Ultramarines Tactica: Taking on the Deathguard

[Prot]

I figure with the release around the corner we should at least start talking about how we are taking these guys on. 

 

First off if anyone cares, I did do a recent batrep of my Ultra's vs Deathguard. It was a very close game, and I wanted to make sure my list wasn't too over the top and once I saw his list I made mine on the fly and it's basically 'pure' DG vs 'pure' UM. (No superheavies, no allies, etc.) 

 

That batrep is here: Prot's UM vs DG (has some pictures as well.)

 

 

Getting into the nitty gritty: Tactica for UM:

 

I'll try to keep my own experience in point form to keep it clean. I invite all of you to do the same. The more info we share, the better off we are.

 

1. Counter Disgustingly Resilient with Damage: I found T5 + the Disgustingly Resilient is really annoying after a while. I think this is one saving grace of Intercessors. Giving the DG a flat 3+ / 5++ is just pretty crazy over time with T5 as well. 

 

So I find getting mutli damage weapons on DG is paramount in overcoming the overlapping saves. The codex for DG isn't out yet, but I believe it will get worse. (I over charge Plasma every chance I get.)

 

2. When high Damage isn't available SPAM is your friend: By this I mean we obviously don't have a ton of high damage. High damage is great against ANY chaos in my opinion as multi wounds are a plenty in their elite builds (including "All is Dust"), but in the event you are playing DG and can't find the damage, make sure you are spamming. This is my big saving grace on Aggressors. Aggressors do great spam, and whenever possible this is a great matchup for Poxwalkers.

 

Another excellent weapon for this match up is the HOG. (In my Primaris list I always take one Redemptor with a HOG).

 

3. Get the right Poxwalker matchup: Please remember that Poxwalkers can only turn Infantry into additional Poxwalkers. At first glance scouts seem like a good match up, but at best you're stalling the conversion of Scouts into Poxwalkers. I prefer slamming into them with a vehicle, or bikes even.... anything that is not Infantry and is high toughness. If you can hit them from an angle, quite often they will be forced to disengage giving a free breather turn. As of now, Typhus has to be close to them for the +1 T. I find if I get them off to a side, they will break off Typhus in search of a better target.

 

4. Get ready to tank a potential high volume of Mortal Wounds.  The reason I mention this is right now (pre DG codex) the Psychic phase isn't the only source of Mortal wounds. The aura's are dealing Mortal wounds, and I know Mortarion is rumoured to have a 7" 4+ mortal wound Aura.  Typhus has an ability similar on a 6+ (I think). I've been hit with it often enough in late stages this can be brutal.

 

While there is no firm 'counter' to this I often soften the blow by using the Psychic Fortress  (roll of a 5 = a friendly unit within 18 has 4+ against mortal wounds.)

 

I will often position a Redemptor/Dread out front, or a Rhino if available when I can foresee Smite/Mortal wounds coming, and I will often use Armour of Contempt. For a single CP as long as you target a UM Vehicle, you can get a 5+ save on the Mortal wounds.

 

 

That's some stuff off the top of my head. Basic ideas would be less specific, more about playing in general but we all like different armies. I personally find keeping reserves off till the "DG horde" is about Mid table works well. They don't like to turn around to take care of their back field so sometimes this can work to your advantage. My Inceptors have done some real work here. This is a rare army where I may see them last a turn or two! :)

 

Please add whatever you can from your experiences.

 

 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Lascannon, melta/multi-melta, and krak missiles are pretty much compulsory when dealing with Death Guard. Thankfully my terminators are all modeled with cyclones. Power fists or thunder hammers for melee. Thunder hammer terminators with a librarian casting psychic fortress on them every turn would probably be helpful too.

 

Basically high strength to wound on 3s, good AP to reduce their armour save as much as possible, and multi-wounds to force multiple attempts at disgustingly resilient.

 

Venerable Dreadnoughts with twin autocannon don't necessarily meet all the requirements, but they put a lot of firepower downrange, and quantity has a quality all its own.

[Frater Cornelius]

I think D6 damage is quite overkill against regular dudes. Blight Drones and Morty? Sure. But against regulars I prefet 2D or D3D weapons like overcharged Plasmas, Krak Grenades, Autocannons and so on.

To be fair, Morty represents the biggest issue in my eyes. 4++ followed by a 5+++ per wound taken is very hard to down, especially with 18W. Guilliman should be able to do it. If Morty is anything like Magnus, then he should kill Guilliman in 2 phases, which will allow Guilliman hit trice (Morty needs to charge for that and kill Guilliman after the second phase). This should kill Morty, as long as he does not have a way to boost his 4++.

