End of an era for BL?

[bluntblade]

 

In my opinion the issue with the Unification Wars would be one of what story is there to tell? Post apocalyptic earth, thunder warriors and the Emperor slowly grinding down the other warlords, ending with the creation of the legions and the betrayal of the thunder warriors. Might make a decent one off novel or at most a trilogy but with air magic and sorcery taking over the role of chaos is it more compelling than a well written scouring series or a 41k series which isn't as human centric and actually covers the plethora of factions people play.

The other issue would be to differentiate the new unification setting from any number of hard sci fi series with post apocalypse and psychic overtones

Here's an idea how to differentiate it: don't do it from the Porto-Imperial side. Have the Emperors conquets be a slow moving "other", this unknown thing that can't be stopped, this mysterious thing that's almost alien (alien as unknown, not xenos) and have the books be from the perspectives from the people of those states that are on the chopping block, Ursh, Gyptus, Mars, etc etc. Think of the Romans when it came to the Cimbri, or the Hungarians when the Mongols came to their door. There is something fascinating about having a political and social drama where the "other" is slowly fleshed out over a series of books. We all know what that "other" is in this case even though those characters do not, and we know what the conclusion will be, but it would be interesting IMO, the same way it was interesting when characters in the Heresy discover that the Imerial truth was a lie, that there are demons and things that go bump in the night, those things in this case being the unstoppable hordes of the Emperor.

That...post ended up being a lot longer than I thought it would be.... I love it when that happens.

PS, a monetary incentive for BL is if FW was to make Unfication wars models, it would imagine it would generate a lot more sales for other the other techno-barbarian States other than just the Proto-Imperial state if there is a emotional attachment of some kind there.

Now that could actually work nicely as a series, and avert the risks with the II and XI.

[m0nolith]

I'd honestly be more interested in some Dark Age of Technology era novels HOWEVER considering how extremely advanced technology was at that time (comparable to pre Slaanesh Eldar and Necrons back in the day) and that everything that makes the 30k/40k universe what it is came only after it...it wouldn't exactly be a 40k novel anymore.

It'd be like writing a novel set in germany....but 4k years in the past.

First, there has to be some mistique somewhere so you can pull concepts and mcguffins from, ie some old piece of thechnology from the Dark Age of Technology that needs to be captured or a mesterious world that somehow survived the Age of Strife and the mystery on how they did or whatnot.

 

Second, there should be zero connection to today's world. ZERO.

When Rick Priestly was writing the background for 40k, he first set it in the year 4000, then he decided to add another 0 so it had nothing to do with today's world, and he was right to do this. You open up a whole can of worms when you start bringing in modern politics into your lore of the far future *cough* The Last Church and the Franc *cough*.

 

Yes, they have the Yindonesic Bloc, Jermani, Merica, etc act, but they have zero to do with today's Indonesia, Germany, and US when it comes to culture, politics, genealogy, language, etc etc other than geography.

 

But to play devils advocate to my own argument, a lot of cultural things were pulled from real life to inspire things in this IP, ie Space Mongols, Space Egyptians, Space Romans, Space Vikings, Space Greeks, Space Polynesians, Space 19th century Pith helmet wearing British Redcoats, and all of that stuff has been handeled well without relying too much on those original cultures to define them, and the results were great, with some exceptions ;)

Edited September 21, 2017 by m0nolith

[Panzer]

As I said, it would be pretty detached from the rest of the 40k universe since it was basically a completely different universe/setting. Tho if they ever get around doing some Dark Age of Technology novels I'd like the Emperor to appear one or two times as random no-name character without any role in the actual story. So minor that many people reading the novel would actually not even notice it's been him. Basically an Easter Egg. :D

[Knockagh]

I hope we get a historical series as everyone is suggesting. I only fear we might get primaris books being pushed. I'm no fan of the recent changes to 40k, mostly because I just don't like things I love changing.

 

So I hope scouring, apostasy, unification wars or whatever.

 

I would love a series on the fall of the eldar, the eldar/necron/old ones wars. I want a series on a rogue trader family I can get attached to. A new arbites series. I want I want I want. Just limit the marines!

