Any feedback on the Repulsor?

[Stoic Raptor]

And Emperor help the troops that don't manage to kill it in close combat, because then I'm going to fall back and shoot them to death. :D

[tdemayo]

I've not yet seen the Repulser on the table, but it seems to me that it's the sort of unit that needs to be run in pairs or with other vehicles. If you take only one tank, then no matter how tough it is, your opponent will target it with all his anti-tank weapons till it's dead. Really, all those weapons nothing else better to do. It's only when you present opponents with multiple vehicles (or other high T, multi-wound models) that they need to make descisions about where to target their high S, multi D weapons. And it's only by forcing them to make choices that you can induce them to make mistakes. Edited September 27, 2017 by tdemayo

[Stoic Raptor]

I'd say ignoring the rest of my force to concentrate on one threat can be a pretty serious mistake.  It assumes that my tank is the only threat - were that the case, I'd bring nothing else.

[Bremon]

It’s not like your entire army needs to be ignored for long; when one turn of shooting can take care of 20% of the points in a 1500 pts list and force the marines inside to walk, and if they’re aggressors could be killed as well by some plasma the same turn...there goes 500ish points. In potentially one turn. I wouldn’t take expensive stuff like a Repulsor without target saturation in a game where it isn’t a significant percentage of points, but that’s just how I build a list.

[Frater Cornelius]

To be fair, used it at 1250. There was nothing that came even close to killing it. It is a beast, especially when you buff it with Psychic shenanigans.

[Bremon]

Depends on your meta I suppose. In my meta at 1k points I could likely get away with it for a few turns. Enough for it to have an effect on the game. A shooty list (including marines) would blow it up first turn more often than not and second turn is basically a guarantee for it being done in.

[Stoic Raptor]

I never understand why people dismiss the threat that a force can provide by saying "they could be killed in one turn of shooting" - sure, and while you're shooting them, you're not shooting something else - which can shoot back.  My army is just as capable of dealing damage as yours.  It seems like every tactical consideration is made in a vacuum - and it's a wonder when players succeed in spite of that outlook. 

There is a reason that combined arms is a successful military approach.

[Bremon]

Because the idea of using a Repulsor as a distraction carnifex is flawed. A distraction carnifex can be cheaper than 90 points. It soaks up more firepower than its worth and isn’t that deadly anyway, so the expensive deadly stuff is safe. The Repulsor fits under “expensive deadly stuff” that also shoots back if you target something else, so being pleased that other things aren’t being shot seems ridiculous when 15-30% of your army doesn’t last one turn (and the anti infantry weaponry in an army can still shoot something else, like the stuff that was riding in the Repulsor) the real wonder is that players can succeed after that type of casualty in turn one. My approach to combined arms means many units all within the same rough points cost so that there aren’t any obvious soft valuable targets. A Repulsor screams “I’ll massacre your infantry but I’m actually soft as hell, please don’t shoot me!”. So enjoy the smoking crater where your Repulsor was, cross your fingers the stuff inside doesn’t die, have fun walking across the table, and revel in the knowledge your tax marines, Razorbacks, etc. are all safe for another turn and can shoot back. Edited September 28, 2017 by Bremon

[Ishagu]

I don't think it's a distraction Carnifex. It's simply a transport with great firepower and should be played as such. Use cover, be defensive if need be. It can fly over obstacles after all.

 

Also... Soft as hell? It's the toughest dedicated transport in the game and not far behind a Landraider.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Ishagu

[Bremon]

Dedicated transports aren’t a real durable category. The standard DT is a rhino which may as well be a tissue box. I stand by the opinion that a large box with a target on it that gets deleted in the first third of the game isn’t a great use of points. The points on a Repulsor are better spent on a Storm Raven which has more utility and a nicer model. Just my opinions.

[Ishagu]

Stormraven can't carry Primaris or the excellent Hellblaster units.

[Bremon]

Which is the Achilles’ heel of Primaris. I don’t feel many Primaris are worth giving a ride to. Certainly not a 300+ point taxi. If they could get a Razorback with an extra 8” of head room my opinion would be different.

[Ishagu]

If you think a Repulsor will be destroyed turn 1, you're clearly not playing with enough terrain.

 

Significant LoS blocking is required in 40k to prevent shooting gallery scenarios otherwise it simply becomes a game of turn 1 winners.

 

If you can't hide two Tanks on turn 1, you're playing 40k wrong.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Ishagu

[Frater Cornelius]

The Repulsor is worth it just for the dakka, not even counting the advantages of a transport.

