"Fixing" Commissars & Conscripts

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

"Conscripts aren't broken" then how come they are used so much and spammed in every competitive army? Are there other super spammed units, absolutely! I hate the fact that 12 psykers in a guard/renegade army is a thing too I just don't have any easy to parse thoughts on how to fix them. So yes there are other spammable/broken units but to just say that "conscripts aren't broken" because they die super easy or don't really output much damage I think is missing the point.

Conscripts haven't changed much from last edition. Hordes were not the strongest thing last edition, because of the availability of ways to deal with hordes. Many weapons had templates, and the way that worked was that anything the template touched got hit (which could result in some hefty amounts of hits). Also with the AP mechanic that just negated the armor save, it made it really easy to delete large blobs of guys. That made crowd control easy. Now that templates have been dropped in favor of random numbers of shots, it's harder to delete blobs in one go. That's why they get Spammed.

 

 

Why are conscripts being used? They are hyper effective for their points and there is no easy way to chew through them efficiently. Orders make the weaknesses of conscripts negligible (more shots, more attacks, better movement, etc) so why would you ever bring regular guardsmen to fill your troop slots? The only solution to conscripts is to pour attacks into them but by doing that you aren't shooting/assaulting the truly lethal stuff in the guard army and morale shocking them out of existence (like you can do with chaos goats, or boyz) the commissar will make it so that the enemy has to spend more than 1 round to deal with a full 50man blob.

Your point is invalid because conscripts have always been hyper points efficient. Hell, they even lost the one thing that made them super effective last edition (I refer to priests). The impenetrable conscript tarpit of doom is no longer viable because priests are no longer natively available to guard. Now you can't lock down that Wraithknight in combat for 7 turns because of fearless. 

 

Now, I'll grant you that conscripts being only available in the platoon structure of previous editions balanced them out quite a bit. 

 

 

"Don't punish guard players" well then guard players should stop abusing what they've been given! "Oh but its not REAL guard players its all the imperial soup players"  A minor change to conscripts or commissars isn't going to invalidate your army because you didn't build your army around conscripts did you? You had largish blobs of guardsmen from 7th edition and now your just counting them as conscripts cause that's the smarter play right now. This is a game where we constantly tinker with lists and try new things as rules/codexes are released. I hope no one has created 1 list from the beginning of 8th and never once changed it and will refuse to change it once the codex comes out.

Um... Guard players are not abusing conscripts. It's a legitimate unit in our TO&E. It is not a unit that is native to Space Marines, or even FW Guard (though it's hardly game breaking for Krieg or Elysians, considering the clash in playstyle), or any other Imperial army. So it is the Imperial Soup players that are doing it, and Guard shouldn't be blamed for it, nor should we Guard Players be punished for it.

 

Which leads me to...

 

All I heard/played against last edtion was SM free transport spam, multiple wraith knights, and necron Decurion in competitive/casual play. Telling "guard players that we should stop abusing what they've been given!" Is utterly preposterous...people need to adjust their play styles if they can't take on conscripts, and if they can't well too bad, we suffered for editions with problematic codex's now we have something strong it's "OMG NURF GUARD, MY 7TH STYLE LIST CAN BEAT THEM"

Agreed. Guard is one of those armies that not everyone plays. Hell, last edition, when everyone else got awesome powered up Decurion Style Detachments, Guard got Shafted. Ours was too points intensive, and too cumbersome to play efficiently, and so we got left behind the power curve yet again. Now Guard has the ability to compete on equal footing and that's coupled with drastic changes to the metagame.

 

I'm not saying that its good that Guard has a broken unit. I don't particularly think that conscripts are broken. What is broken is the way templates were phased out, and the system's allowance of cherry picking. 

 

But, since this seems to be isolated to tournaments (mostly), the onus should be on tournament organizers. Other than that, if a WAACtard wants to play a "friendly" game with his "flavor of the week" "net list", you tell him to go pound sand. It's that easy, because in casual play you have the right to ask to see your opponent's list, and if you don't feel like playing against it, you don't have to. That person will either revise their list, or they won't get to play. If they want to be toxic to your community, they community will invite them to leave. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

Remove the Imperium Keyword. It's too vague, too broad, and allows for too much cherry picking. You could section things off easier. For example have an Astra Militarum one that encompasses the traditional Guard units, an Adepta Sororitas one for the same, etc, etc.

 

Imperial Soup goes away overnight.

 

As far as Conscripts being broken because they're spammed, that's a case of blaming the dog really, isn't it? Most anything is ridiculous if it's spammed, because it skews hard against balanced all-comer's lists. Tournaments are built around spamming things. If Conscripts were 5pts per model they'd still be the only horde unit Imperium has easy access to in an edition where they can access 50% of the units in the game freely and where hordes are more powerful than previously.

