New Codex Incoming!

[narcolepticltd]

 

 

https://i.redd.it/tfmx1ebz4ypz.png

 

For your consideration: they are saying that Krieg does, in fact, get doctrines.

https://i.redd.it/tfmx1ebz4ypz.png

Wow. That's just... yeah. Totally makes sense, no unforeseen consequences or anything there...

Wow. Wow. Wow.

 

That not only doesn't make any fluff sense, it also will lead to some very imbalanced synergies.

 

 

Of course they can take any one of those doctrines - and lose their DKoK regiment keyword in the process (losing all DKoK special rules). a quick social media answer to a very general question can be answered positively like this as long as you don't ask specifics as to what has to happen in order to pick up that doctrine. Last I heard, some intern running a company's social media account typically doesn't write policy.

[narcolepticltd]

double poast 

Edited October 5, 2017 by narcolepticltd

[Beams]

Generally, and I'd be inclined to agree that they shouldn't get doctrines, but at the same time, how can I argue against the word of GW, even if the person who said it is wrong?

 

I'd look like a jerk and a fool if I told someone no, and they then pointed to this.

[narcolepticltd]

Generally, and I'd be inclined to agree that they shouldn't get doctrines, but at the same time, how can I argue against the word of GW, even if the person who said it is wrong?

 

I'd look like a jerk and a fool if I told someone no, and they then pointed to this.

 

There was a reply earlier in this thread regarding this where one of the posters received an email back from forgeworld stating it would be between you and your 'local gaming group', which is a nice way of saying they don't endorse it officially but whatever house/home brew rules you cook up is fine, just buy our models. 

 

I'm ok with looking like a jerk and a fool - especially for not taking that facebook post seriously - you can simply refer the name callers to me instead. If this question is asked enough times to random company employees, one is bound to come away with an answer telling them what they want to hear. If Daddy says no maybe Momma will say yes. 

[gunnyogrady]

 

 

 

 

https://i.redd.it/tfmx1ebz4ypz.png

 

For your consideration: they are saying that Krieg does, in fact, get doctrines.

https://i.redd.it/tfmx1ebz4ypz.png

Wow. That's just... yeah. Totally makes sense, no unforeseen consequences or anything there...

Wow. Wow. Wow.

 

That not only doesn't make any fluff sense, it also will lead to some very imbalanced synergies.

Of course they can take any one of those doctrines - and lose their DKoK regiment keyword in the process (losing all DKoK special rules). a quick social media answer to a very general question can be answered positively like this as long as you don't ask specifics as to what has to happen in order to pick up that doctrine. Last I heard, some intern running a company's social media account typically doesn't write policy.

I dig what you mean regarding the intern not having final say. Even so, it's still an official GW source. So it's sketchy as hell, but it's the most "official" reference we have.

 

It honestly seems like whoever answered the question didn't realize Death Korps was a Regiment with rules already - maybe they assumed it was one of the more obscure regiments, or penal legionaries?

[narcolepticltd]

 

 

 

 

https://i.redd.it/tfmx1ebz4ypz.png

 

For your consideration: they are saying that Krieg does, in fact, get doctrines.

https://i.redd.it/tfmx1ebz4ypz.png

Wow. That's just... yeah. Totally makes sense, no unforeseen consequences or anything there...

Wow. Wow. Wow.

 

That not only doesn't make any fluff sense, it also will lead to some very imbalanced synergies.

Of course they can take any one of those doctrines - and lose their DKoK regiment keyword in the process (losing all DKoK special rules). a quick social media answer to a very general question can be answered positively like this as long as you don't ask specifics as to what has to happen in order to pick up that doctrine. Last I heard, some intern running a company's social media account typically doesn't write policy.

I dig what you mean regarding the intern not having final say. Even so, it's still an official GW source. So it's sketchy as hell, but it's the most "official" reference we have.

 

It honestly seems like whoever answered the question didn't realize Death Korps was a Regiment with rules already - maybe they assumed it was one of the more obscure regiments, or penal legionaries?

 

 

Right, and when it comes up later in a more formal environment or gets FAQ'd they can simply apologize for not being more clear... but they certainly won't be refunding any purchases  made based on that post.