[bluntblade]

I'd like some stuff like Battle of the Fang or Flesh of Cretacia, but specifically set in the early Black Crusades. Or wider-ranging stuff that takes in the Imperium trying to respond to the psychological shock of the heretics' return, the Templars wrestling with Sigismund's death and so on.

[Mellow]

I’d like a series (only a few) of short stories that showed the perpetuals from the dawn of time. How they met and importantly how they felt when they realised it’s been “ages” and they’ve bumped into someone else not realising that they too were perpetual.

 

Unless of course the perpetual thing isn’t evolution taking the Micky and they were all intentionally created.

 

Of course if they were I would expect that plot reveal to be done right at the end of said short story.

[Ishagu]

I think it's obvious that 40k has changed from a setting to a story. Each Codex advances the plot, new novels move events forward and big changes are happening to the status Quo on a regular basis.

 

-Imperium Technology advancing once more

-The return of the Primarchs

-Chaos ascending and attacking even Holy Terra itself

-New alliances and new rivalries

 

It's clear that Games Workshop will focus on the current setting rather than pursuing things like the Age of Technology which can't really be linked to the current factions, characters or model lines.

The Marine focus over the coming years will be the expansion of the Primaris line so I certainly don't see any novels about the Unification Wars or anything to do with the Emperor's early years for some time at least.

 

It's not hard to imagine that the Lion or another Primarch will return soon. I think we'd all love a story about them in the 41St millennium.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Ishagu

[Chaeron]

As sad as I'll be to see the Horus Heresy series come to a conclusion, there have been lots of great suggestions within this thread of other time periods that could be covered in future, which leaves me thinking that there could be some similarly epic sagas to come. I also hope that whilst the main narrative may end, that there will still continue to be other books set within the framing of the Heresy in some format. Will be keenly reading! 

[Phoebus]

There's nothing inherently wrong with the Horus Heresy series stretching out over 50 or even 60 novels. It's a galaxy-spanning war featuring 18 distinct legions and at least a couple of other factions. I'm not sure how a series focused on just the battlefields and actions mentioned in the Index Astartes articles as happening during or immediately before the Horus Heresy - Olympia, Signus, Prospero, Calth, Isstvan III, the destruction of Nostramo, Isstvan V, Tallarn, the turning of the Death Guard, the Dark Angels' and Space Wolves' return, and Terra - does the conflict justice. That alone would be eleven novels, and you wouldn't necessarily have any backstory or context to the causes for the Heresy.

 

The real issue, in my humble opinion, is twofold:

 

1. The people driving this series waited until close to forty novels had been published before starting up the Primarchs series, which would have been best used to provide the aforementioned context to the series. That's not to say that I didn't love, e.g., The First Heretic, but it - and entries like it, such as Descent of Angels, half of Fallen Angels, and Legion - would have benefited from different timing and a specific imprint.

 

2. The novels used to show what happened in other places during the Heresy were often lackluster. They failed to capture the scale of the conflict and didn't necessarily drive the storyline forward.

 

I don't know if five novels are left (doubtful) or fifteen. The number is less relevant, though, than the direction they'll take, the stories they'll contain, and the quality with which they'll be written. Speaking bluntly, the number of entries would be less of a talking point of we had more Betrayer, Path of Heaven, or Praetorian of Dorn, and less Damnation of Pythos or Pharos.

 

Now, as for what would follow the Heresy? The important thing to come out of "The Beast" series is that Black Library showed that they could set up a coordinated, multi-author, year-long storyline with monthly releases while dealing with the Heresy and the rest of their regular publishing schedule. Without the Heresy occupying authors, time, and resources, a Scouring series could swiftly follow. Such a storyline could be satisfied in a dozen (theoretical number) entries: Iron Cage, Caliban, Codex Astartes, novels for Corax, Khan, Russ, and Vulkan disappearing, Dorn's death, Guilliman's "death", etc. In truth, given sufficient interest and backing, a number of such storylines could pop - from the Apostasy to the Badab War. Coordination with Forge World would ensure models, miniatures, and rulebooks to bring appeal to them. Where Badab is concerned, you could even see the reverse of the Horus Heresy phenomenon, wherein the increasingly solid storylines of the Forge World studio could very well entice authors to want to write tie-in novels for them.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Phoebus

[b1soul]

DAoT would be a completely different setting

 

It would take a masterful authour to tie DAoT and 40K

 

I think DAoT (or Strife-era) short stories might work, perhaps relating to perpetuals...almost like flashbacks

 

...but I doubt BL will ever do that.