 

Also Infantry Squads still very much have a place as the cheapest means to fill Troop slots and also carry useful upgrades.

[Guardsman Bob]

Deleted - can't clarify the response enough. Edited September 21, 2017 by Guardsman Bob

[Brother Captain Ed]

Again the problem isn't conscripts. It's the ruthless spamming of the most points efficient models in every slot. Conscripts happened to be the most brutally efficient choice in an edition that Rewards efficient choices.

 

Warmachine solved this problem with the Field Allowance mechanic. By limiting certain units to a specific number, you can stop lists where the best choice as simply repeated until points run out.

[HenricusTyranicus]

Again the problem isn't conscripts. It's the ruthless spamming of the most points efficient models in every slot. Conscripts happened to be the most brutally efficient choice in an edition that Rewards efficient choices.

 

Warmachine solved this problem with the Field Allowance mechanic. By limiting certain units to a specific number, you can stop lists where the best choice as simply repeated until points run out.

Or you could steal the Total War series multiplayer mechanic, where you get x number of units for the base price, and after that they go up in price. So you can spam units if you want, but it increasingly becomes less effective. 

[Schlitzaf]

I think the easiest fix for Conscripts, (and Imperial Soup in general) would be for all units in a Battle Forged Army have to share one Faction Keyword (as it is currently) AND additionally all Units within Battleforged Detachment must share atleast Two Faction Keyword.*

 

So if you want AM and Marines you need Two Detachments. Sense Space Marines don't have Astra Militarum and Astra Militarum don't have Adeptus Astartes. And obviously do not share (Regiment) and (Chapter).

 

 

*Inquisition, Authority of Inquisition Special Rule would be changed to include to "Only needs to Share 1 Universal Keyword with other units for Battle Forged Detachment"

[Withershadow]

That makes no sense, since 99% of these lists do use separate detachments.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Ok. So, I don't want to kill imperial soup for casual play. I'm going to keep saying it, this is a problem mainly (read: almost exclusively) in tournaments, so, the onus is on the TO to balance their event. 

 

Other than that, if someone is playing a list that is intended to be powergamey cheese, in a friendly game, you tell them to pound sand.

 

I'm going to keep saying this. I want to be able to field my Cadian Armored Cav (DKoK rules) with some Raven Guard support, or with 3 Imperial Knights, or with Space Wolves support, or whatever the hell else I feel like bringing to the table. 

 

Now, the best solution I've heard is that conscripts cannot fill compulsory troops slots.

Maybe I'd say, in addition to or in place of, that only one squad of conscripts may be taken unless 2 or more detachments share the <Astra Militarum> keyword. That means 50 conscripts max for any given ally. 

 

So IG gets to field all the conscripts they want (because of course we're going to take Infantry or Stormie squads), and other Imperial armies don't. 

 

Don't go whinging about "NURF GUARD PLS, HOARDS OP!" Just because we have one standout unit. Space Marines of all flavors now have Primaris Marines which are super good. 

[Captain_Krash]

How about official tournaments..."No allies" Boooommm it would never happen sadly but I wish it were so. Make people use their armies the way they are intended at least like old times.

 

Krash

Edited September 22, 2017 by Captain_Krash

[Tirak]

Ok. So, I don't want to kill imperial soup for casual play. I'm going to keep saying it, this is a problem mainly (read: almost exclusively) in tournaments, so, the onus is on the TO to balance their event. 

 

Other than that, if someone is playing a list that is intended to be powergamey cheese, in a friendly game, you tell them to pound sand.

 

I'm going to keep saying this. I want to be able to field my Cadian Armored Cav (DKoK rules) with some Raven Guard support, or with 3 Imperial Knights, or with Space Wolves support, or whatever the hell else I feel like bringing to the table. 

 

Now, the best solution I've heard is that conscripts cannot fill compulsory troops slots.

Maybe I'd say, in addition to or in place of, that only one squad of conscripts may be taken unless 2 or more detachments share the <Astra Militarum> keyword. That means 50 conscripts max for any given ally. 

 

So IG gets to field all the conscripts they want (because of course we're going to take Infantry or Stormie squads), and other Imperial armies don't. 

 

Don't go whinging about "NURF GUARD PLS, HOARDS OP!" Just because we have one standout unit. Space Marines of all flavors now have Primaris Marines which are super good. 

 

I bring 2 squads of conscripts and 4 squads of infantry, suddenly I can't fill my brigade despite having 100 infantry on the field? It will do nothing to resolve the issue as people will just take the Auxiliary detachment. The best idea I've heard is the platoon tax. 1 HQ and 2 Troops per 1 Conscript.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I bring 2 squads of conscripts and 4 squads of infantry, suddenly I can't fill my brigade despite having 100 infantry on the field? It will do nothing to resolve the issue as people will just take the Auxiliary detachment. The best idea I've heard is the platoon tax. 1 HQ and 2 Troops per 1 Conscript.

