Help me understand Primaris logistics.

[UnkyHamHam]

Greetings Brothers and Sisters!  I haven't made any posts yet since 8th dropped. This will be a long one.  Apologies in advance. Till now I have been trying to wrap my head around our new Primaris marines and how they fit in to the grand scheme of things.  After reading a lot of threads here on the topic, doing research on the wikis, and studying the codex and novels...   I have to say GW has left things far too ambiguous for my liking.  This isn't a topic about whether we should have gotten Primaris, or if Guilliman and Cawl should have or could have produced them.  Or even if they are incorruptable, have any biological flaws, or are just Astartes plus one...   This is a topic about how they fit into existing Chapter command structures, whether they serve a purpose, and more importantly, if they can even operate effectively (or at all) sans classic Astartes.  Currently I'm not seeing them make much sense. Hopefully new fluff in the coming months and years will be able to sort out these issues.  Or maybe even the discussion here can bring light to my thoughts.  Maybe I just don't get it.

 

1.  Integration into existing Astartes Chapter order of battle.

 

First you have ask yourself, what is better about the Primaris Marines?  Their enhancements broadly fall into 3 categories in my opinion:  Physique, Weapons/Armor, and Vehicles.  We will tackle them one at a time.  

 

So the Primaris Astartes have a superior physique. Got those extra organs that make em bigger and badder. This makes them tougher and fight harder in close quarters (+1 W/+1 A). Yet in all of Guilliman's near Emperor wisdom, he chooses to equip them primarily for ranged combat.  Not a single Primaris marine wields the ubiquitous Chainsword that is one of the hallmarks of being a space marine.  Officers aside, only the Intercessor sarge manages to use a Power Sword.  Again Officer's aside, only the the Aggressors use Power Fists. These are not rare weapons.  The Astra Militarum issues these to sergeants, veterans, and close combat specialists all the time.  They are some of the most common weapons in the galaxy! Even classic Astartes have these weapons in abundancy enough to give out all manner of Chainswords and Power Weapons to their sergeants and close quarters specialists.  Its the classic way to leverage a marine's post human body over heretics, xenos, and traitors. By taking the fight to them up close and personal. They even get more exotic weapons like Lightning Claws, Chainfists, Thunder Hammers, and Relic Blades.  So naturally you'd want your tougher and more fightier Primaris Marines to get all manner access to these weapons.  I mean they can use them better! But no...  You get a few swords and some knives on Rievers. Aggressors are the only ones doing this right.  If anything Vanguard Veterans should give up their access to these weapons to Primaris. Heck, Cawl should have been developing new Chainswords and Power Weapons for these guys over slightly hotter plasma weaponry...  

 

Which segues into Weapons and Armor nicely.  Why was so much effort spent on developing new Bolters and plasma weapons, but then purposely withheld from classic Astartes formations?  These guys should be more than capable of operating Bolt rifles and Auto Bolt rifles.  They should also be able to use at least the two lighter variants of the Hellblaster weapons.  You could only make two solid counter arguments here.  The first is that the new weapon tech only syncs with their shiny new Mk X power armor.  Ok, that is kind of a writing cop out, and poor planning on Cawl's part, but ok.  The other is that the new weapon tech is too bulky/unwieldy for classic Astartes.  Well this really doesn't make much sense if you have seen a marine with a Heavy weapon.  Classic Devastator heavy weaponry is far larger and unwieldier looking than anything that a Primaris marine carries.  Not counting Gravis equipped marines of course (i.e. Inceptors and Aggressors).  

 

Which brings us to Armor. These segues are working out nicely haha. This one is easy and simple to me, and somewhat the least offensive in my eyes due to necessity.  Classic Astartes have a long history of Power Armor use.  Its kind of their thing. They have tons of variants and modifications of power armor.  They even have heavy specialist suits of it like Terminator armor and Centurion warsuits. Ultimately though, ANY classic Astartes can don ANY variant of Power Armor.  Yes they require permission and training, and perhaps fancy rituals.  But its physically possible.  You have a supply of men, and you have a supply of armor. Now the Primaris bring on new problems.  You now have apparently a growing supply of big men, which need big armor.  And a dwindling supply of littler big men, which have a plentiful (relatively speaking) supply of little armor that is useless to the big men.  Including centuries worth of variants, modifications, specialists suits, and revered relic plate.  It just became harder to maintain a hybrid classic/Primaris chapter. Logistically speaking.  There isn't even anything wrong with the current lot of classic power armor and its variants.  It still does the Emperor's work, and has been for 10k years.  But once Chapters have a majority of Primaris marines, all this revered and capable wargear will just rot in an armory, waiting for Huron or someone to pillage it.  But as I said, this is the thing that bothers me the least.  Since we have big marines now, we need big armor.  More on this later.  