[Mellow]

I’d love it if a small series about the Men of Iron conflict was done. Only a few books and certainly not showing Humanity win.

 

Book 1: everything is great, AI is useful and crew are beginning to form interactions and almost friendship like bonds.

 

Book 2: some kind of conflict occurs and Humanity uses the MoI to resolve. Several scenes of MoI talking about effectively not liking being used by humans causes orders to not be followed (or something minor like that)

 

Book 3: external conflict is put on hold. Things escalate between MoI and Humanity. Things get bad very quickly. Like Terminator style bad. But worse.

 

(Or something similar)

[Irbis]

Other than an expanded Badab war of course. I'd like to see the mysterious "War of the False Primarch" come to light as a full fleshed out series there were many space marine chapters involved almost like another mini horus heresy

 

Yup, that would be nice one. I'd be hovewer interested in possibly biggest most mysterious 40K side plot, what is the deal with Ashen Claws/Second Imperium/Pale Wasting as it's something that in good hands can easily rival Horus Heresy, not poket HH like Badab or WotFP

[HeritorA]

I think it's obvious that 40k has changed from a setting to a story. Each Codex advances the plot, new novels move events forward and big changes are happening to the status Quo on a regular basis.

 

-Imperium Technology advancing once more

-The return of the Primarchs

-Chaos ascending and attacking even Holy Terra itself

-New alliances and new rivalries

 

It's clear that Games Workshop will focus on the current setting rather than pursuing things like the Age of Technology which can't really be linked to the current factions, characters or model lines.

The Marine focus over the coming years will be the expansion of the Primaris line so I certainly don't see any novels about the Unification Wars or anything to do with the Emperor's early years for some time at least.

 

It's not hard to imagine that the Lion or another Primarch will return soon. I think we'd all love a story about them in the 41St millennium.

 

1) Which codex advances the plot. How many 8th edition codexes we have now - 3? Where did they progress anything. They did not go anywhere outside GS and Dark Imperim. 10 pages of fluff in the latest Codex repeating events of DI and GS - is moving the story forward?

2) Chaos already attacked Holy Terra - which is a horrible piece of fluff. Worst example of how to ruin the story. Khorne forces opened Warp Portal on Terra and invaded directly into the Palace - only Guilliman and Custodes stopped them. With all the seals and eldricth security protocols Chaos simply opened the portal and invaded. ARE YOU FOR REAL. Then WHY THE FETH ALL THE 9 TRAITOR LEGIONS  didn't ask Khorne (if he is so powerful) to send them directly to Terra. Abaddon and his Great Crusade is a :cuss comparing to that invasion.

 

DAoT would be a completely different setting

 

It would take a masterful authour to tie DAoT and 40K

 

I think DAoT (or Strife-era) short stories might work, perhaps relating to perpetuals...almost like flashbacks

 

...but I doubt BL will ever do that.

 

Same - and hope all the Perpetual and timewarping shenangians would be dropped from the start - because as I see it - so far GW lore team took THE  WORST from the setting to 'improve' the storyline.

Even if BL and GW combined would try - THEY WILL NEVER CREATED THE SAME LEVEL OF DRAMA AND STORYTELLING HORUS HERESY WAS.

[veterannoob]

 

I also think a series on the Unification Wars would kill a lot of the mystique surrounding the period (and indeed the Emperor), so I doubt we'd see that either. 

 

Only bad writers kill mystique

 

Good writers add to it

 

Could you imagine a Unification Wars series handled exclusively by Abnett, Wraight, ADB?

 

How about a series by Kyme, Thorpe, Swallow?

 

I'm not sure what the next Beast Arises-like series is in the works but I doubt it's the Unification Wars, though I agree with you here on all fronts and desperately WANT that series at some point. :)

[Ascanius]

I’d like a series (only a few) of short stories that showed the perpetuals from the dawn of time. How they met and importantly how they felt when they realised it’s been “ages” and they’ve bumped into someone else not realising that they too were perpetual.