 

I'm honestly under the assumption that anyone actually asking this question is only playing obtuse to try and get a scrap to rules lawyer it in - but if anyone buys forgeworld models thinking they can stack special rules based on a very vague screenshot of facebook post, they're gonna be disappointed.

 

Anyone have a direct link to this facebook post and not just a screen cap of it? It'd be nice to see more than the first 2 replies to the thread, as I'm sure if it didn't already get deleted that it blew up with more discussion on the matter. 

[narcolepticltd]

Not saying it doesn't exist, but I wasn't able to find the post on their fb page... I can't trust a screenshot of something that could easily have been photoshopped, or legitimate but removed shortly after they realized it was a mistake. If it is legitimate and the post still exists, I'd love to see it as I'll respond there for sure. 

 

EDIT: here's the reddit poast where that image originated - I have to run out to work but will read it more thoroughly when I return, but a quick scan shows the consensus being that it's a mistake (haven't had time to dig into the reddit thread to see if there's an actual link to the facebook post but will look later)

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/74dxtj/well_it_makes_no_sense_but_sounds_like_its_a_good/

Edited October 5, 2017 by narcolepticltd

[Mitchverr]

Why do some people always have to actively look for idiocy and abuse stuff. The Wh40k facebook team has proven to be wrong about rules many times, and I hope this is one of those.

 

It makes no sense at all that Elysians or Krieg use some other named regiment's doctrine. They should simply get their own, based on the bonus they receive from the FW index. I hope a FAQ will fix this, before a real FW codex rewrites them.

 

As always, despite some improvements, the GW+FW lack of communication and consistency results in a mess. Will they ever learn to speak with each other before they release stuff? It's ridiculous. I can only imagine the over-excited waac nerds out there as they envisage new ways to abuse the game. Get a life.

 

This is why i dont like them having a named thing in the doctrines, people get confused doctrines are not belonging to that regiment, the wording is pretty clear, its a case of "if you pick this named regiment you must use this doctrine that its name stuck to", not "if you take this doctrine you are now this regiment" from reading it, which would, arguably, mean if your not say, cadian regiment, but use their doctrine, you dont get to be using cadian named leaders/stratagems etc. At least to me thats how it seems from the videos showing the rules.

 

Na no one would allow that to happen. The DKoK dont have the regiment keyword right? If they dont its pretty cut and dry. Not sure how thats even a topic for them to discuss

 

Named characters like Pask or Creed dont have the regiment keyword either lol. Cut and dry, other than GW and FW saying something different to it being cut and dry :)

 

 

 

Of course they can take any one of those doctrines - and lose their DKoK regiment keyword in the process (losing all DKoK special rules). a quick social media answer to a very general question can be answered positively like this as long as you don't ask specifics as to what has to happen in order to pick up that doctrine. Last I heard, some intern running a company's social media account typically doesn't write policy.

 

 

Lose their keyword why? Nothing in the doctrines page says they lose their keyword to me, looking at it in winters SEO video, only that the doctrine is applied above for a regiment without a doctrine, IE they "count as" that regiment for the doctrine rule purpose only. Again, the way its written, it makes me think homebrew regiments without the proper keyword application dont get access to warlord trait/stratagem/relic etc. Reading over the rules at the warlord trait, nothing there suggests that you can get "cadian" warlord trait without picking cadian regiment proper, not home brew for example.

 

The way its written, I suspect the keyword of the doctrine changes to match the regiment is the intended effect, not the other way round.

 

 

 

There was a reply earlier in this thread regarding this where one of the posters received an email back from forgeworld stating it would be between you and your 'local gaming group', which is a nice way of saying they don't endorse it officially but whatever house/home brew rules you cook up is fine, just buy our models. 

 

I'm ok with looking like a jerk and a fool - especially for not taking that facebook post seriously - you can simply refer the name callers to me instead. If this question is asked enough times to random company employees, one is bound to come away with an answer telling them what they want to hear. If Daddy says no maybe Momma will say yes. 

 

 

Reply was what I got when I asked from FW, whom generally say "decide yourself", I would personally go over a GW hard comment over a FW comment, because FW always says "you decide" whenever asked about anything in the past by myself or anyone I know unless they flatout say "no".

