"Fixing" Commissars & Conscripts

[gunnyogrady]

Said it in the other thread, seems like it applies: Orders on a 4+ punishes Guard players instead of Imperial Soup players. Guilliman and Co don't need the conscripts for their orders, they need them for the (practically fearless) glut of bodies. Even without "Get Back in the Fight!" And FRFSRF, I think Conscripts with Commissars would still get taken in broken Imperial lists. And in that situation, Gee Dubs both didn't solve the problem, and made our units weaker.

 

tl;dr

I hope the debuff rumors about orders on 4+ aren't true

Edited September 28, 2017 by gunnyogrady

[The Catachan Devil]

tl;dr

I hope the debuff rumors about orders on 4+ aren't true

 

I agree. I feel the best thing would be to make the commissar have to execute D6 models from conscripts when failed a morale check.

[Tyr13]

Aaaand they are true. Valhallan article is up, the nerf is squad size 20-30 and orders on 4+. If you fail, you may not try to issue any orders to that unit this turn.

[Vel'Cona]

Aaaand they are true. Valhallan article is up, the nerf is squad size 20-30 and orders on 4+. If you fail, you may not try to issue any orders to that unit this turn.

 

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/f7/f7b508e5597d73608e7e35e6e1f258a8aaf7a9d60d3770b0a683c0f8da6d479d.jpg

[Thorakitai]

Aaaand they are true. Valhallan article is up, the nerf is squad size 20-30 and orders on 4+. If you fail, you may not try to issue any orders to that unit this turn.

None of which solves the cheap fearless bodies easily available to other imperial armies issue...

[Guardsman Bob]

 

Aaaand they are true. Valhallan article is up, the nerf is squad size 20-30 and orders on 4+. If you fail, you may not try to issue any orders to that unit this turn.

None of which solves the cheap fearless bodies easily available to other imperial armies issue...

None of which solves the potential core game mechanic problem of squad sizes for other armies. I’m already seeing (and hearing about) some indication of scarab spam being crazy effective. Might need to try out my Necrons and see if it works for me.

 

At least GW didn’t go nuclear.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I think capping them at 30 bodies helps.

[NatBrannigan]

It is odd isn't it. I mean you can't take 50 any more sure but it's hurting Guard players far more than other imperial armies. I still think 1 Conscript unit (capped at 30, that's good) per 2 Infantry Squads would have sorted this, perhaps along with these changes.

[Alkoz]

Very easy, instead of playing a unit of 50, will be two of 30, the first screen Valhalla regiment to return to the table when they are annihilated, and the second Catachan with F4 to fight melee, sounds good

[gunnyogrady]

Well, that de-buff is a poorly handled response to the problem. Nothing to do about it now but shift our lists and adapt, but it is unfortunate.

 

Hopefully this "Combined Squad Stratagem" can give us back Infantry Blobs to order around instead.

[Altasmurf]

It is odd isn't it. I mean you can't take 50 any more sure but it's hurting Guard players far more than other imperial armies. I still think 1 Conscript unit (capped at 30, that's good) per 2 Infantry Squads would have sorted this, perhaps along with these changes.

It's not that odd. GW wants a army build set that allows you to play what you want. If a player wants a fully conscript force to represent some kind of poorly trained army GW wants them to be able to. Its truly not that much of a nerf and imho it represents conscripts quite well. An irregular force that isn't dependable in battle.

[Are Verlo]

Imo it solves some of the problems related to conscripts. If commissars remain the same, conscripts still work well as meatshields/fallguys but lose some of their flexibiity and synergy with orders.

I am looking forwards to testing it out

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Well, That's that then. I mean, Orders having a 50% chance of being effective on conscripts would have been enough, but I can see capping Conscripts, considering most comparable units are capped at 30 as well (Gaunts, Cultists, Boyz, etc...).