 

If you want that, you ought to read The Boat of a Million Years by Poul Anderson.

[HighMarshalAlex]

 

 

Hopefully there will be one or two more about the Fists!

Of course.

The Fists single handedly saved the Imperium.

Don't tell The Ultras ;)

[Rob P]

Bit of a random thought, be it's amazing to think that Horus Rising preceded the start of the marvel cinematic universe by 2 years and we have had 3 separate spidermans since the series started.

 

Can't be many book series that have lasted so long with so many books and, presumably, so many sales.

[bluntblade]

I'd like some stuff wth the Fists getting used to their new neighbours, now the Scars have arrived. It'd make sense for Sigismund and Jubal to meet up again, actually.

[Irbis]

 

But that was the mystique 

 

But don't get me wrong, I also think the Horus Heresy series had to happen, in some shape or form, given its importance to the setting, the long shadows cast by the primarchs and ultimately the money that could be made off of it. And I don't begrudge the series for that; for all it's faults I think it ultimately did a lot of good. I don't think it's as exciting as it once was before the books came out (with my own rose-tinted glasses on I guess), but I can appreciate it for what it is and what is has done. 

 

I guess it comes down to personal taste and what kind of hobbyists we are. I'd rather be given a little bit of fluff and be allowed to go off and fill in the gaps myself, but I respect others who would rather see the company putting more effort into fleshing out their own universe. I'm still intrigued to see what they do next after the Heresy series concludes.

 

You know, it's funny even people who defend 'mystique' immediately add 'but HH was great success'. The 'mystique' argument is really bad, and it's very easy to demonstrate that. What is the most common theme for armies? Why, M41 army. If you see Dante, Sicarius, or Helbrecht on table, it's M41. The second most popular theme is M30 army - but these started to appear only after book series started, before it was niche of a niche. What these two periods have in common? They are the most heavily explored. Then you have armies patterned after minor, but still explored blips (like cursed founding, badab war, or blood ravens thanks to games). How many SM armies are set in say M37, full of ""mystique""? Nearly zero. And if some are, they are so bland, generic, and uninspired they could have been set everywhere. The number of interesting, well made armies anywhere near as flavorful as M41 ones set in unexplored areas can be counted by drunk lumberjack after a few axe accidents...

[Phoebus]

I'm sorry, but that feels like a poor comparison, Irbis.

 

To begin with, while it's understood that there not all ten millennia between the Scouring and the current timeline are identical, the structure of the setting makes it difficult for someone to make an army that is distinct to, say, M35. Mk VII Power Armour, Rhinos, Land Raiders, etc., didn't significantly change between those two periods. By contrast, there is a significant difference in the look of the Legiones Astartes versus that of the Adeptus Astartes. At best, certain Chapters provide a lore-based reason to make some significant cosmetic distinctions: for instance, we don't know when, but at some point the Dark Angels changed the livery of their First Company from black to bone-white.

 

The other thing about the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy is that while there are significant differences between the eras and much "lost technology" is to be found in these settings, they aren't exactly groundbreaking. Scale (Stormbird versus Thunderhawk), numbers (Legions versus Chapters), and sometimes firepower (Volkite versus bolter) are greater, but it doesn't compare to the absolutely mythical way the Dark Age of Technology is treated in this setting. That's one of the generally unmentioned Achilles Heels of the setting: technically, we know most of the mainstream staples of the setting originate from STCs that date back to the Dark Age of Technology... but I'm willing to bet people would be disappointed if a novel series detailing that setting largely featured vehicles such as, e.g., the now-humble Rhino. The same thing could be said of the conflicts before or during the Unification Wars. I mean, we can probably assume that the superhuman warriors who stormed the cognoscynth citadels on the backs of "great silver flying machines" alongside the "golden-eyed warrior" mentioned in The Outcast Dead were likely not game-changingly different to the Thunder Warriors, Custodian Guard, or Legiones Astartes. It's another thing altogether, however, for this to be qualified as such. 

[Mellow]

Dark Age of Technology.