 

As you said, if you ask enough employee's they will, but the problem is, they aint said no at all either, only "go for it" effectively or a non answer of "you pick".

 

 

Effectively what we have chaps, is the port of call GW FB, the only replies we tend to get (least that i have seen) saying go for it, hopefully they push it to the rules team whom then make some errata or FAQ on the subject, but till then, I would say you home brew/ask any tourny organiser for advice/a ruling giving them the replies of both companies.

 

 

Final note,

 

I could be wrong, but can anyone prove this wrong....

 

If you go named 8 regiments, you must select their associated doctrine.

if you go homebrew, you only get doctrine, IE no warlord trait, no regiment order, no regiment stratagem, no regiment relic.

if you go dkk/elysian and a doctrine, same as above only you have your special rules still which you pay for in points and limited access to other assets.

 

Because I cant find it anywhere written that the latter group (putting dkk and elysian in there for sake of convenience) would get anything more out of it, which limits the "crazyness" too that people seem to fear happening a lil bit.

[Mitchverr]

Not saying it doesn't exist, but I wasn't able to find the post on their fb page... I can't trust a screenshot of something that could easily have been photoshopped, or legitimate but removed shortly after they realized it was a mistake. If it is legitimate and the post still exists, I'd love to see it as I'll respond there for sure. 

 

I would also like to see it, will do a rummage looking for it again.

[lash144]

So I am atm looking at the relics, especially the Dagger of Tu'Sakh.

 

Which units do you want to infiltrate with it?

I was thinking about giving it to a Psyker and infiltrate 3-6 Bullgryns, as kind of a Distraction Carnifex.

[Withershadow]

 

 

 

https://i.redd.it/tfmx1ebz4ypz.png

 

For your consideration: they are saying that Krieg does, in fact, get doctrines.

https://i.redd.it/tfmx1ebz4ypz.png

Wow. That's just... yeah. Totally makes sense, no unforeseen consequences or anything there...

Wow. Wow. Wow.

 

That not only doesn't make any fluff sense, it also will lead to some very imbalanced synergies.

 

 

Of course they can take any one of those doctrines - and lose their DKoK regiment keyword in the process (losing all DKoK special rules). a quick social media answer to a very general question can be answered positively like this as long as you don't ask specifics as to what has to happen in order to pick up that doctrine. Last I heard, some intern running a company's social media account typically doesn't write policy.

 

Except the Doctrine has a separate name, it doesn't replace your Regiment.  Picking "Industrial Efficiency" as your Doctrine does not change your regiment to "Armageddon Steel Legion".  RAW there is no conflict, and per GW Facebook site, this is the intent.

 

At least until FW releases an official FAQ or index to flesh out Krieg and Elysians, welcome to the Forge World Master Race... as it has always been, and always shall.

 

Also this: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1904581459862484&id=1575682476085719

Edited October 5, 2017 by Withershadow

[CoffeeGrunt]

So I am atm looking at the relics, especially the Dagger of Tu'Sakh.

 

Which units do you want to infiltrate with it?

I was thinking about giving it to a Psyker and infiltrate 3-6 Bullgryns, as kind of a Distraction Carnifex.

Bullgryns can't and Psykers possibly can't either, as well as aircraft and Commissars. They don't have the <Regiment> keyword.

[Mitchverr]

Except the Doctrine has a separate name, it doesn't replace your Regiment.  Picking "Industrial Efficiency" as your Doctrine does not change your regiment to "Armageddon Steel Legion".  RAW there is no conflict, and per GW Facebook site, this is the intent.

 

At least until FW releases an official FAQ or index to flesh out Krieg and Elysians, welcome to the Forge World Master Race... as it has always been, and always shall.

 

Also this: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1904581459862484&id=1575682476085719

 

 

First, thanks for finding that link :)

 

Second, DKoK have never been a master race, feels nice to be special for once right?

[CoffeeGrunt]

So I am atm looking at the relics, especially the Dagger of Tu'Sakh.

 

Which units do you want to infiltrate with it?

I was thinking about giving it to a Psyker and infiltrate 3-6 Bullgryns, as kind of a Distraction Carnifex.