[Prot]

Yea the Mortal Wound 'counters' I mention in the first post seem like they will be massively relied on. The more that trickles out regarding the DG I can't believe how many ways they have to dish out Mortal Wounds.

[Captain Idaho]

Good old fashioned Scions of Guilliman with Tactical Marines and plasma overcharging and a Grav Cannon is solid.

 

Against the rank and file Death Guard a Dreadnought, Terminator and character assaults can do wonders. Relic blades are your friends in this circumstance as they do D3 wounds and hit most models with a 3+ to sound.

 

Special mention must go to the Sternguard and their Strategum. They can put a solid number of wounds on Death Guard.

 

Now, Mortarion... that could be a different beast altogether. He's tough and can take a beating. I don't know his full rules though so not sure exactly yet.

[Welf1984]

I saw the post on the stratagems and got a bit paranoid about Nurgle's Rot. Does it make sense to use Apothecaries to counter this? I have an Primaris one and one on bike.

[Frater Cornelius]

Nurgle's Rot is like Orbital Strike. Both are useless. Noone will use 3CP for maybe some damage. That vehicle explosion Stratagem. Oh boy, that one is funny. You basically suicide bomb something big and deal guaranteed damage. Big damage if you have your Land Raider explode. THAT is what you should be scared of Oo

[Captain Idaho]

Where are we finding this information on our perfidious for?

[Frater Cornelius]

Warhammer Community.

[Captain Idaho]

Duh. I think I should have checked there 1st.

[Captain Idaho]

I think range fire will help us a lot. Many of their Mortal Wound tricks are up close.

 

As Ultramarines we should, as ever, split our forces around the table into divisions rather than clump. Sounds like I'm obsessed but consider that putting our army around 1 or 2 characters means the Death Guard tricks are hitting maximum numbers of units. If only 1 or 2 units are being hit by their Mortal Wound generators each turn then the Death Guard power on the table is neutered.

[Prot]

I like to draw them one way if I can. In a non-tournament type setting we most often play Maelstrom to keep everyone moving, but by setting up and drawing them out, it hurts their damage which is largely plasma/blight launcher based (infantry wise).

 

Some DG players like to dabble in Preds/etc because of this. But in order to really do what they do well, it often means the DG are forced to leave their heavies unsupported in their zone. This kind of goes back to my deep field, hard hitting combo of reserves. Whatever I hit, I want it gone, or tied up for the foreseeable future.

 

DG are really resilient but usually pretty obvious. We also don't know what that new tank does yet. But unless it's an assault type/moving and shooting vehicle, it might sit back like a Pred.

 

This is one match up I really like the Ancient and/or Apothecary and super cheap HQ's. Since this isn't idea vs a lot of armies I rarely actually play that combo.

 

Poxwalker spam is why I don't really 'spread out' personally. They are a really annoying unit. It's one thing to face a squad or two but some guys I've faced are loading the board with them and simply tying you up until the heavy hitters get there. 

[Guiltysparc]

This is pure speculation, but i would imagine that new DG tank is basically a giant, plague spitting mortar. I'm basing this solely on the look of it.  That kind of unit would really help a DG army, something like a whirlwind where it could just lob shells over the advancing foot sloggers, maybe with to-hit debuffs on units it damages.

[Frater Cornelius]

The average Plague Marine is less durable than a Primaris against most weapons. T4 2W go a long way compared to T5 1W 5+++, especially considering that multidamage weapons are not wasted against 1W DG models due to the FnP. Also, if Morty has a similar damage output as Magnus, he will die to Guilliman. The only reason Magnus can luck out is the re-roll of 1s and potential 3++. Mortarion has neither, only a 5+++. Give Guilliman two combat phases and it will be over.

[Captain Idaho]

Poxwalker spam is why I don't really 'spread out' personally. They are a really annoying unit. It's one thing to face a squad or two but some guys I've faced are loading the board with them and simply tying you up until the heavy hitters get there.

 

Yeah this is a concern but I don't generally mean each unit in the army is completely separated and fighting alone.

 

I mean breaking the army into divisions that can operate effectively.

 

Using my own 2000pts list as an example, I have a Captain with Sternguard in a Rhino that can operate alone but in support of any part of the table needed, a Lieutenant leading a Venerable Dreadnought and Devastator squad that provides fire support, 2 footslogging and 1 Rhino Tacticals providing numbers and midfield combat capacity and then a Contemptor and Cataphractii lead by a Captain.

 

This force is not perfect but it can operate in several effective divisions and is flexible. Emperor bless our Strategums.