 

On to the Vehicle rant.  I mean this one is tough, as I know we are limited by GW's ability to make models.  I mean the classic Astartes line started with roughly the same thing.  A Dread and Rhino.  It is ok when you are thinking in terms of hybrid chapters.  The Repulsor will just transport the Primaris, and when they get mortally injured they get entombed into a Redemptor.  But there are a few issues.  The Repulsor is the ONLY way to transport Primaris besides a Thunderhawk. Repulsors are needed to perform the duties of the Rhino, Razorback, Land Raider and variants, Drop Pod, and Storm Raven/Storm Eagle.  Right off the bat, classic Astartes win in flying colors the mobility and flexibility in deployment game. This isn't even including Bikes, Jump Packs, and Teleportation at their disposal.  Remember, 10k years has been spent coming up with brutal, creative, and efficient ways of delivering these phychotic gene-hanced murder machines to humanity's foes.  Cawl thought he could just wrap it up nicely into one jack of all trades catch-all Repulsor tank.  This should seem silly enough without further explanation.  I will just leave one note on this.  The Land Raider is more armored, and roughly just as armed, and mostly likely less advanced in terms of difficulty to build.  Yet the Imperium's finest still manage to find and need alternative means of transport and support.  As for the Redemptor, I will be lenient here.  There is nothing in the Codex that says it HAS to have a Primaris marine interred.  Though if it does, that would be dumb.  Firstly, it says in the Codex that the advanced systems tend to burn out the pilot interred rather quickly as they weren't designed with longevity and health of the pilot in mind.  So right there, you'd rather be burning up those classic marines rather than your bigger biologically superior Primaris marines.  Secondly, as i've always understood it, you really only need a brain and maybe a spine/brain stem to be interred into a dreadnought.  So it should theoretically not care what kind of marine is interred.  I mean the technology pre-exists marines and used to be used on regular humans in the Dark Age. This is also kind of dumb in the reverse as well with older pattern chassis.  It doesn't say, but I sure hope that Primaris marines can be interred into the classic and specialist Dreadnoughts for the same reason above.  We've seen that Custodes can be in Contemptors.  So why not Primaris?  But this is another case of ambiguity and not fact.  Just trying to reason things out.  So this takes us to part 2.

 

2.  Ultima Founding Chapter logistics.

 

How are these Primaris only Chapters even operating??  They have a fraction of the tools and options available to a classic Astartes staffed Chapter.  They lack the ridiculous level of of adaptability, flexibility, versatility, and redundancy that the classic Codex Astartes built into these marvelous fighting forces over the centuries. Strategies, tactics, and doctrine put in place by ancient Captains and Chapter Masters, Primarchs, and Big E himself over millennia! I mean pretty much everyone in an Ultima Founding Chapter is carrying either a Bolter variant or plasma variant weapon.  They don't even have basic Imperial weapons tech of Melta, Missile, and Las at their disposal!  You toss in a couple basic Power Swords, a few Flamestorm Gauntlets, and some fancy gadgets like Aux grenade launchers and grapple guns...  and you got yourself a nice half-baked Primaris fighting force.  They can only deploy by Thunderhawk or Repulsor.  I'm not even sure how they ship in their dreads without Ravens or Pods.  Inceptors and Rievers are the only units to use tactics that resemble anything close to classic Astartes shock and awe doctrine.  Aggressors are like worse Centurions that have even less armor, less weapon options, and less transport options.  But hey they shoot AND fight at the same time!  That's cool I guess.  Terminators do that. Their organization methods and order of battle also doesn't make sense. They are trying to fight like the Legions but with the manpower of a Chapter, and the logistics of neither!