I really think that the best thing is for TO's to institute percentage limits on allies. GW does need to do something to fix the state of the game, since hordes are difficult to deal with, but nerfing conscripts is not it. 

 

We'll really need to see what the codex does.

[FallenSoldiers]

Or just have your TO make the rule <Imperium> and <Chaos> are not enough keywords to share.

 

People screaming about nerfing a unit when the majority of armies don't have a Codex yet need to slow down.

[The Catachan Devil]

Conscripts have become very common recently.

It seems that the biggest problem is that they are being used as screening units for Spess mareens, and are effective. 

 

One option you have is to simply have benefits to people who bring a 'pure' army, and disadvantages to those who have different chapters or just use the 'imperium' keyword. This would discourage that. 

 

Now nerfing conscripts for IG is utterly ridiculous because there are so many other potent horde units out there. Take for instance Orks, they are 6 points/ model and are WS3+ S4 T4 6+sv. However get them near a pain boy and a Kustom force field and they get a 5++ inv and a 5+FNP - which is very similar to a 3++ sv.  So for 6 points you essentially get a space marine who can't shoot very well - for half the price of an actual SM. AND their leadership is ridiculous, you are very unlikely to see an ork with a leadership lower than 30. ALL THIS FOR 6 POINTS.

So my WS5+ BS 5+ S3 T3 Sv5+ for 3 points is actually quite well priced in comparison. Who cares about commisars. Ork boys have it so much better. 
 

 

 

So I'm going to make a different approach to this. 

 

Don't mess with commissars OR conscripts - make leman russes better.

 

The reason why conscripts are so prolific is because we don't really have any other solid units as a result they get taken a lot.

 

Currently, since the templates have gone from 40k LRs are rubbish. By making Tank armies more competitive, more players will want to take them and engage in a different style of play and less likely to spam conscripts to such a great abundance.  

Edited September 23, 2017 by The Catachan Devil

[Halfpint100]

With having disadvantages for taking single faction armies.

What about assassins? Or inquisition? They are only viable in imperial soup lists. Remove that and they become harder to take. But they are fun!

[The Catachan Devil]

With having disadvantages for taking single faction armies.

What about assassins? Or inquisition? They are only viable in imperial soup lists. Remove that and they become harder to take. But they are fun!

 

 

Yeah they are fun, assassins are great. Not always effective, but such a cool model. 

 

I don't know really. Maybe if they bring in a rule that a secondary army can't be more than x% of the total army or over a certain power level?. 

 

From what I understand some tournaments don't allow armies with just the "Imperium" key word anyway.  So they might have beaten GW to the punch anyway, meaning there will probably be no 'non-pure' army restrictions released.

Edited September 24, 2017 by The Catachan Devil

[FallenSoldiers]

"Conscripts, for example, have been changed to better reflect their inferior discipline compared to professional soldiers."

 

What do we think this implies? No more orders?

[Halfpint100]

We will see in a few weeks

[Tyr13]

Either no access to orders, restricted access to orders (ie, pass a ld check) or the interaction with commissars may have changed... hard to tell...

[Kinstryfe]

I think the best fix may be for guard, Mechanicus, sisters, and Marines to lose the Imperium keyword. Units that have the Imperium keyword still (Inquisitors, assassins, etc) are considered battleforged so long as the rest of the detachment/army has one of the other Imperium subfaction keywords. This would restrict the big 4 factions, while still allowing units meant to be allies to be allies.

 

It just seems kind of ridiculous that GW's response to "too many Marine players are using a Guard unit" is "lets ruin the Guard unit".

[The Catachan Devil]

"Conscripts, for example, have been changed to better reflect their inferior discipline compared to professional soldiers."

 

What do we think this implies? No more orders?

 

 

Where did you get this quote? Is it reliable?

 

If it is then I'd guess conscripts now use orders differently now and or interact with commissars differently.

[duz_]

That's directly off the warhammer community page post today

 

Tbh I wouldn't be upset if the only nerf conscripts got was no orders

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I was unable to quit my idea of conscripts. I have kept them bare bones, 20 strong, with no officers of any kind. They follow my =][= lord. I would be happy if they were fixed so the spammers look elsewhere.

[CaptainMarsh]

I would be happy with them losing access to Orders to some degree, even up to all of them. Maybe they have to take a leadership test? Either way, Conscripts become less scary if they can't get orders. They are still an effective unit, but I think it would go a long way to balancing them.

[FallenSoldiers]

I just don't want to lose the only source of large squads we have access to currently. Bring back something like combining squads into platoons again and I'd leave all my conscripts at home.

[Cryptix]

Rumors say they're going to 30 man strong only and they can only recieve orders on a 4+