dark angels lore and chapter identity

[nusphigor]

hi all

 

I have been reading about the dark angels and i have found them quite interesting (specially the novel Angels of Darkness) but i still have some questions about their identity. So i thought i might ask to the experts.

 

¿What would you say that are the defining quirks or characteristics that define the dark angels and their successors, in lore, personality and iconography?

 

also a bonus question: ¿is it possible to do a Dark Angels successor that doesn´t have anything to do with the Deathwing and Ravenwing?

 

thank you guys and i hope you can help me with this

[Bryan Blaire]

I'll be honest, I think trying to reduce any faction in 40K down to a single or few "defining features" leads to underdevelopment of any ideas, as well as the proliferation of memes surrounding 40K and the factions. I don't think that kind of reductionism is useful to anyone in the hobby, and I think that if you ask any 30 fans of a faction, you will probably get at least three different views, and I think you'd get many more than that, and they will all be equally valid. That said, I've tried to answer your questions with as best a focus as I can.

 

What would you say that are the defining quirks or characteristics that define the dark angels and their successors, in lore, personality and iconography?

Defining Quirk/Characteristic amongst the First Legion, the Unforgiven: the Hunt for the Fallen

Personality: Stoic, those that speak frequently and expansively are often looked at as oddities amongst the Unforgiven

Iconography: The sword, or the wings. One of the two, most of the Unforgiven use some portion of an icon with a sword or wings in it.

 

is it possible to do a Dark Angels successor that doesn´t have anything to do with the Deathwing and Ravenwing?

If by this, you mean "Do I have to use a 1st Company that is all Terminators, and a 2nd Company that is all fast attack/aerial vehicles?" Well, you don't have to, but that's pretty much going to eliminate the use of the Dark Angels Codex, and make them a pretty divergent Unforgiven successor, but it wouldn't absolutely be demanded, and if you can come up with a good story about how the Successor Chapter hunts the Fallen in a different way, that would be really original.

 

If your question is "Do I have to make a Successor that participates in the Hunt?", I think the answer is "If they aren't, then they probably aren't going to be associated with the Unforgiven" since that really the unifying feature of the First Legion's "loose organization". If they don't participate in that secret, they probably won't be trusted to be privy to any other secrets, and they likely will even be denied a "position"/acknowledgement as one of the Lion's line. Even if they are acknowledged, obviously they wouldn't be brought in to the big Unforgiven pow-wows, so they will miss out on the great majority of that brotherhood.

[nusphigor]

I'll be honest, I think trying to reduce any faction in 40K down to a single or few "defining features" leads to underdevelopment of any ideas, as well as the proliferation of memes surrounding 40K and the factions. I don't think that kind of reductionism is useful to anyone in the hobby, and I think that if you ask any 30 fans of a faction, you will probably get at least three different views, and I think you'd get many more than that, and they will all be equally valid. That said, I've tried to answer your questions with as best a focus as I can.

 

 

Thank you for your answer.

What i mean is background and artistic "mood" or theme. For example: Ultras and their successor have hellenistic and imperial rome kind of background, in the black templars you can see the germanic crusader kind of mood. As far as i can see on the dark angels they have a dark ages or gothic kind of mood. That is why i think they have all of those sword and angel symbols on them and that brooding or, as you said, stoic, manner, or at least thats what i felt when a read angels of darkness, but i wanted to ask to actual da players to know of their opinions and to see if what i understood is correct or not.

 

As for the Deathwing and Ravenwing thing is because i completely dislike their concept in game because lorewise i understand they can work just like any other veteran group, having in mind that in other secretive chapters or legions only veterans have access to most of the chapters or legions secrets. A good example of this is the mornival of the sons of horus (only those approved by horus knew the true extent of his ambition), the sanguinary guard of the blood angels legion (only a few veterans know of the blood rage), or in the same angels of darkness nove when Boreas elevates one of his brothers to veteran status just to tell him about the fallen and even then the apothecary was secretly already a member of the deathwing.

My question in that regard was that if i absolutely had to use deathwing and/or ravenwing if i ever wanted to use terminators or bikers/land speeders because, as I said, i really dislike their idea gameplay wise.

 

 

i thank you for your answers and i apologize if i formulated my questions wrongly.

[MoK]

Dark Angels are warrior monks. Think robes, hoods, and other monkly apparel and rituals/rites. The original Calibanite knights where very monk/Templar-like. This is where the use of Bikes comes in, hence why Ravenwing is actually very important to DA identity. The Deathwing have the Native American style, but that's really just DAs rather than the Successors.

I would say if you want to play a DA successor, then play them. Your chapter will still have the Deathwing and Ravenwing, well their version anyway, but you just don't have to use them. Just use a Battle Company. However if you do use any Terminators, Bikes or landspeeders, you will have to use the rules for the appropriate company.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

So you like DW and RW lore but not the roles on the tabletop and you want a way to have a DA army with terminators and bikes that are not DW and RW?

 

That's a bit confusing!

 

I can't actually see how you can like the lore of RW and not like them on the tabletop because in the tabletop they are just bikes and terminators with a fancy name.

 

So basically it's not 100% certain that all Sucessor have DW and RWbbut logic and lore points that they would have since Sucessors have their Inner Circles and they do joint operations.

[nusphigor]

Dark Angels are warrior monks. Think robes, hoods, and other monkly apparel and rituals/rites. The original Calibanite knights where very monk/Templar-like. This is where the use of Bikes comes in, hence why Ravenwing is actually very important to DA identity. The Deathwing have the Native American style, but that's really just DAs rather than the Successors.

