays 40K as a cold mathematical exercise, so if you like some of the supposedly "weaker" options, go ahead and use them. Just know that their effectiveness will likely be impacted by how they're used much moreso than with the "best" choice. You should be just as happy with your sword and board vets, or the chainsword wielding mini-sun spewing ones. What's touted as best is usually just to give people a clearer idea of how to equip the unit in such a way that it will more readily, in most situations, make an impact without much babysitting. Everything deemed "weaker" will still kill things, you just may have to face new challenges that urge you to take a different approach, just as Pentharion implied. The fact that THSS vets get focused is one of those challenges, but it doesn't completely invalidate the option. Edited August 29, 2017 by Lemondish

[Mileposter]

 

There's a lot of "This is the BEST" tossed around with unit loadouts that comes with a bit of a misconception, I feel - especially with a unit as versatile as Vanguard Veterans. What's 'best' really depends on how you intend to use your Veterans and what role they play in your army.

 

This doesn't make sense.  Just because someone intends to use a unit a certain way doesnt make it "best" or optimal or even mediocre.  Over a year ago I had this idea that if I put an eviscerator on a assault marine sarge it would be anti armour.  It was anti armour too!  I just never killed a single vehicle in any game although it was EPIC at cutting regular marines in half.  I intended my assault marine sarge to go around carving up tanks... it never did.  Now that example is your logic taken to an extreme but it does illustrate why what you are saying doesn't help much for optimal list construction.  Vanguard Vets are just not very good at anti "big".  If you give them THSS they can and will kill some tanks in your games but the cost is ridiculous compared to other options.  THSS vets will also attract a lot of attention and not the kind of attention that storm shields will save you from.

 

"Just because someone intends to use a unit a certain way doesn't make it best or optimal or even mediocre" - This is exactly what I was saying. We are in agreement. Versatile units like Vanguard Veterans don't have a singular 'best', because they can perform many roles. The end judge of a units effectiveness isn't solely 'how many wounds can it cause in a single turn' because no unit performs in a vacuum. Mathhammer cannot account for positioning and battlefield tactics!

[Claws and Effect]

I mentioned it in another thread, but I kind of like the idea of plasma pistols and power lances.

 

As a thematic choice for a chapter based on shrikes (the actual bird, not Kayvaan). They impale their prey on thorns because they lack talons to hold them in place while they eat them. Figured they could impale their prey with power lances, and then shoot whatever doesn't die.

[Lemondish]

I mentioned it in another thread, but I kind of like the idea of plasma pistols and power lances.

 

As a thematic choice for a chapter based on shrikes (the actual bird, not Kayvaan). They impale their prey on thorns because they lack talons to hold them in place while they eat them. Figured they could impale their prey with power lances, and then shoot whatever doesn't die.

That would be SWEET.

[Mileposter]

I mentioned it in another thread, but I kind of like the idea of plasma pistols and power lances.

 

As a thematic choice for a chapter based on shrikes (the actual bird, not Kayvaan). They impale their prey on thorns because they lack talons to hold them in place while they eat them. Figured they could impale their prey with power lances, and then shoot whatever doesn't die.

...  ... This imagery seems appropriately terrifying for 40k.

[LutherMax]

More interesting food for thought!

 

I agree with Pentharian that the "best" loadout can only be weighed against a certain purpose or target unit – the problem is that we rarely know exactly what we'll be facing or what circumstances our units will find themselves in. That's why it's so tricky trying to decide with units as versatile as Vets (and why these threads come up so often )

 

I guess that's why I was originally leaning towards sword & shied – it seemed like the good 'all rounder' choice.

 

 

Loadout can be mixed within units of course, which complicates things even further!

 

Maybe magnets really are the way to go!

[Race Bannon]

OR ... make more model and swap out as needed.  Magnets will save time and space though, I suppose.

[Gulltramarine]

I think the main thing is to ensure it only has one main purpose. The variety of loadouts available to a vanguard detachment can encourage a lot of mixing and matching and trying to make something that's all purpose. In my experience, this just makes it weak against everything. Want something to grind hordes? Lightning claws. Want something to bash heavies? Thunder hammers. A squad needs to be good against its intended target, diluting it will make ineffective

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

While I am loathe to continue the discussion to a degree (as this question/thread has got to be at "Dead Horse" status for us by now on this subforum), I think there are a few key points to address when it comes to Vanguard Veterans that anyone using them should consider, specifically the relationships between these facts:

 

1) Durability and Cost: They are Space marines after all, and some thought needs to be given for how much we want to invest in the unit, and how long we expect it to live. My personal rule of thumb is never smaller than 8-Man units, and with drops/deployment and combat squads being buffed in 8th Edition, I am leaning towards 10-Man units. If you have any expectations of the unit other than disruption, they will need the extra bodies to keep going and delivering the damage.

 

2) Loadout and Cost: In a perfect world (which 40k will never be), in terms of balance, there is no "bad" weapon choice, theoretically, if the game is balanced well. That being said there two hands, and two choices to be made. I think a better consideration is how to pair up and load out units to still pose a threat without breaking the bank. I am more inclined to steer the conversation to things like "how many storm shields do I need to survive in a typical situation?" or "whats the validity of bringing Plasma Pistols in addition to melee weapons?" or "why are melta bombs so fething awful in 8th edition?"

 

3) Economy and Cost: With the point adjustments to Lightning Claws, Power Fists, and Thunder Hammers, there is definitely some discussion to be had about what is most optimal for the intended delivery method. Its apparent that due to the changes in cost of the aforementioned items, balance may come into question. By changing the costs (lowering them), GW is admitting that at least the Index pricing was over-costed. I would agree with that assessment. I could see a strong argument to be made for them still being over-costed. The humble power sword (and maul) pull some serious work for a meagre 4 points, and it stands to reason that 3-4 times that in cost for more damage or more strength may not be an efficient use of points.

[White Hunter]

As has been said here a few times I think the key is defining what you want the unit to do. I am actually building a Count-As Raptors army myself at the moment and have gone with 5 VV with TH+SS. This is my counter assault and big game hunting unit (paired with a Chaplain and Librarian) in an army that includes a lot of Shooting from Sternguard, Lascannon Dreads, and Hellblasters. I have thought about tooling it out with Dual LC to deal with lower toughness squads however the lack of numbers and durability (I would only pick up one or two guy and would lose storm shields) pushed me against doing it. Additionally, I also thought about using them solo with Plasma Pistols as a harassment unit and objective clearer, but again the squad size just made it impractical.

[Claws and Effect]

On my current squad I'm all over the place. For theme rather than optimal loadout.

 

In my Raven Guard the Vanguard Vets spend time as assault squad sergeants before getting promoted to the 1st Company. As such, I felt each individual would be more effective using the same weapons he's been using for decades.

 

Sarge has relic blade and shield. The rest of the squad is axe/shield, fist/shield, and 2 twin claws.

 

I'm working on having enough twin claw dudes for a whole squad of them. I'm not a big fan of hammers in a Raven Guard army. They just don't feel right.

[duz_]

Based on my experience thus far in 8th I like my mixed load out

It does work against my friends GK paladins too! :D

• Sgt w/ TH + SS
• PF + BP
• 2x Dual LCs
• PS + SS

Admittedly the power sword should be a maul or axe, however I like the sword visually, despite in action its always the worst performer!

This gives me great flexibility in targets, I also haven't found the -1 to hit much of an issue on the TH since I get D:3 when I wound.

Then again I'm a guardsmen at heart so WS4+ to me is normal! ;)

Edited August 29, 2017 by duz_

[Claws and Effect]

What's BS stand for?