[Lemondish]

Because the idea of using a Repulsor as a distraction carnifex is flawed. A distraction carnifex can be cheaper than 90 points. It soaks up more firepower than its worth and isn’t that deadly anyway, so the expensive deadly stuff is safe. The Repulsor fits under “expensive deadly stuff” that also shoots back if you target something else, so being pleased that other things aren’t being shot seems ridiculous when 15-30% of your army doesn’t last one turn (and the anti infantry weaponry in an army can still shoot something else, like the stuff that was riding in the Repulsor) the real wonder is that players can succeed after that type of casualty in turn one. My approach to combined arms means many units all within the same rough points cost so that there aren’t any obvious soft valuable targets. A Repulsor screams “I’ll massacre your infantry but I’m actually soft as hell, please don’t shoot me!”. So enjoy the smoking crater where your Repulsor was, cross your fingers the stuff inside doesn’t die, have fun walking across the table, and revel in the knowledge your tax marines, Razorbacks, etc. are all safe for another turn and can shoot back.

 

If your distraction carnifex isn't very deadly, then its not much of a distraction. I'll ignore it and kill the expensive deadly things. 

 

Like the Repulsor, but because its relatively tough, and I most likely have to kill it with shooting, my options to deal with it are limited. I have to focus a lot more shooting towards it because I can't tie it down in combat and I might not even make the charge to put some heavy damage on it. That's all if I can even see it to begin with. Smart players would deploy it behind LOS blocking terrain and fly it right over the following turn. Which means my positioning needs to take into account its mobility so I can handle it when it shows its face, which further limits my options for that first turn.

 

If that isn't a distraction, I don't know what is. It's the unique combination of its defensive stats and rules alongside its potential damage, if it gets into the right position, that makes it a distraction. 

 

If you think a Repulsor will be destroyed turn 1, you're clearly not playing with enough terrain.

 

Significant LoS blocking is required in 40k to prevent shooting gallery scenarios otherwise it simply becomes a game of turn 1 winners.

 

If you can't hide two Tanks on turn 1, you're playing 40k wrong.

 

This. So many people seem to be playing with a couple ruins and a crater or two, which is nowhere near enough terrain to really make things interesting. 

[Stoic Raptor]

Want to know why Apache helicopters are so deadly?  Pop-Up attacks (well, that and Hellfire missiles).  They're not about to hover in the open and take fire - they hug the terrain, pop up when they have a good shot, and get back down.

 

Ishagu and Lemondish see it the way I do - when people consider things in a vacuum, they're not thinking like soldiers or generals.  The battle goes to the guy who plays his units best.  Even outnumbered, a few guys in the right place at the right time can turn a battle.  If you're all shooting at my tank, the rest of my boys will have their way with you. :)

[Ishagu]

In fairness I can kill Mortarion, a Baneblade or an Imperial Knight in one round of shooting as well.

 

Are they a waste of points?

 

We all know it's never that simple.

[Bremon]

If you think a Repulsor will be destroyed turn 1, you're clearly not playing with enough terrain.

 

Significant LoS blocking is required in 40k to prevent shooting gallery scenarios otherwise it simply becomes a game of turn 1 winners.

 

If you can't hide two Tanks on turn 1, you're playing 40k wrong.

Or maybe it’s a matter of deciding what needs to be hidden. We use a significant amount of terrain, including enough LOS blocking terrain that deployment has to be strategic. That said, 40k isn’t a game that lends itself well being able to hide huge tanks etc., maybe some of you play city fight style battles more extensively. Or maybe you’re right, and I’m “doing it wrong”.

 

If your distraction carnifex isn't very deadly, then its not much of a distraction. I'll ignore it and kill the expensive deadly things.

 

Like the Repulsor, but because its relatively tough, and I most likely have to kill it with shooting, my options to deal with it are limited. I have to focus a lot more shooting towards it because I can't tie it down in combat and I might not even make the charge to put some heavy damage on it. That's all if I can even see it to begin with. Smart players would deploy it behind LOS blocking terrain and fly it right over the following turn. Which means my positioning needs to take into account its mobility so I can handle it when it shows its face, which further limits my options for that first turn.

 

If that isn't a distraction, I don't know what is. It's the unique combination of its defensive stats and rules alongside its potential damage, if it gets into the right position, that makes it a distraction.

The idea of the distraction carnifex is something garnering more attention than it’s realistically worth. An adept tactician, experienced wargamer, or book reader with a keen sense of wysiwyg and impressive depth of knowledge across all the factions will see such a unit for what it is. The Repulsor is worth paying attention to and blowing up, because it’s a significant points investment into a gunboat.

 

Want to know why Apache helicopters are so deadly? Pop-Up attacks (well, that and Hellfire missiles). They're not about to hover in the open and take fire - they hug the terrain, pop up when they have a good shot, and get back down.