 

The only viable strategy I can see Ultima Chapters pulling off is something akin to a super Rhino rush.  Just load up Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Aggressors into your scores of Repulsors that you would need, and blitz the enemy.  Using Rievers and Inceptors to harass, hold flanks, and break up enemy strong points in support.  And hope that the Redemptors are keeping pace in the back haha.  These guys can't perform a classic Planetfall (Stehl Reighn) without Pods, Ravens, Jump packs, and Teleportation.  Inceptors and Rievers alone are NOT equipped for this.  They really can't perform sieges either. They have no artillery like Thunderfires or Whirlwinds.  No breaching equipment like Ironclads, Vindicators, or Centurions. God-Emperor forbid a single Meltagun. They cannot even provide their formations with adequate air cover without Storm Talons, Storm Hawks, or even Hunters and Stalkers.  Heck, they don't even have access to your basic guardsman's Missile Launcher with a flak missile.  So far their isn't even evidence that they have Techmarines to maintain any of their "high-tech" Cawl gear, much less the classic stuff. They cannot even effectively do Zone Mortalis style void combat and boarding operations without flyers, pods, and teleportation!  They lost the "space" in Space Marines.

 

I just don't see how these guys are getting anything done.  I'm sure a Primaris marine can fight twice as many foes as a classic marine with that better body.  However, he is part of an inferior organization with overall inferior equipment.  Worst of all is the pseudo Legion squad arming structure.  The fact that every Primaris marine in every unit has to take the exact same load out exacerbates these problems even more!  This rigid structure stifles their flexibility to a breaking point.  The whole reason Chapters gave up this structure is because they lacked the numbers to use it effectively.  They needed flexibility built directly into their smallest units so that they didn't spread themselves thin.  Combat squad doctrine helps this too.  Legions didn't need to combat squad.  They deployed in huge formations and were more like the Guard.  Chapters are more special forces and rely on speed, shock tactics, and lots of force enhancers to apply pressure to the enemy's perceived weak points. Legions could overwhelm them with attrition tactics and massive formations.  Even 10 Chapters combined don't even equal the manpower and equipment most Legions had available in their hay day.  Ultima Chapters just simply cannot sustain these doctrines and strategies.  At best they can bully the enemy with big men and cool Bolters and tanks until a classic Chapter arrives with all the toys, options, experience, and solutions.  

 

3.  Can Primaris marines serve a purpose?

 

As I lay awake contemplating all these oversights, I ask myself, can I fix it?  I say yes.  There are ways to fix this.  Though I'm not sure GW can now that the damage is done.  However, I can try to offer solutions. Solutions that I will head canon into my homebrew Chapter.  Its all I can do at this point.  

 

My first and immediate thought is that Ultima Founding Chapters do not work.  I love the idea, but if one just simply stops and thinks about it for a second, you will see how little sense this makes.  Now, If GW expands the model range, and amps up the fluff so that these guys suddenly have the numbers and options to operate using their intended doctrines...  then I will rethink this.  Until then, I simply cannot believe all the writers of GW ok'd this. So now we have only hybrid Chapters.

 

Now we need to simultaneously do away with the Legion style equipment structure and rethink the unit organization. Hellblasters and Intercessors need consolidated into a single unit with all their weapon choices except maybe the big plasma weapon.  We will call them Intercessors since Hellblaster is silly. They then need more flexibility in their weapon options.  These are big and bad Primaris Marines and will be the mainstay of our new fighting force.  So they are Troops.  They have all 3 bolter options in any combo across the squad. 2 marines per 5 may take any Hellblaster plasma weapon.  1 per 5 can get the Aux launcher.  They should also be able to sub out their Bolters for Chainswords.  Especially for Templars!  And lastly, give the sarge the full range of options.  Now you have a very flexible Codex style squad that can leverage either its new tech at range or its new physique in combat.  But not too powerful at either.  And still more expensive with one transport option to keep Tacs and Scouts useful and viable.  