 

Of course I'm not disagreeing with you as you're advising drawing the opponent one way. Especially true if the opponent outnumbers us with Pox Walkers.

 

I'm more expanding on my thoughts so it's clear what I mean by separating my army into divisions. They can still be closer together as needed but not as vulnerable to area of effect abilities.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[Guiltysparc]

 

Poxwalker spam is why I don't really 'spread out' personally. They are a really annoying unit. It's one thing to face a squad or two but some guys I've faced are loading the board with them and simply tying you up until the heavy hitters get there.

Yeah this is a concern but I don't generally mean each unit in the army is completely separated and fighting alone.

 

I mean breaking the army into divisions that can operate effectively.

 

Using my own 2000pts list as an example, I have a Captain with Sternguard in a Rhino that can operate alone but in support of any part of the table needed, a Lieutenant leading a Venerable Dreadnought and Devastator squad that provides fire support, 2 footslogging and 1 Rhino Tacticals providing numbers and midfield combat capacity and then a Contemptor and Cataphractii lead by a Captain.

 

This force is not perfect but it can operate in several effective divisions and is flexible. Emperor bless our Strategums.

 

Of course I'm not disagreeing with you as you're advising drawing the opponent one way. Especially true if the opponent outnumbers us with Pox Walkers.

 

I'm more expanding on my thoughts so it's clear what I mean by separating my army into divisions. They can still be closer together as needed but not as vulnerable to area of effect abilities.

 

 

My most recent army list ideas have started with this sort of thinking as the basis of its design.  Here is one example of a "tool box" type army i posted over in the army list fourm.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339115-double-repulsor-list-2000pts/

 

 

Assault Element - Might of Heros give me more hits from the burning blade and power fists and Null Zone ensures they go through via denying invulnerable saves.

• Primaris Librarian - Might of Heros, Null Zone
• Primaris Lieutenant - Bolt Pistol, Burning Blade
• Agressor Squad - Flamestorm
• Repulsor - HOG, Twin Lascannon

Forward Objective Grabbers

• Intercessor Squad - Bolt Rifles, Grenade Launcher, Power Sword
• Hellblaster Squad - Regular Plasma Incinerators
• Repulsor - HOG, Twin Lascannon

Midfield Support

• Intercessor Squad - Bolter Rifles, Grenade Launcher, Power Sword
• Redemptor Dreadnought - Macro Plas, Gattling Cannon, Storm bolters

Backline Fire Support

• Primaris Captain - Auto bolt rifle, Power Sword, Storm of Fire Warlord trait (-1 AP on to-wound rolls of 6 within 6"), Chapter Master Upgrade (re-roll all failed hits within 6")
• Predator* - Autocannon, 2x Heavy Bolter running Hellfire Shells Strategem (D3 mortal wounds on hit, 1CP Per), HK Missile
• Whirlwind - Vengeance Launcher, HK Missile
• Sniper Scouts - 3x Camo Cloaks

Edited September 6, 2017 by Guiltysparc

[Captain Idaho]

Great minds think alike (we'll ignore the fools part to that clichè).

 

I like what you've done. Intact I'll probably use a similar classification for my list when breaking down divisions of my own list. :)

[hermanista]

I'm considering retrofitting a Terminus Ultra.

 

For when Morty absolutely, positively needs to die.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Darn GW, making it necessary to buy a Razorback and a Predator just to get the parts to turn a Land Raider into a Terminus Ultra. Pity Cronus can't drive it.

[hermanista]

It does give you two Rhinos to replace the drop pods I probably don't need any more then.

 

Scoop up two FW turrets for them and they become razor backs too.

 

(I did find a predator Spondon sprue and razorback turret spruce in my bits box today though, so I'm onto a winner)

[crazyterran]

Do the Predator sponsons fit on a Land Raider? I thought the Rhino sized sponsons would be too small.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

The side doors on a Rhino and Land Raider are the same.

[Mr. Shine]

I'm considering retrofitting a Terminus Ultra.

 

For when Morty absolutely, positively needs to die.

 

You're going to need a lot more than that. With 18 Wounds, a 4+ Invulnerable Save and Disgustingly Resilient... you'll need four or five of those to reliably put him down.

 

The side doors on a Rhino and Land Raider are the same.

Sort of. The doors are different sizes, but the Land Raider has the same notches in its door openings as those found in a Rhino/Predator's door openings for the sponsons to fit.

[hermanista]

Terminus Ultra and faith in the blessed Emperor...

 

*And maybe a lieutenant and captain for rerolls*