"Fixing" Commissars & Conscripts

[HenricusTyranicus]

But more to the point.....will GW actually nerf conscripts? Making a unit that requires people to buy 30-150 models from them good is sound business. Making elite units better than that unit is not, by itself. If it gets to the point that people are quitting 40k, or the game isn't fun because it's nothing but the same horde of conscripts fighting each other, then that's bad for business. But from their point of view, short of that, conscripts being one of the best 5 units in the game is just good. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

 

Just make it so Conscripts don't fill compulsory troop slots, and give them the auxila regiment.

Problem is that Auxilia has no officers, so now they can't take orders, so you've effectively nerfed them and punished guard players. I do like the can't be used to fill a compulsory troops slot idea, but that smacks of 30k and since simplicity is the thing this edition, I don't know if GW will go for that.

 

 

That was the point.

 

So you want to punish guard players for a unit they're not even abusing? I liked the idea about them being support troops, in that they can't be used to fill a compulsory troops slot, but without them being able to take orders it screws with the whole faction's deal. An infantry unit that can't take orders messes with the whole guard dynamic. The old meta is dead, and thank God for it, it was starting to get toxic. Now everything is viable, and I like that Guard can actually compete now, so let's not screw that up.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

This thread just let some of the air out of my fun baloon. I had intended to gather a conscrip unit and Commissar to add to my =][= force. Now I feel like it would be to net listy. Le sigh. Back to the lab......l Edited September 12, 2017 by Lord Lorne Walkier

[Halfpint100]

This thread just let some of the air out of my fun baloon. I had intended to gather a conscrip unit and Commissar to add to my =][= force. Now I feel like it would be to net listy. Le sigh. Back to the lab......l

Wait till the dex. They might not change anything!

[Plasmablasts]

If one wants to restrict Conscripts to armies which are primarily Guard armies, simplest solution would be "Conscripts may only be taken as part of a Brigade detachment".

[Guardsman Bob]

So has anyone else enjoyed an ironic chuckle over the melodrama? As far as I can tell the only reason Conspripts were introduced was in part because of how terrible regular Infantry Squads were. If anything it was a miracle GW didn't create a whole new Troop choice made to force market sales.

[Captain_Krash]

Conscripts have been around for a long time now, 4th/5th edition and so on. I've never had an issue with fielding 100-150 models on the board even in 7th it was easy and extremely effective. It was the tanks that made Guard lose most games last edition.

 

Krash

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I really want to add Conscripts to my army, and if I'm to be honest, I really want them to stay as is. I use DKoK rules with my models, even though they're mostly Cadian. The way I envision it is that my Army are Disciplined and Hardened troops that escaped the Fall of Cadia, making them almost akin to Krieg in terms of tenacity and ability. I would still like to add a patrol detachment with 100 conscripts (I'd probably pick up 100 chaos cultists and remove the chaosy bits) a couple of Commissars (for discipline) and a Company Commander (for orders). 

 

I liked the idea of the penal legion squads from 5th edition, and I used them a couple of times, and I loved them. My idea is that because Cadia has fallen There are no more Whiteshields to be had, and so a regiment (or lost battalion as it were) such as mine would need bodies to throw away, considering my Kasrkin (grenadiers) are the bulk of the force now with only a few regular guardsmen. So I would use conscripts as Penal Legion Conscripts.

 

I know this is the place for trying to fix what's broken with conscripts and not how to model them. I really like the idea of the unit, It's the only thing guard has which can be fielded in significant numbers. This is important since our infantry squads can no longer group up. Since platoons are gone, that means our only horde unit is now conscripts. Any efforts to "fix" conscripts should be confined to making it difficult for other armies to capitalize on the benefits, and force them to rely on their own army's mechanics. 