I would say if you want to play a DA successor, then play them. Your chapter will still have the Deathwing and Ravenwing, well their version anyway, but you just don't have to use them. Just use a Battle Company. However if you do use any Terminators, Bikes or landspeeders, you will have to use the rules for the appropriate company.

thank you MoK! exactly what my doubts were!

 

So you like DW and RW lore but not the roles on the tabletop and you want a way to have a DA army with terminators and bikes that are not DW and RW?

 

That's a bit confusing!

 

I can't actually see how you can like the lore of RW and not like them on the tabletop because in the tabletop they are just bikes and terminators with a fancy name.

 

So basically it's not 100% certain that all Sucessor have DW and RWbbut logic and lore points that they would have since Sucessors have their Inner Circles and they do joint operations.

Not really chaplain lucifer, i don't really want to field those units because of their rules (as i find them too bland and generic for what they are supposed to be) but still i like their lore as it makes the character of the chapter quite unique (the whole circles of secrecy thing).

It's just like the alpha legion; awesome lore, really enjoyable books, but really meh on the tabletop.

 

i am still deciding if i want DA as the parent antecesors of my chapter, as i wrote their background as being scholar warriors with a lodge kind of organization and i am converting the old pewter grey knight termies and power armoured minis as veterans, so they scream dark gothic secrecy everytime i look at them.

 

thank you guys for your thoughts on the matter.

[Augustus]

What I like is the Dark Angel's push loyalty and obedience but are somehow ingrained be it through teaching/genetic engineering to doubt and question. 

I am sure the gradual unravelling of the Fallen has a large part to play. But the juxtaposition of Loyalty to the Chapter! while simultaneously finding out many of the truths the Chapter promulgated are in fact half truths if not outright lies. I enjoy this aspect but sometimes I just want to see the Dark Angels crush some heretics, aliens, or mutants with no lingering shadow of the Hunt at play. 

One of my favorite scenes in all of 40k was Boreas taking his Crozius to orks and with every hit "Suffer. Not. The. Alien. To. Live." To me it encapsulated everything that I think are cool about Space Marines. 

[jlmb_123]

Not really chaplain lucifer, i don't really want to field those units because of their rules (as i find them too bland and generic for what they are supposed to be) but still i like their lore as it makes the character of the chapter quite unique (the whole circles of secrecy thing).

 

In fairness, teh generic rules for generic Space Marine bikes and Terminators are a bit more ... generic than those for Deathwing and Ravenwing. Plus Dark Angels have an extra Terminator type, and extra type of bike and two extra Land Speeder versions. 

 

I think there are Dark Angels Successors who don't have the same organisation but for the reason that they're not part of the Unforgiven. They may be, for example, created using the geneseed of the Dark Angels Legion sometime after the Second Founding but have no relationship with the Chapter/s which were formed from the original Legion. In this csae, they'd be autonomous and created by the order of the administration on Terra with no reference to the Dark Angels at all and never get their.

 

The way I see it, given the newer background, you can be a Successor and not be part of the Unforgiven group, but you can't be Unforgiven and not have the same chapter organisation, which is designed to facilitate the Hunt.

[nusphigor]

What I like is the Dark Angel's push loyalty and obedience but are somehow ingrained be it through teaching/genetic engineering to doubt and question. 

I am sure the gradual unravelling of the Fallen has a large part to play. But the juxtaposition of Loyalty to the Chapter! while simultaneously finding out many of the truths the Chapter promulgated are in fact half truths if not outright lies. I enjoy this aspect but sometimes I just want to see the Dark Angels crush some heretics, aliens, or mutants with no lingering shadow of the Hunt at play. 

One of my favorite scenes in all of 40k was Boreas taking his Crozius to orks and with every hit "Suffer. Not. The. Alien. To. Live." To me it encapsulated everything that I think are cool about Space Marines. 

 

Actually this is the very same reason why i liked the storm of vengeance campaign (minus the ending). besides namaan rocks

 

 

Not really chaplain lucifer, i don't really want to field those units because of their rules (as i find them too bland and generic for what they are supposed to be) but still i like their lore as it makes the character of the chapter quite unique (the whole circles of secrecy thing).

 

In fairness, teh generic rules for generic Space Marine bikes and Terminators are a bit more ... generic than those for Deathwing and Ravenwing. Plus Dark Angels have an extra Terminator type, and extra type of bike and two extra Land Speeder versions. 

 

I think there are Dark Angels Successors who don't have the same organisation but for the reason that they're not part of the Unforgiven. They may be, for example, created using the geneseed of the Dark Angels Legion sometime after the Second Founding but have no relationship with the Chapter/s which were formed from the original Legion. In this csae, they'd be autonomous and created by the order of the administration on Terra with no reference to the Dark Angels at all and never get their.

 

The way I see it, given the newer background, you can be a Successor and not be part of the Unforgiven group, but you can't be Unforgiven and not have the same chapter organisation, which is designed to facilitate the Hunt.

 

 

thank you frater jimb, its is clearer now.

 

So, i think the idea will be to use a non-unforgiven successor chapter but using the generic codex+dark angels chapter tactics on the table? is that possible?

I am planning a small narrative campaign with different factions, so no gw store or tournament playing at the moment, that is why i am more concerned with the lore than anything because i want to reflect each faction as best as i can.

 

thanks guys

[MoK]

I don't believe it is possible. If you use Dark Angel Chapter Stratigums and tactics you have to use Dark Angel rules/Codex. If you want to use generic Marine rules, then just have a generic chapter but say in your fluff that it is suspected that the chapters geneseed came from the Dark Angels.

[Bryan Blaire]

If you are playing on the table-top with like minded people that accept it, anything is possible.

[nusphigor]

oh well, thank you for your answers guys.

i might have to use the vainilla codex then :/