Bullgryns can't and Psykers possibly can't either, as well as aircraft and Commissars. They don't have the <Regiment> keyword.

[Mitchverr]

 

So I am atm looking at the relics, especially the Dagger of Tu'Sakh.

 

Which units do you want to infiltrate with it?

I was thinking about giving it to a Psyker and infiltrate 3-6 Bullgryns, as kind of a Distraction Carnifex.

Bullgryns can't and Psykers possibly can't either, as well as aircraft and Commissars. They don't have the <Regiment> keyword.

 

 

Doesnt the item only say "bearer and one infantry unit"? It doesnt say they must be astra mili etc. Meaning you could use a tank commander?

[Withershadow]

 

This is why i dont like them having a named thing in the doctrines, people get confused doctrines are not belonging to that regiment, the wording is pretty clear, its a case of "if you pick this named regiment you must use this doctrine that its name stuck to", not "if you take this doctrine you are now this regiment" from reading it, which would, arguably, mean if your not say, cadian regiment, but use their doctrine, you dont get to be using cadian named leaders/stratagems etc. At least to me thats how it seems from the videos showing the rules.

That's exactly how it reads.  If you take a successor Chapter of Ultramarines, you get their chapter tactic (doctrine), but you can't bring Calgar as your Chapter Master or give one of your guys the Sanctic Halo relic.  You can use the unique stratagem, but only because the codex rules specifically allow you to do so.  The same thing applies to Guardsmen, except from what I've seen there is no such special caveat for stratagems.  So the Savlar Chemodogs could pick Industrial Efficiency as their doctrine, and have the same infantry and vehicle buffs as Armageddon Steel Legion, but they would not get the unique orders, stratagem, or relic. 

 

 

Except the Doctrine has a separate name, it doesn't replace your Regiment.  Picking "Industrial Efficiency" as your Doctrine does not change your regiment to "Armageddon Steel Legion".  RAW there is no conflict, and per GW Facebook site, this is the intent.

 

At least until FW releases an official FAQ or index to flesh out Krieg and Elysians, welcome to the Forge World Master Race... as it has always been, and always shall.

 

Also this: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1904581459862484&id=1575682476085719

 

 

First, thanks for finding that link

 

Second, DKoK have never always been a master race, feels nice to be special for oncereturn to normalcy right?

 

Fixed that for you.  None has ever been as fly as us... none ever shall!

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Withershadow

[seriade]

Some people here are seriously trying to be even worse then WAAC players.

 

Ok lets explain how this all works.  Raptors are a successor chapter of the raven guard they use the same chapter tactics as the raven guard.  They however cannot take shrike as he is a raven guard character and not a raptor.  The can take all the unique orders stratagems ie raptors can use strike from the shadows and they can use raven guard relics as they count as raven guard so the only restriction is characters.

 

The issue here is the DKoK and the Elesians.  These 2 groups are just like the blood angels, dark angels and space wolves being they do not have a chapter tactic at the moment and use an index instead of the codex.

 

What the guy from GW said was yes you can use DKoK models as normal imperial guard from the astra militarium codex and because they do not have a chaper tactic in that book you can pick one to use but you loose access to the special abilities from the forgeworld index.

 

Several things to point out that people seem to be overlooking look at crawl from the index to the codex he lost 2 rules he had in the index that would become his warlord trait in the codex and a rule for mars as a chapter tactic.  This means that basically Cult of Sacrifice is the DKoK chapter tactic they do not get an extra one.  Also they do not get any changes to points or damage statistics on weapons from there index entry unless forgeworld makes an faq to support the new guard codex.

 

What this means is you can play DKoK as written with cult of sacrifice from the index with all those special rules.  Or you may just count them as a normal guard regiment and use the new codex and treat them as normal guard so no cult of sacrifice, no special characters ,etc.

Edited October 5, 2017 by WarriorFish
Swear filter dodge removed

[Mitchverr]

Some people here are seriously trying to be even worse then WAAC players.

 

Ok lets explain how this all works.  Raptors are a successor chapter of the raven guard they use the same chapter tactics as the raven guard.  They however cannot take shrike as he is a raven guard character and not a raptor.  The can take all the unique orders stratagems ie raptors can use strike from the shadows and they can use raven guard relics as they count as raven guard so the only restriction is characters.