 

I'd maybe recommend to tournament organizers that it should be they that regulate tourney players to using one ally, and that it may not exceed 20% of their army. 2 squads of 50 conscripts each, 2 commissars, and a company commander is, at minimum, 404 points. That's roughly 22% of 1850. That means they'd have to shave some points off the detachment to get down to about 370 points, which would mean the commissars would have to be bare bones in order to maximize the number of conscripts, which only leaves them at 92 total conscripts. Not a drastic reduction I know. So if we went to 15% of thee total force we could get the points total for an ally down to 278 points (roughly). That makes for 2 bare bones commissars, a bare bones company commander, and 62 total conscripts. That would drastically reduce the efficacy of the conscript spam in tournaments.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I think as others have stated, the problem is Imperial Soup in tournaments, which is a difficult problem to fix given how GW fragmented a lot of stuff, and it allows for a lot of fluffy play. Personally I wish I could convert a dock worker style Conscript to field, to recreate that chapter in Helsreach where Grimaldus levees the workers on the dock to fight with them, and they have literally a couple of hours to train with the Steel Legion Storm Troopers before the Orks make land. It's a great narrative thing and would be a great modelling opportunity, (if I could only find suitable and cheap models!)

 

I feel nerfing Conscripts just dumps on Guard for something that it isn't doing. Of course tournament lists are spamming the most powerful units, it's what they've always done. Nerfing Conscripts will just change what spam list dominates the tables.

[PliskinAJ]

I still think conscripts in a vacuum are fine. They suck and shooting, suck at melee and they only redeeming value is that they die like a guardsmen. Commissar support does make them significantly better but not broken. 

 

When I see lists that have just conscripts at the troops this is where it gets broken. Due to the nature of the key word rules for forces you cannot do a limited allies since that really doesn't exist. You can't do must be in a brigade as you can have a mostly SM brigade and then 150 conscripts. 

 

I see the only way to fix the issue is make them take a tax unit of 2-3 line infantry squads. Its been said before and I think its the only real option other than ditching them and allowing line infantry to combine but then you just shift the issue when titan player decides to take 3x 40 guardsmen as cannon fodder. 

 

The tax untis keep the army in a good fluff aspect and its a 80-120 point tax to take a conscript squad effectively doubling the cost of the conscripts if you just want conscripts. 

 

There is one other option I just thought of that might be an ok solution. Have the conscripts be auxiliary but still in the regiment. This makes them so they do not get the normal commissar discipline. Instead have them have Junior Commissar bought per squad like a Runt Herder for gretchen. This makes it so one commissar can't hold the line for 100+ conscripts. Instead each one only boosts their squad and they are still susceptible to sniper fire. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I still think conscripts in a vacuum are fine. They suck and shooting, suck at melee and they only redeeming value is that they die like a guardsmen. Commissar support does make them significantly better but not broken. 

This is pretty much the quandary. As CoffeeGrunt said, the problem seems to be isolated to tournament imperial soup lists. The real issue is not the commissar, it's not orders, it's not even the numbers. It's how they synergize with Guilliman. 

 

The problem is that Guilliman's Master of Battle ability grants all imperial units within 12" a +1 to advance and charge rolls, re-rolls to hit on 1's, and re-rolls on failed morale tests. That coupled with a commissar's aura of discipline granting the commissar's leadership to units within 6" and the summary execution stopping failed morale tests from killing more than 1 model, make conscripts better at shooting, better at moving, better at charging, and really really tanky, especially if the squad starts 50 strong. That's a lot of turns to kill off the board. Add order to the mix, and you can have the conscripts fall back, only to charge back into the fray so they can fight first. It's a huge points investment to make conscripts truly terrifying, and it only really synergizes well with Ultramarines (Considering they get buffs for Guilliman). 

 

The big issue here is that, of course, it's a really accessible combo. 

 

 

I still think conscripts in a vacuum are fine. They suck and shooting, suck at melee and they only redeeming value is that they die like a guardsmen. Commissar support does make them significantly better but not broken. 