 

Next we deal with the Gravis equipped Primaris marines.  Inceptors are nearly fine.  The simply need one thing.  A close combat variant.  And its easy!  Give them swaps for dual Boltstorm/Flamestorm Gauntlets like Aggressors.  Then to compensate this right back give dual Assault Bolters and Plasmas to Aggressors.  Aggressors move to Heavy Support and always have the launcher mounted on top.  And here is the kicker, they can upgrade the launcher to the Heavy Hellblaster plasma variant.  So you will have fast moving Inceptors with actual close combat options in Fast Attack...  and heavy slow Aggressors with legit firepower or cheaper close quarters equipment in Heavy Support. If you don't like both units having access to both ranged and melee weapons, then I would suggest just a straight swap.  Inceptors getting the Boltstorm/Flamerstorm combo, while Aggressors get the Assault Bolters standard with the plasma upgrade.

 

Repulsor is just fine.  Redemptor simply needs the notation that any marine can be interred and I call it good.

 

Rievers are weird. Nothing about them says that only Primaris can perform their role.  Their entire niche is based on tactics and equipment.  But if we want to keep them Primaris due to their lighter Mk X plate and their option for grav chutes then I suggest up equipping them a bit better.  They need a sergeant that has access to combat gear.  They are elites and performing a highly elite task.  So they should have Vet style equipment options. Heavy pistols can be swapped for Plasma pistols and knives swapped for Power Weapons.  Carbines are a fine option.  I'd call them good their.  They are then your elite super scouts that throw out stealth for pure aggression and fear.  

 

I think with those changes the Primaris can actually not only perform a multitude of tasks for which I'm sure they were intended, but also adequately supplement they classic Chapter lineup!  

 

I can't believe I've been typing this for 2 hours.  I'm gonna stop here just to save my own sanity.  Please, be as harsh as you want in your replies. 

Edited September 2, 2017 by UnkyHamHam

[Blindhamster]

simply put - the reason Primaris marines are not viable stand alone in games currently, is because they've made an effort to ensure there is a place for both primaris and standard astartes.

As far as lore goes, we don't know what other units and machines they have access to, because GW will keep quiet about it till they release a model for the most part.

 

 

 

in terms of the existing stuff, there isn't anything that says only primaris can be interred in redemptors, the only known redemptor is the first primaris ultramarine to have fallen. But Presumably anyone could be interred in it.

 

theres no reason the individual units need mixed loadouts, didn't happen during the heresy and it worked just fine. It also works just fine gameplay wise.

 

I'd agree that sergeants and characters across the board could do with more options.

I've said it a few times lately, but i think we'll see more primaris units over the next 12-24 months. There is apparently a super heavy primaris grav tank in the works from forgeworld for example. Someone mentioned recently that they got a slightly cryptic response about primaris terminators, and I asked Jes about close combat primaris back at fest and he said he'd probably make a close combat unit with heavier armour - so i don't think it was referring to the reivers!! And Aggressors aren't a close combat unit.

 

I'm hoping we may also see the overlord flyer from forgeworld too (speaking of, primaris can go in thunderhawks and storm birds with no issue btw - so they have that as a method of insertion too).

Edited September 1, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Boldthreat]

I am going to start with I agree with your initial point in that the new Primaris Lore is not as fleshed out as it should be.  We have no idea how Primaris only Chapters organize currently... we are left to our imaginations on how these chapters organize their 1st Company, Reserve Companies and their Scout Company... Techmarines are currently MIA but are almost assuredly in...  and are their units we have not seen yet?  All valid and frustrating questions that should have been answered in the latest Codex.  Their implementation comes off as kind of lazy in that regard.  

 

But I would like to respectfully disagree with your assertion regarding the logistical viability of the Primaris and their equipment.

 

The first and most important thing is not just a bigger marine.  1 regular Primaris Space Marine is equal to 2 normal Space Marines.  That in itself is a huge logistical increase.  What a Space Marine Chapter could accomplish with 100 Marines, a Primaris Chapter can accomplish with 50.  What a Space Marine Chapter can accomplish with a Demi-Company, a Primaris Chapter can accomplish with a quarter of their companies organization.  This becomes absolutely critical when you introduce the roughly 1000 man limit that the Codex Astartes places on the Adeptus Astartes.  What this means is before we even talk about equipment, a Primaris Only Chapter is twice as effective as a Regular Chapter.  