 

Ishagu and Lemondish see it the way I do - when people consider things in a vacuum, they're not thinking like soldiers or generals. The battle goes to the guy who plays his units best. Even outnumbered, a few guys in the right place at the right time can turn a battle. If you're all shooting at my tank, the rest of my boys will have their way with you. :)

The Repulsor doesn’t behave like an Apache unless I’ve missed a spot where it refers to 3rd edition eldar crystal targeting matrix shenanigans. Apache pops up, destroys, disappears; it doesn’t follow the turn sequence of a game of 40k. Repulsor pops up over a mountain, kills some infantry, and then gets blown up. The Apache gets more than one round of shots off before a fancy funeral needs to be planned.

 

As for the boys that are having their way while the Repulsor gets shot at, I’m not sure why anti-tank weaponry would be shooting at your infantry when there are other units more capable of wiping them, or why you’d expect all the anti infantry weaponry to be shooting the Repulsor, or expecting your enemy not to have any. Plus, you have 350ish less points of boys invited to the “have your way” party to begin with, but maybe I’m not thinking like a general.

 

In fairness I can kill Mortarion, a Baneblade or an Imperial Knight in one round of shooting as well.

 

Are they a waste of points?

 

We all know it's never that simple.

For less than 50% more points than a Repulsor, Mortarion is in the vicinity of 3x as durable against anti-tank weaponry, acts as a force multiplier to the army around him, hands out mortal wounds, and is effective in every phase of the game. Each other unit you mention is more efficient per point than the Repulsor, to the point that it isn’t worth comparing the Repulsor to a LoW in the first place. The idea of killing them in a phase is like comparing blowing up a Dread or Rhino to blowing up a Land Raider. Edited September 29, 2017 by Bremon

[MeltaRange]

I proxied 2 in a game last night.  1 with 2x5 Hellblasters and 1 with 5 Hellblasters, Primaris Captain, Primaris Lt. and Primaris Ancient.  

 

I think the ability to Fly combined with the their extreme dakka makes them very well suited to clearing bubblewrap.  With Hellblasters inside, that's a big time threat to aura characters if unit positioning is not good enough.  You can fly to an advantageous position, wither away the wrap and then potentially have the Hellblasters up for a overcharged volley into an exposed character.

[Bremon]

Two fits more into the overall philosophy I have with regards to list building, which is redundancy. I’m sure some people would call it spam, but I like doubling up on specific things to make sure they work the way I want them to work. Having Hellblasters pop out of it seems viable, especially when you have two tanks. One of them ought to get where you want it to be.

 

That said, in case any one feels I’m being a bit too argumentative, I will concede that I seem to be the minority opinion in here lol, and despite being on the opposite side of the coin I do appreciate you guys sharing insight as to why/how it works well for you guys.

[Stoic Raptor]

Bremon, I guess you keep thinking that the Repulsor isn't going to be shooting at the stuff that can kill it.  I mean, if you're shooting conscripts with it, instead of the Devastators, or if you're using a non-laser version against tanks... then yeah, you're doing it wrong.

 

Anything that can kill a Repulsor in one round, without itself being killed, is going to annihilate an equivalent amount of infantry.

[Bremon]

An equivalent amount of infantry? I sincerely doubt it. Maybe the myriad weapon options have you thinking the Repulsor has a plethora of 48” range weapons? Unless you have the lascannons there could likely be an entire turn where it can’t shoot the things that are shooting at it. The statement in italics is disingenuous as heavy infantry has more access to invulnerables, cover, and actual LOS blocking (especially in the metas mentioned where I can only assume tank blocking walls split the board into fragments for the Repulsor to jump over). A lascannon wounds both the Repulsor and a plague marine on a 3+, they get the same save, PM have DR, and each shot can only kill one marine. The Repulsor is gone before you’ve deleted a 100 point squad of PM. Blightlords or assault termies maybe you’ll wipe a squad of them. I doubt it, but maybe you’ll delete 200 points of termies before the 300+ point tank is gone. It certainly isn’t hard to believe that after one turn your Repulsor is down to BS5+ and 3” movement.

 

Either way, enjoy using the Repulsor, I’ll continue to not see the point in it. As I’ve said, I see my opinion is an unpopular one, but hopefully the contrast is of some help to people reading this thread.

[Blindhamster]

I bought a second one today, because ultimately I don't think running just one is a good idea in an all primaris army (might be fine in an army that makes use of a couple of tri las preds or a land raider or other stuff that will draw fire)

[Frater Cornelius]

In all competitive games at 2000 that saw my Repulsor killed before its time was when I overextended. Some of you really underestimate that flying shoe box.

[Spiky Norman]

I ordered one too, so it better live up to your praise :-)

 

Thinking about getting two in the end, but I'm not sure if I should go for a Knight to complement the primaris army instead of a second Repulsor.

I like how the repulsor can cut off 3 drops of the army, so I have a better chance at getting the +1 to start, but then the Knight is more expensive but probably also hits harder and are more survivable.