 

When I see lists that have just conscripts at the troops this is where it gets broken. Due to the nature of the key word rules for forces you cannot do a limited allies since that really doesn't exist. You can't do must be in a brigade as you can have a mostly SM brigade and then 150 conscripts. 

 

I see the only way to fix the issue is make them take a tax unit of 2-3 line infantry squads. Its been said before and I think its the only real option other than ditching them and allowing line infantry to combine but then you just shift the issue when titan player decides to take 3x 40 guardsmen as cannon fodder. 

 

The tax untis keep the army in a good fluff aspect and its a 80-120 point tax to take a conscript squad effectively doubling the cost of the conscripts if you just want conscripts. 

Since the crux of the issue is tournaments, I think that the tournament organizers should put restrictions on allies by percentage (based on points or model count, whichever is greater). This way it balances the play, and forces players to play their primary army. 

 

I don't see this being as much a problem with casual play. Tournament play seems to be the main issue. 

 

There is one other option I just thought of that might be an ok solution. Have the conscripts be auxiliary but still in the regiment. This makes them so they do not get the normal commissar discipline. Instead have them have Junior Commissar bought per squad like a Runt Herder for gretchen. This makes it so one commissar can't hold the line for 100+ conscripts. Instead each one only boosts their squad and they are still susceptible to sniper fire. 

Thing is, We already have that. It's just the regular Commissar. And while a Commissar's 6" bubble can buff 2 squads of conscripts, you're basically looking at running infantry blocks of conscripts at about 6-8" apart max to do it well. Also, while this is best discussed in the Orks section of the Xenos (filth) boards, Runtherds are almost exactly the same thing as commissars now. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

Wait, they finally added Xenos boards?

 

*Runs away forever.*

[duz_]

Wait, they finally added Xenos boards?

 

*Runs away forever.*

Yes Coffee the rumours are true if you scroll all the way down into the underhives of B&C you'll see the filth and smell stench of the links to the xenos forums. However best you dont stray from the Emperors light and you should hang out in the barracks instead. ;)

[Baluc]

The idea of constripts was always that they were less than gaurdsmen. However currently they take succesful orders just like normal gaurdsmen, and actually get more point for point out of them. But that isn't actually the issue or why people are taking them. Its not for how they shoot, or how they can be buffed.

Its because they a) take a lot of space up, b) die at an acceptable rate, c) can be realy fast if need be,  d) most people don't speck to kill 200 models, in a reasonable time frame, e) fill troops in a CP battery. If the only order they could take was Move!x3 They would still be a competitive staple. 

 

Everything else is consiquential on already having a AM detachment, the Scions/Elysians plasma units, and all that nonsense. I had a discussion locally that short of jacking the cost way up through points, or changing their slot or how they fill slots would stop me from taking 3 units in a purely competitive stance. Just being there they do too much. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

The idea of constripts was always that they were less than gaurdsmen. However currently they take succesful orders just like normal gaurdsmen, and actually get more point for point out of them. But that isn't actually the issue or why people are taking them. Its not for how they shoot, or how they can be buffed.

Which is exactly why we don't want them nerfed for guard, because they're one of our few stand out units right now. 

 

 

Its because they a) take a lot of space up, die at an acceptable rate, c) can be realy fast if need be,  d) most people don't speck to kill 200 models, in a reasonable time frame, e) fill troops in a CP battery. If the only order they could take was Move!x3 They would still be a competitive staple. 

a. You're right. They do make for effective board control.

b. Without buffs to make them stick, like commissars, officers, or Guilliman they die faster, or will break and run. 

c. With orders like move, move, move! you're absolutely right. 

d. How exactly do you kill 200 models in a reasonable time without templates? Massed fire, but guard is really the only army that's going to do that well...

e. Don't know exactly what you're getting at here.