 

The next point is Geneseed quality.  It is a fact that the Primaris geneseed is better and devoid of the flaws that plagued many of the Chapters such as the Raven Guard, Imperial Fists and others.  These genelines have seen their geneseed not just restored to what they were, but further perfected with the additional 3 organs.  The ramifications of this are huge as well, even more so for the Chapters like the Crimson Fists, Marines Errant and Scythes of the Emperor who were already disastrously close to being out of the older, more problematic stuff.  With over 90+ of the Imperial Space Marine Chapters accepting the new Primaris and their Geneseed... this is a truly miraculous turn of events.  It has literally allowed these Chapters to survive the End Times.

 

I also think that the current Primaris line up, and what we saw in Dark Imperium, paints a perfectly fine capability for the Primaris marines.  I would argue that their equipment is even superior to that of traditional Chapters.  But this is a big topic, so lets break it down:

 

Hand Held Weapons:  Here is your strongest point, most of which I agree with.  Why in the hell is there not a single Chainsword in the entire line-up?  Why develop a Bolt Carbine and an Auto Bolt Rifle... when they do the same thing... in fact is it not kind of silly we have Auto Bolt Rifles when the Carbine does the same exact thing in a smaller package?  That means something in close quarters battles and riding in vehicles... ask me how I know.  If Assault Bolters are a thing... then I want a Ground Based Gravis equivalent Primaris Squad with 1 assault bolter and a heavy chainsword... and I want to be able to change out the chainswords for Boarding Shields... I would buy 100 of those guys!  But this is really a minor thing.  More Primaris types are coming... and I think what we have now is a good base to build on.  Bolters Plus are a good investment, a Chapter cannot have enough bolters.  Plasma Incinerators are now the premiere infantry based anti toughness weapon.  Maybe it seems that this is step back... but as an infantry man I can assure you, having a weapon system that can be mission configurable, have parts commonalty between all variants, and limit the need for multiple different weapons systems (which means more logistical stress than you think) is a good thing.  

 

Power Armor:  This is a moot point.  Primaris Power Armor does the same thing as standard Power Armor... with a couple of caveats:  1.  It fits the Primaris Marines, albeit minor, it was a necessity.  2.  and most importantly, the new Mk X armor is scalable and plates can be removed and added for mission specific roles.  This is actually an upgrade considering the previous 10,000 years of powered armor development.  This is another step in lessening logistical stress in terms equipment and provisioning and also gives a standard Battle Company mission configurable assets without having to request resources from another company... like a traditional chapter would when needing Terminator armor or what have you.  Think about this... Inceptors are jump pack troops, land speeders, and bikes all rolled into one package...  that is actually a really cool space borne asset and logistical tool.  Would you rather have 3 Land Speeders each with 2 crew apiece?  Or would you rather have 6 Primaris Inceptors?  Logistically I would rather have the Primaris Inceptors.  They are a smaller package.  I would rather lose 1 Inceptor vs 1 Landspeeder... and they accomplish the same task as the other 3 mentioned units they can replace.  That is a step in the right direction.

 

Vehicles:  I actually think their vehicle selection is spot on and actually better representative of Space Marines in the fluff.  You also correctly brought up that traditionally, the Space Marine Lineup did not have all that it has now.  Supposedly the Orbital Dropship of the Primaris Marines is the Overlord.  It was described in Dark Imperium as having 2 bays in it not unlike the Deathwatches Corvus Blackstar.  I believe it was stated to carry 15 Primaris in each bay.  So there is one asset.  Inceptors are Orbital Drop Capable forces that require nothing else to get them in theater, and Reivers can be Dropped in high Atmo and gluide down to their dropzones.  Repulsors are also mentioned in DI as being orbital drop capable themselves.  All of this coalesces into a very terrifying first strike capability.  But Boldthreat... no drop pods!  You do not need Drop pods.  Your tanks can be dropped from orbit.  Your fast attack option can be dropped from orbit.  And your Overlord can transport your infantry based shock troops into the heart of the enemy and support them in the gunship capacity until the mission is accomplished and then use that same vehicle for ex-filtration from the hostile LZ.  That is perfect for Super Soldier Spec Ops Ninjas that are meant to get in... kill quickly and get out before being overwhelmed.  They have eliminated the need for Thunderhawk Transporters and one shot drop pods... think about that... that is another logistical train of thought that was eliminated by Cawl's new technological advancements.  This is a huge step in combat capability.  Yes, so far there is no dedicated artillary unit for the Primaris... but lets be honest... Space Marines should have access to Ship to Surface artillary and the like... if I can orbital drop reinforcements such as Inceptors and repulsors to assist you, you should be able to rely on me for Starship fire-support as well.  I think this puts the Space Marines back to where they should be... a primarily Infantry based army meant to quickly get in, accomplish their objective and get out before being overwhelmed by the enemy.  Heavy Tanks and Artillery and Fighters and Gunships should go the the Guard.