[Withershadow]

Seems fine to me, I'll be glad to stop seeing giant 50-man fearless blobs (yes there is a significant difference between one 50-man squad and 2 25-man squads, especially with the new order interaction).

[librisrouge]

Hmm...I like the balance. Fixes a lot of people's complaints that I've heard, particularly the +4 for orders. I'll probably still be using them plenty.

[Guardsman Bob]

I would rather drink a gallon of turpentine than use any of my 60+ lasgun Mordians as conscripts.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Aaaand they are true. Valhallan article is up, the nerf is squad size 20-30 and orders on 4+. If you fail, you may not try to issue any orders to that unit this turn.

None of which solves the cheap fearless bodies easily available to other imperial armies issue...

 

 

Which is basically unsolvable without breaking the fluff.

 

If you have ally rules, the Imperium has to be able to ally with itself.

 

If you want cheap chaff screens, AM Conscripts are the fluffiest unit for that job.

 

If Conscripts were nerfed and Skitari or Battle Sisters or Death Cult Assassins or whatever started being used as screens that would be even worse.

[NatBrannigan]

I do prefer to have options and rely on the poeple i'm playing against not to abuse them. It just seems like such an odd thing to be moaning about! I'm still positive if people took more balanced armies, not loaded with highpowered, low shot count weapons conscripts wouldn't be as much of an issue.

 

If your 5 Riptides can't kill conscripts, well, the best soloution would be to take other units right? Not make Conscripts worse...

 

Anyway. Overall I like the change, works just fine but dosen't really solve the "problem". Keeping Orders and reducing the effect of Commisars would have been better maybe? Just trying to find fault though, happy with the change :)

[Kuro_Ryu]

If you can't easily kill or ignore 30 t3 5+ save models then the problem is with you, not the conscripts. Edited September 29, 2017 by Kuro_Ryu

[CoffeeGrunt]

Riptides are pretty weak and rubbish at killing Conscripts given they cost almost twice as much as a basic Russ.

[NatBrannigan]

Well that's my point! If I take nothing but Leman Russ Battle Tanks and then moaned that I can't hold objectives, who is at fault? The rules regarding objectives or my Army selection?

 

I'd say most people moaning that they can't kill Conscripts easily have poorly constructed lists. Move with the times, take some Heavy Bolters / Whirlwinds etc. If I take all Conscripts and then moan that Dreadnaughts are too tough people would tell me to take some Heavy weapons rather than Nerfing Dreadnaughts... Just a bit frustrating that that kind of player is changing the game rather than their army selection.

 

Or I don't know what i'm talking about, which is very likely granted!

[olcottr]

I have a friend who plays Eldar and he always used Striking Scorpions and War Walkers with Scatter Lasers to deal with my infantry blobs. It's just a matter of have different tools in your toolbox for different jobs.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The problem is that all the ways of dealing with Hordes have been removed, to be fair. I can quite simply take more Conscripts than you have shots over an entire game, and you'll struggle to kill half that number.

[Beams]

The problem is that all the ways of dealing with Hordes have been removed, to be fair. I can quite simply take more Conscripts than you have shots over an entire game, and you'll struggle to kill half that number.

I disagree completely.

 

If you bring Flamers, stormbolters, heavy Bolters, and in decent numbers, you should be able to wittle away any amount of bodies. Especially Conscripts or orks, who have very low saves.

 

The problem is people are still relying on an abundance of elite units, who are really good at fighting characters and other elite units, instead of adding in a high volume of fire but weaker individual attacks/shots, which are great for anti infantry.

 

Arcos, Death cults, Khorne Berserkers, Fenrisian Wolves, Ork Boys, Sisters of battle Stormbolter dominions, grey knight strike squads (falchions and stormbolter), etc all great at killing hordes.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Beams

[Brother Captain Ed]

Hurricane Bolters and Aggressors, man.

 

I have had no problem deleting 30+ orc/nid/conscript models a turn.

 

The tools are there for nearly every army. It's a matter of changing the way we think about lists.