 

I'm not arguing that conscripts are bad. In fact, conscripts are good, and I want to be able to use them. I'm saying that nerfing them is not the answer. Making it difficult to gain access to them is the better option. You shouldn't punish Guard players for something that was designed to work in their army, because non guard players are abusing the rules to make broken tourney combos. That's on the organizers to balance that.

 

 

Everything else is consiquential on already having a AM detachment, the Scions/Elysians plasma units, and all that nonsense. I had a discussion locally that short of jacking the cost way up through points, or changing their slot or how they fill slots would stop me from taking 3 units in a purely competitive stance. Just being there they do too much. 

My proposed rule is that, unless your warlord has the Astra Militarum Keyword, conscripts do not count for filling compulsory troops slots.  I also think that tournament organizers should balance the tournaments. Basically, since GW no longer sponsors tournament play, they are not responsible for, or concerned with, how tournaments work. Simple. This issue is squarely in the "only affects tournament players" category where all the WAACtards gather. Don't punish the casual players for something that they're not doing. Points percentages for allies are probably the easiest way to do this, with an exception placed on Allied Lords of War. As a general ruling 85% of your points needs to come from a single faction that is what you declared you would use upon entering the tournament. If it's a Space Marine army, then your army needs to be mostly space marines. 

 

I've said it for a long time, tournaments are where fun goes to die. This is why I don't play in tournaments.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Ulrik_Ironfist

[Beams]

Eh. I kill a lot of Conscripts with Sisters of battle (12 pt Stormbolters with 3+ armor, and 17 pt Flamers with 5 in a squad of 5 or 5 and 5 Bolters in a squad of 10), and I've had little problems with non elite Grey Knight builds (focus on strikes, Interceptors with a few heavy units such as Grand Master Dreadknights)

 

I imagine a well built Salamanders army or imperial fist army wouldn't have trouble, and a single squad of Ork boys should rip through Conscripts like butter.

 

I think the biggest problem is nonguard Elite armies are using cheap conscripts troops to buff their numbers and command points, and that other players are stuck in the 7th edition Super friends and Elite low model count army style death matches, and haven't figured out how to play vs hordes.

 

The easiest fix is to only allow one blob of Conscripts per guard only detachment.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Eh. I kill a lot of Conscripts with Sisters of battle (12 pt Stormbolters with 3+ armor, and 17 pt Flamers with 5 in a squad of 5 or 5 and 5 Bolters in a squad of 10), and I've had little problems with non elite Grey Knight builds (focus on strikes, Interceptors with a few heavy units such as Grand Master Dreadknights)

I forgot that Stormbolters became rapid fire 2. That makes my wolf guard a heck of a lot better...

 

 

I imagine a well built Salamanders army or imperial fist army wouldn't have trouble, and a single squad of Ork boys should rip through Conscripts like butter.

I imagine that a well built anything army that capitalizes on BS3+ shooting and/or WS3+ combat that can put out a significant number of shots or attacks will be able to wipe out conscripts. For instance, at 12" my Stormbolter WG will put out 40 shots, and then 31 attacks, in first turn of combat, all hitting on 3+ and wounding conscripts on 3+. That's going to chew through a pretty significant chunck of those conscripts. 

 

 

I think the biggest problem is nonguard Elite armies are using cheap conscripts troops to buff their numbers and command points, and that other players are stuck in the 7th edition Super friends and Elite low model count army style death matches, and haven't figured out how to play vs hordes.

Yep. That and Synergy between abilities in different Imperial Faction armies.

 

 

The easiest fix is to only allow one blob of Conscripts per guard only detachment.

That might be good for tournaments. But bad for casual play. I really want to field two blocks of 50 conscripts to screen for my DKoK army. 

[Guardsman Bob]

The rule book section for Match Play actually talks about having a discussion on game restrictions or limits. I can only imagine how many torunies and apocalypse games could have been saved from poopy Wardcrons.

[Withershadow]

 

The easiest fix is to only allow one blob of Conscripts per guard only detachment.