 

This is all my opinion though.  

[Stoic Raptor]

I'm absolutely certain that Guilliman is brilliant enough to devise effective means of employing Primaris-only forces.  As for the Codex, he's writing a new one, so you can't exactly shoehorn Primaris tactics into the old ways.

 

Keep in mind that what we see is for the purpose of playability and game balance.  That's the only reason why a Primaris Marine can't ride in a Land Raider or a Drop Pod or anything else spacious enough to carry Terminators or Dreadnoughts.  There's nothing that would realistically prevent a Primaris trooper from picking up a Missile Launcher or a chainsword - we just don't see that in the game yet.

 

Essentially, they're purpose-built troops, and I have no doubt that Guilliman understands the proper purpose for each far better than we mortal minds.

[Ogun]

I think the current Primaris design does raise some interesting questions. My take on the current line up, from an in universe perspective, is that the Primaris were organised first and foremost as a crusade force, i.e.they were initially organised to fight in close support with existing chapters and Astra Militarum regiments. As such there was no need for the Primaris to acquire the full spectrum of military capabilities. This is fine for the Indomitus Crusade and for chapter reinforcements, but as you say, it does mean that the Ultima Founding seems at a distinct disadvantage compared to their codex compatriots.

 

I suppose that leaves three routes open to the Ultima Foundings.

1) Adopt the old Codex formations and wait for Cawl and Mars to make bigger versions pretty much all the major STCs (I imagine that would probably constitute tech heresy for some tech priests). - This is the Doomsday scenario for a lot of people as it would indicate the replacement of normal marines, but I would argue it is the least likely route. GW made them play differently to regular astartes, they are already on a different design path.

 

2) Actually recruit non-Primaris marines to fulfil the other roles. - This would seem a pretty odd route to go, though it is possible that GW might introduce a flaw in the Primaris that leads to this becoming a reality for some chapters. This probably is not a likely scenario, on the other hand everything about the Primaris geneseed is a little too good to be true. This is 40k, the Blood Angels and Space Wolves are not going to get over their gene flaws that easily... The general lack of details about the Primaris may mean something is in the works lore-wise for them.

 

3) Follow the route Guilliman has set them on already, i.e. acquire additional unique non-Codex units exploiting Cawl's innovations to plug capability gaps. We would probably expect to see more small specialist formations. The Primaris' emphasis seems to be on delivering mid-to-close range firepower, and I think we should expect to see something similar in any future releases. In a way they are almost a hybrid between classic marines and Tau, and as I said, I think GW will continue to develop them as a distinct faction in their own right rather than seek to replicate Codex units. So no tactical squads. Perhaps we will see a separate Codex: Primaris Marines/Codex: Ultima Founding in the next few years?

 

My guess for future units. 

- More grav vehicles, probably Repulsor variants - The Repulsor is something of a jack of all trades, and I like the idea that perhaps Primaris vehicles are actually less specialised than their normal counterparts, in contrast to the infantry.

- A tank hunter style unit - possibly an Inceptor variant with melta or another funky piece of Cawl kit.

- Another Gravis armour unit - possibly more specialised for assault, but I think Primaris will overall keep that mid to close range firepower emphasis.

[Frater Cornelius]

Guilliman may be brilliant enough, but GW ain't brilliant enough to replicate it :P

[Claws and Effect]

The answer is very simple.

 

Primaris Marines are not MEANT to do everything a regular Marine can do, only better.

 

This was a deliberate move on GW's part.

 

If they had made the Primaris every bit as flexible as the old school guys, they would have instantly invalidated the model collections of a LOT of people who may have up to 30 years and tens of thousands of dollars invested in it.

 

Not a smart business move to tick off your core customers by flat out replacing everything they already have.