 

An era that could skyrocket or crash and burn depending on the quality of any novels should they get written.

[Qkhitai]

 

 

But that was the mystique 

 

But don't get me wrong, I also think the Horus Heresy series had to happen, in some shape or form, given its importance to the setting, the long shadows cast by the primarchs and ultimately the money that could be made off of it. And I don't begrudge the series for that; for all it's faults I think it ultimately did a lot of good. I don't think it's as exciting as it once was before the books came out (with my own rose-tinted glasses on I guess), but I can appreciate it for what it is and what is has done. 

 

I guess it comes down to personal taste and what kind of hobbyists we are. I'd rather be given a little bit of fluff and be allowed to go off and fill in the gaps myself, but I respect others who would rather see the company putting more effort into fleshing out their own universe. I'm still intrigued to see what they do next after the Heresy series concludes.

 

You know, it's funny even people who defend 'mystique' immediately add 'but HH was great success'. The 'mystique' argument is really bad, and it's very easy to demonstrate that. What is the most common theme for armies? Why, M41 army. If you see Dante, Sicarius, or Helbrecht on table, it's M41. The second most popular theme is M30 army - but these started to appear only after book series started, before it was niche of a niche. What these two periods have in common? They are the most heavily explored. Then you have armies patterned after minor, but still explored blips (like cursed founding, badab war, or blood ravens thanks to games). How many SM armies are set in say M37, full of ""mystique""? Nearly zero. And if some are, they are so bland, generic, and uninspired they could have been set everywhere. The number of interesting, well made armies anywhere near as flavorful as M41 ones set in unexplored areas can be counted by drunk lumberjack after a few axe accidents...

 

 

My point was rather that although the series killed a lot of the mystique surrounding the Heresy, it did a lot of good in other areas. I don't tie success purely to the preservation of mystique, that would be silly. The pros can outweigh the cons. Doesn't mean they always will of course.

 

As to different modelling projects, who does what and when, it's a mixed bag. Naturally M41 armies are the most prevalent, aswell as Heresy armies after all this kicked off. But that's also partly because there are different kinds of hobbyists out there. Some will buy pre-painted armies and just seek to play the game (and couldn't give a monkeys if their army is an M30 or M41 one), others will be in to tournaments, others will want to just make cool conversions or show off their painting skills. And others will want to be more creative, making up their own fluff and background material for their armies. Games Workshop has to, and indeed does, cater to all these different groups. That means there has to be some balance and balance is all I expect. I'm happy for them, Black Library and Forge World to go and explore certain settings and flesh out the Warhammer universe, but I'd also like for them to leave some aspects of the fluff alone. And Games Workshop does leave some things alone, precisely to provide players with some room for creative manoeuvre, as we see with the lost legions. I see the Unification Wars - and everything preceding it - as something analogous; a stone better left unturned. Less sometimes is more, and I think they understand that.

 

Your point about most armies grounded somewhere between M30 and M41 being bland, generic and uninteresting is odd, a little insulting and just demonstrably wrong. Some of the best, most exciting and innovative armies/projects I've seen have been ones that have explored this area. Apologist's recent project of M35-era Blood Angels immediately springs to mind as a prime example.

[Malios]

Either way, I hope Black Library goes forward having learnt from the good and bad points of the main Horus Heresy series once it wraps up.

 

The only criticisms I have of the series comes down to pacing, varying quality and release schedule:

 

* Some books were released too early or too late in the series which detracted from their quality: the context was lost on them. (On the flip side, some books were released EXACTLY at the right time which enhanced their quality)

 

* Some books or storylines just weren't necessary. They felt like pure fan service to the 40k setting or just didn't play a significant role in the greater horus heresy storyline. Some authors were worse for this then others.

 

* The pacing of the books was like a long running Japanese anime series, switching from periods of intense leaps in the story to excessive amounts of filler with no real balance between the two. The main series nearly ground to a complete halt over 2014 - 2015 with nothing but filler, only resuming to push the story forward again in 2016. And,

 

* There were just too many fingers in the pie. Too many authors with varying degrees of styles, interests and experience. Some of the authors simply "got it" and thrived. Others were experienced enough with a well grounded style to push out a good book no matter its content. Others... were just not suited to write the books they wrote in the series. (This last point is not a criticism of the author's skills, but their style or prose just didn't suit the content they wrote. Its as they say: a guitar player can only play a Bass guitar so well, despite their similarities.)