 

The issue here is the DKoK and the Elesians.  These 2 groups are just like the blood angels, dark angels and space wolves being they do not have a chapter tactic at the moment and use an index instead of the codex.

 

What the guy from GW said was yes you can use DKoK models as normal imperial guard from the astra militarium codex and because they do not have a chaper tactic in that book you can pick one to use but you loose access to the special abilities from the forgeworld index.

 

Several things to point out that people seem to be overlooking look at crawl from the index to the codex he lost 2 rules he had in the index that would become his warlord trait in the codex and a rule for mars as a chapter tactic.  This means that basically Cult of Sacrifice is the DKoK chapter tactic they do not get an extra one.  Also they do not get any changes to points or damage statistics on weapons from there index entry unless forgeworld makes an faq to support the new guard codex.

 

What this means is you can play DKoK as written with cult of sacrifice from the index with all those special rules.  Or you may just count them as a normal guard regiment and use the new codex and treat them as normal guard so no cult of sacrifice, no special characters ,etc.

 

 

apart from the clearly are NOT like "blood angels, dark angels and space wolves" because RAW, the regiments of the militarum are different in how they apply doctrine to every other codex army, the space marine codex specifically NEGATES it, however the militarum codex specifically is FINE with it lol.

 

No, what the guy said was you can use the doctrines for their army. They do not have a doctrine, he said you can PICK ONE. He said nothing about losing special abilities, at all.

 

Crawl, i assume you mean Cawl, again, admech has a completely different setup again, did cawl pay points for said abilities? No, DKoK and Elysians technically pay points for it and are hardlimited in the other units you can select for their armies, unlike in admech where its a 1 model HQ choice, which again, is different to a whole army.

 

Chapter tactics are completely different to doctrines from a rules as written standpoint, dont use those as an example, it is apple to orange, both fruits, but different.

 

"all those special rules", cult of sacrifice is the only special rule for DKoK units effectively (sure they get 3+ WS for generic infantry, but lose the ability to take heavy weapons), and again, they pay points value for this along with significant limitations in specific wargear.

Edited October 5, 2017 by WarriorFish
Quote text swear filter dodge removed

[lash144]

 

So I am atm looking at the relics, especially the Dagger of Tu'Sakh.

 

Which units do you want to infiltrate with it?

I was thinking about giving it to a Psyker and infiltrate 3-6 Bullgryns, as kind of a Distraction Carnifex.

Bullgryns can't and Psykers possibly can't either, as well as aircraft and Commissars. They don't have the <Regiment> keyword.

 

 

Why should the <Regiment> keyword be required? It isn´t a regiment specific relic.

[Zectz]

It's so obvious the intention of that answer was to allow people with forge world models to "count as" the codex regiments. Not apply those rules in addition to your already existing forge world index special rules. If you want to use your Death Korp models as Steel Legion no problem. But you can't just magically apply the Steel Legion doctrine to the Desth Korp data sheets. You need the regiment keyword to benefit from the doctrine. Come on people....

 

Anyway they will FAQ this for sure. I can't wait for that. It's just like people saying Pask could issue orders to himself.... Then again nothing surprises me these days. The same mentality of people asked in the 7th ED FAQs if fortifications could scout.

[Zectz]

 

Why should the <Regiment> keyword be required? It isn´t a regiment specific relic.

Yes it's not regiment specific, but it states that the infantry unit chosen must have the same regiment keyword as the relic bearer. So in this case it won't work with pysker + bullgryn.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Zectz

[our_baz]

It's so obvious the intention of that answer was to allow people with forge world models to "count as" the codex regiments. Not apply those rules in addition to your already existing forge world index special rules. If you want to use your Death Korp models as Steel Legion no problem. But you can't just magically apply the Steel Legion doctrine to the Desth Korp data sheets. You need the regiment keyword to benefit from the doctrine. Come on people....

Anyway they will FAQ this for sure. I can't wait for that. It's just like people saying Pask could issue orders to himself.... Then again nothing surprises me these days. The same mentality of people asked in the 7th ED FAQs if fortifications could scout.