 

So they made Primaris less tactically flexible and gave them fewer options.

[Frater Cornelius]

I like to think the Primaris as a throwback to the Legion times. Everyone in the unit has the same weapon. Makes sense as what they were doing is essentially GC 2.0.

[rendingon1+]

I like to think the Primaris as a throwback to the Legion times. Everyone in the unit has the same weapon. Makes sense as what they were doing is essentially GC 2.0.

The problem is that Codex Astartes was written because Legion organisation/tactics were inefficient. Which makes RG a bit schizophrenic:

"Man I have to do something with this inlfexible, cumbersome and impractical Legions"

Writes Codex.

Takes 10000 years nap.

Wakes up.

"Man I miss how Legions were awesome, this Chapter thing doesn't work for me anymore. It needs to change."

[Stoic Raptor]

Not sure changing his mind makes him schizophrenic... But I can imagine seeing how an idea has progressed after 10,000 years might change how you look at something.

[Beta galactosidase]

I'm absolutely certain that Guilliman is brilliant enough to devise effective means of employing Primaris-only forces. As for the Codex, he's writing a new one, so you can't exactly shoehorn Primaris tactics into the old ways.

 

Keep in mind that what we see is for the purpose of playability and game balance. That's the only reason why a Primaris Marine can't ride in a Land Raider or a Drop Pod or anything else spacious enough to carry Terminators or Dreadnoughts. There's nothing that would realistically prevent a Primaris trooper from picking up a Missile Launcher or a chainsword - we just don't see that in the game yet.

 

Essentially, they're purpose-built troops, and I have no doubt that Guilliman understands the proper purpose for each far better than we mortal minds.

Any vehicle filled with TDA troops still has power armored crew, and those have to take off their backpacks. A primaris-only chapter can't have land raiders, for example.

 

As for mixed chapters, hard to say. I think there a very local-level integration in vehicle support. I understand very strongly that it's not even reserve company marines seconded to crew company vehicles, it's same-company units. A little combined arms unit of tactical squad, rhino, 2x preds 2x speeders would be all from one company, from as few separate squads as possible, for better unit cohesion. Conversely if there is a Demi-company fighting and then in support of that there is a little group of armored squadrons, that could be from a separate company.

 

So there is nothing to say you couldn't have a oldmarine squad, a primaris marine squad, and all the organic vehicles including a land raider for the primaris couldn't be crewed by a second oldmarine squad from the same company. It's just a consideration.

[Lemondish]

simply put - the reason Primaris marines are not viable stand alone in games currently, is because they've made an effort to ensure there is a place for both primaris and standard astartes.

 

As far as lore goes, we don't know what other units and machines they have access to, because GW will keep quiet about it till they release a model for the most part.

 

 

 

in terms of the existing stuff, there isn't anything that says only primaris can be interred in redemptors, the only known redemptor is the first primaris ultramarine to have fallen. But Presumably anyone could be interred in it.

 

theres no reason the individual units need mixed loadouts, didn't happen during the heresy and it worked just fine. It also works just fine gameplay wise.

 

I'd agree that sergeants and characters across the board could do with more options.

 

I've said it a few times lately, but i think we'll see more primaris units over the next 12-24 months. There is apparently a super heavy primaris grav tank in the works from forgeworld for example. Someone mentioned recently that they got a slightly cryptic response about primaris terminators, and I asked Jes about close combat primaris back at fest and he said he'd probably make a close combat unit with heavier armour - so i don't think it was referring to the reivers!! And Aggressors aren't a close combat unit.

 

I'm hoping we may also see the overlord flyer from forgeworld too (speaking of, primaris can go in thunderhawks and storm birds with no issue btw - so they have that as a method of insertion too).

Regarding the heavier armour melee units, I imagine that would explain why you pay for each individual weapon on Inceptors - leaves the unit open for melee options in place of one weapon.

[tdemayo]

I'm pretty sure that in the world, the Primaris have vehicles and support we have not yet seen in-game. As far as fPrimaris Marines driving older vehicles goes, I don't see how the hull is so small that the interior could not be retrofitted for them. Perhaps some of those Predators or Vindicators already have Primaris drivers. We wouldn't be able to tell from outside the vehicle. Edited September 5, 2017 by tdemayo