 

That might be good for tournaments. But bad for casual play. I really want to field two blocks of 50 conscripts to screen for my DKoK army.

This comes across to me as super obnoxious. So you use Cadian models to represent Krieg, which is somewhat cringe but okay, and then use what I presume are more Cadian models to represent Conscripts? At least if they were differentiated by model-type, you could say that Krieg was sent to reinforce a badly outnumbered PDF or something of the sort, but just cherry picking the best detachment rules with no attempt to reflect that in the models themselves seems the very antithesis of what casual play should be about. In a tournament I couldn't say anything because the TO allowed it, so I would just grit my teeth and focus on erasing you from the table. In a casual setting, we'd be playing someone else.

 

Now if that's not what you're doing, and are instead saying your Karskins are Krieg Grenadiers rather than Tempestus, and using regular Cadian models for conscripts, that's perfectly fine, but that's not what I've gathered from your prior postings on the subject. If I can't differentiate what is what, then it's the same as proxies.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Withershadow

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

This comes across to me as super obnoxious. So you use Cadian models to represent Krieg, which is somewhat cringe but okay, and then use what I presume are more Cadian models to represent Conscripts? At least if they were differentiated by model-type, you could say that Krieg was sent to reinforce a badly outnumbered PDF or something of the sort, but just cherry picking the best detachment rules with no attempt to reflect that in the models themselves seems the very antithesis of what casual play should be about. In a tournament I couldn't say anything because the TO allowed it, so I would just grit my teeth and focus on erasing you from the table. In a casual setting, we'd be playing someone else.

I'll respond to your point when i get to the second part of your post. But I'm not just proxying models. I'm also not trying to cherry pick rules, per se. I would be using different model types, to mark the disconnect, which I'll describe when I get to that. I agree that cherry picking for rules benefits is obnoxious.

 

 

Now if that's not what you're doing, and are instead saying your Karskins are Krieg Grenadiers rather than Tempestus, and using regular Cadian models for conscripts, that's perfectly fine, but that's not what I've gathered from your prior postings on the subject. If I can't differentiate what is what, then it's the same as proxies.

Ok, so you're basically dead on here. I'm using Cadian models, representing a homebrew Cadian Regiment (the 77th Cadian, somewhat loosely based on the 77th US Div from WW1, the parent unit of the famed "Lost Battalion"). I'm using Krieg rules to represent their hardened veteran status, and stubborn refusal to surrender. I am using Kasrkin as Krieg Grenadiers, and Regular Cadians as my Guardsmen. In fact I have more grenadiers (4 squads) than regular line squads (3 Squads), because my concept says that the outfit is depleted and most of the survivors are the hardened vets. 

 

Since Cadia fell, there would be no more whiteshields to be had, so the conscripts would be taken from wherever they can get them, and my idea was that my conscripts would be a rabble from a penal world. To represent this, I'd be using Chaos cultists, with the chaos-y parts removed, to make them look like an emergency solution to the problem of needing bodies. 

 

I hope that clears up what I'm doing and why I want to keep conscripts the way they are. 

 

That might be good for tournaments. But bad for casual play. I really want to field two blocks of 50 conscripts to screen for my DKoK army. 

I refer to it as a DKoK army, because those are the rules I'm playing by for the bulk of my army, so I say that to differentiate the rules and playstyle from Standard AM Cadians, it's also just easier than trying to explain it every single time. Does that make any sense?

[patchestheclown]

Wow so this thing really blew up :)

 

One of the constant refrains I keep hearing in the posts is "conscripts aren't broken" and "don't punish guard players" here are some of my thoughts/issues with these statements.

 

"Conscripts aren't broken" then how come they are used so much and spammed in every competitive army? Are there other super spammed units, absolutely! I hate the fact that 12 psykers in a guard/renegade army is a thing too I just don't have any easy to parse thoughts on how to fix them. So yes there are other spammable/broken units but to just say that "conscripts aren't broken" because they die super easy or don't really output much damage I think is missing the point.