 

 

My personal belief is that Black Library will benefit from smaller, less ambitious series going forward into the future. Despite its criticisms with writing and plot holes, the Beast Arises series combined a good release schedule with enough content to give the series some depth, but only enough to still keep it on track. Black Library did really well with this series and could refine it further, maybe with a few less authors.

 

What I fear however, is that Black Library will come under the GW thumb going forward with their 40k releases as they did with Age of Sigmar. Their books will be dictated by the GW release schedule which takes away from the creative freedom of the writers. Gone are the days where a Black Library writer could create a setting within a setting like Abnett did with the Sabbat Worlds... but there's only so many Realmgate Wars or Space Marines Battles one can read before they crave something more.

[A D-B]

Either way, I hope Black Library goes forward having learnt from the good and bad points of the main Horus Heresy series once it wraps up.

 

The only criticisms I have of the series comes down to pacing, varying quality and release schedule:

 

* Some books were released too early or too late in the series which detracted from their quality: the context was lost on them. (On the flip side, some books were released EXACTLY at the right time which enhanced their quality)

 

* Some books or storylines just weren't necessary. They felt like pure fan service to the 40k setting or just didn't play a significant role in the greater horus heresy storyline. Some authors were worse for this then others.

 

* The pacing of the books was like a long running Japanese anime series, switching from periods of intense leaps in the story to excessive amounts of filler with no real balance between the two. The main series nearly ground to a complete halt over 2014 - 2015 with nothing but filler, only resuming to push the story forward again in 2016. And,

 

* There were just too many fingers in the pie. Too many authors with varying degrees of styles, interests and experience. Some of the authors simply "got it" and thrived. Others were experienced enough with a well grounded style to push out a good book no matter its content. Others... were just not suited to write the books they wrote in the series. (This last point is not a criticism of the author's skills, but their style or prose just didn't suit the content they wrote. Its as they say: a guitar player can only play a Bass guitar so well, despite their similarities.)

 

 

As a reader, I'm more looking forward to the idea of there not being a major series again. The Horus Heresy gets all the attention, and there are people that only read the HH series, which is just insane to me, in context. Most of the setting's densest lore / most imaginative ideas / best characters aren't in the Heresy series, and arguably no author's best writing or best book is in the Heresy, either. (Definitely subject to opinion, there, but there are 3-4 books of Dan's that I'd read before I touched his HH work, and I genuinely love his HH work. I'd put my Black Legion or Night Lords stuff up against my Heresy stuff any day of the week; same with John and Chris's Inquisition stuff against their Heresy stuff. And so on.)

 

40K is at its best when it has decent writers telling stories via the lenses through which they perceive the setting. It also stops the galaxy's shrinkage, where the same characters and the same factions show up everywhere all the time. When you have multiple authors telling diverse stories in entirely different ways, you're getting much closer to what 40K is.

 

There's too much reader interest (see this thread, and a million others elsewhere, calling for more series, for example) and too much money in doing "major" series, but from a personal fan standpoint, I think BL and the setting itself is at its best when the focus is away from the card-carrying famous stuff. 

 

 

 

What I fear however, is that Black Library will come under the GW thumb going forward with their 40k releases as they did with Age of Sigmar. Their books will be dictated by the GW release schedule which takes away from the creative freedom of the writers. Gone are the days where a Black Library writer could create a setting within a setting like Abnett did with the Sabbat Worlds... 

 

 

On the contrary, and definitely in the plus column, the opposite is true. Those days are here again. BL is back to being independent the last year or so, and no longer tying releases into the minis schedule, etc. If you'd had that worry about 3 years ago, you'd be dead right, but we're on the other side of that experiment right now. 

[b1soul]

Those days are here again. BL is back to being independent the last year or so, and no longer tying releases into the minis schedule, etc. If you'd had that worry about 3 years ago, you'd be dead right, but we're on the other side of that experiment right now.

 

...and that is cause for celebration I might add!