 

Ok lets explain how this all works.  Raptors are a successor chapter of the raven guard they use the same chapter tactics as the raven guard.  They however cannot take shrike as he is a raven guard character and not a raptor.  The can take all the unique orders stratagems ie raptors can use strike from the shadows and they can use raven guard relics as they count as raven guard so the only restriction is characters.

 

The issue here is the DKoK and the Elesians.  These 2 groups are just like the blood angels, dark angels and space wolves being they do not have a chapter tactic at the moment and use an index instead of the codex.

 

What the guy from GW said was yes you can use DKoK models as normal imperial guard from the astra militarium codex and because they do not have a chaper tactic in that book you can pick one to use but you loose access to the special abilities from the forgeworld index.

 

Several things to point out that people seem to be overlooking look at crawl from the index to the codex he lost 2 rules he had in the index that would become his warlord trait in the codex and a rule for mars as a chapter tactic.  This means that basically Cult of Sacrifice is the DKoK chapter tactic they do not get an extra one.  Also they do not get any changes to points or damage statistics on weapons from there index entry unless forgeworld makes an faq to support the new guard codex.

 

What this means is you can play DKoK as written with cult of sacrifice from the index with all those special rules.  Or you may just count them as a normal guard regiment and use the new codex and treat them as normal guard so no cult of sacrifice, no special characters ,etc.

.

If I could bestow a 1000 likes to both of I would. The pair of you have hit the nail on the head, with regards to doctrines.

Edited October 5, 2017 by our_baz

[Mitchverr]

It's so obvious the intention of that answer was to allow people with forge world models to "count as" the codex regiments. Not apply those rules in addition to your already existing forge world index special rules. If you want to use your Death Korp models as Steel Legion no problem. But you can't just magically apply the Steel Legion doctrine to the Desth Korp data sheets. You need the regiment keyword to benefit from the doctrine. Come on people....

 

Anyway they will FAQ this for sure. I can't wait for that. It's just like people saying Pask could issue orders to himself.... Then again nothing surprises me these days. The same mentality of people asked in the 7th ED FAQs if fortifications could scout.

 

The way it was answered in the FB post wasnt "obvious" as to that answer at all lol.

 

"Hey Jon - yes, it would indeed. They haven't got their own, so you pick the one you want to use." is literally the answer lol. Theres literally nothing in this answer to say "It's so obvious the intention of that answer was to allow people with forge world models to "count as"".

 

Both armies get access to <regiment> units, so why wouldnt they count as a regiment?

 

 

I aint trying to WAAC or anything(hell i aint likely to game for 6 months yet and am generally very laid back, i would DKoK when they were thought of as 1 of the worst armies in the table), I am simply pointing it out, which is why I commented to FW so they would consider it in their future FAQ, because if they dont get that, do they get stratagems, do they get relics, do they get x y or z

Edited October 5, 2017 by Mitchverr

[lash144]

 

Why should the <Regiment> keyword be required? It isn´t a regiment specific relic.

Yes it's not regiment specific, but it states that the infantry unit chosen must have the same regiment keyword as the relic bearer. So in this case it won't work with pysker + bullgryn.

 

 

Okay to bad, would be a really funny combo otherwise :D

 

So what do you all suggest else to infiltrate?

[Withershadow]

Some people here are seriously trying to be even worse then WAAC players.

 

Ok lets explain how this all works.  Raptors are a successor chapter of the raven guard they use the same chapter tactics as the raven guard.  They however cannot take shrike as he is a raven guard character and not a raptor.  The can take all the unique orders stratagems ie raptors can use strike from the shadows and they can use raven guard relics as they count as raven guard so the only restriction is characters.

This is wrong.  Raptors are NOT able to use Raven Guard Warlord Traits or Relics.  They can use the Stratagem only because the rules specifically say successors can use the parent chapter's stratagem. 

 

The rest of your post I won't bother addressing specifically since it's all hotheaded opinion that contradicts what is actually written down in the codex and what is said by GW.  The Doctrine rules apply to any Astra Militarum datasheets that have a <Regiment>.  Death Korps of Krieg and Elysians are Astra Militarum datasheets with a <Regiment>.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Withershadow