Why are conscripts being used? They are hyper effective for their points and there is no easy way to chew through them efficiently. Orders make the weaknesses of conscripts negligible (more shots, more attacks, better movement, etc) so why would you ever bring regular guardsmen to fill your troop slots? The only solution to conscripts is to pour attacks into them but by doing that you aren't shooting/assaulting the truly lethal stuff in the guard army and morale shocking them out of existence (like you can do with chaos goats, or boyz) the commissar will make it so that the enemy has to spend more than 1 round to deal with a full 50man blob.

 

"Don't punish guard players" well then guard players should stop abusing what they've been given! "Oh but its not REAL guard players its all the imperial soup players"  A minor change to conscripts or commissars isn't going to invalidate your army because you didn't build your army around conscripts did you? You had largish blobs of guardsmen from 7th edition and now your just counting them as conscripts cause that's the smarter play right now. This is a game where we constantly tinker with lists and try new things as rules/codexes are released. I hope no one has created 1 list from the beginning of 8th and never once changed it and will refuse to change it once the codex comes out.

 

Last thought, I do agree that this is putting the cart before the horse in trying to fix something which is currently the "hot stuff" when not everythings been put out yet. It was just a fun thought exercise, IDK about you but my friend group goes on for hours proposing our fixes for the game from everything from terrain to specific units.

[Captain_Krash]

@patchestheclown

 

All I heard/played against last edtion was SM free transport spam, multiple wraith knights, and necron Decurion in competitive/casual play. Telling "guard players that we should stop abusing what they've been given!" Is utterly preposterous...people need to adjust there play styles if they can't take on conscripts and if they can't well too bad, we suffered for editions with problematic codex's now we have something strong it's "OMG NURF GUARD, MY 7TH STYLE LIST CAN BEAT THEM"

 

I say it's about time that the other faction players should be on the opposite end of the lasgun. It's been far too long.

 

Krash 

[Vel'Cona]

In my experience painting requirements work wonders for decreasing horde spam, especially with "flavour of the week" players.  I'm very curious how/if GW will attempt to balance the "Conscript Problem," in either case.

[PliskinAJ]

Conscripts are broken right now because we have a cherry picking system of picking units. Armies that are good but are balanced because they don't have a 3 pt cannon fodder unit now can get 100 of them for the cost 6 terminators. 

 

To get conscripts nearly as good as they are now with the old force org you had to give up 1 of your 2 HQs for a lord commissar, now its a good incentive to take 3+ on top of this there was one conscript squad per platoon a  150+ point "tax" to unlock them. This in previous editions you would see 1-2 squads at a maximum in guard lists.

 

AND in previous editions allies almost always broke the game. 

 

I really don't like the idea of its about time we get a broken unit. I really think the unit selection process allows them to be broken.

[Tyr13]

Pretty sure the main problem is the removal of blob squads. Before, you could have lots of lasguns, special weapons, even power weapons within a single squad. Great to maximise buffs from support characters, like orders. But now? FRFSRF is great with lots of lasguns, not so much (though still good) when some of your models have other weapons. That means you have to give more orders, or look to a different unit. And consripts losing their platoon requirements makes them the perfect choice to make them play similar to the old blob-guard. Ally systems just make it worse, since now armies that were never supposed to play with cheap units get easy and nearly unlimited access to conscripts.

 

So yeah, pretty sure thats the main issue there. The obvious fix would be to add the removed requirements back in. Conscripts would still see the table in the absence of "classic" blob squads, but having to unlock them by taking 2-3 infantry squads would certainly limit their appeal somewhat, as well as limiting the overall number of them that can be taken at all (since those unlock-squads also cost points).

Hell, you could even make conscripts take a unique FOC slot that only guard have access to if you *really* wanted to limit their usage.