End of an era for BL?

[HeritorA]

I'd like some stuff wth the Fists getting used to their new neighbours, now the Scars have arrived. It'd make sense for Sigismund and Jubal to meet up again, actually.

Good choice. Especially now - Jubal is an epitome of free will, harsh wind with lightning summer. Sigi - is all honor, duty and doctrine.

Malios * Some books were released too early or too late in the series which detracted from their quality: the context was lost on them. (On the flip side, some books were released EXACTLY at the right time which enhanced their quality)* Some books or storylines just weren't necessary. They felt like pure fan service to the 40k setting or just didn't play a significant role in the greater horus heresy storyline. Some authors were worse for this then others.

One of the biggest truths I heard this year.

 

A D-B

You are as usual (with some exception) totally right. If you would give me and A D-B Black Legion novel #3 and A D-B Horus Heresy novel for the Siege of Terra - guess what I will chose. And not because HH - is major. Because HH is more interesting for me (especially the war to Terra and void war) - not some Silent/Hidden wars. Not some Garro or eternal struggle of poor deluded Word Bearer. Horus Heresy - I like chronicles. I would have liked instead of Khayon view on VS - to see the names and classes of ships burning in the void.

 

'Those days are here again. BL is back to being independent the last year or so, and no longer tying releases into the minis schedule, etc. If you'd had that worry about 3 years ago, you'd be dead right, but we're on the other side of that experiment right now.'

 

that's good but still the line, shackles and strings attached are where A D-B.

Look for the 'Dark Imperium' and 'Shroud of Night' - how free and selective authors were while writing in that lovely 'new' setting - which we should adorne and pray for from the starters.

[Ascanius]

There's too much reader interest (see this thread, and a million others elsewhere, calling for more series, for example) and too much money in doing "major" series, but from a personal fan standpoint, I think BL and the setting itself is at its best when the focus is away from the card-carrying famous stuff. 

 

Personally, I'd like to see Black Library split the difference.

 

I've recently read through the Eisenhorn omnibus, the Ravenor omnibus, and Pariah, and I really appreciated how each novel stood alone as a story but also linked in to ongoing storylines that weave in and out. The Glaws, the Cognitae, Enuncia, it's all really well-handled. Having the scope of several hundred years' worth of time in M41 over which to unfold the story helps, too.

 

It would be really interesting if several writers could agree to choose an element of the setting, or create a new one together, and work out a way to weave it through some otherwise standalone novels so that you resolve the big picture if you stand back, but up close each part is still an interesting vista of its own.

 

It wouldn't have to be some conspiracy akin to the Glaw/Cognitae/Enuncia thing from Dan Abnett's Inquisitor series, either. For instance, what if other writers did a story featuring one of the Mentors on assignment to a chapter not deeply enmeshed in mainstream Imperial culture? It would be interesting to see French or Wraight or McNeill or Kyme or whomever do an examination of idiosyncratic chapter culture versus the Codex Astartes - round one: fight!

 

That's just an example, you know? There are lots of ways to link stories together without putting them all in the context of a galaxy-redefining narrative.

Edited September 25, 2017 by mhacdebhandia

[HeritorA]

 

There's too much reader interest (see this thread, and a million others elsewhere, calling for more series, for example) and too much money in doing "major" series, but from a personal fan standpoint, I think BL and the setting itself is at its best when the focus is away from the card-carrying famous stuff. 

 

Personally, I'd like to see Black Library split the difference.

 

I've recently read through the Eisenhorn omnibus, the Ravenor omnibus, and Pariah, and I really appreciated how each novel stood alone as a story but also linked in to ongoing storylines that weave in and out. The Glaws, the Cognitae, Enuncia, it's all really well-handled. Having the scope of several hundred years' worth of time in M41 over which to unfold the story helps, too.

 

It would be really interesting if several writers could agree to choose an element of the setting, or create a new one together, and work out a way to weave it through some otherwise standalone novels so that you resolve the big picture if you stand back, but up close each part is still an interesting vista of its own.

 

It wouldn't have to be some conspiracy akin to the Glaw/Cognitae/Enuncia thing from Dan Abnett's Inquisitor series, either. For instance, what if other writers did a story featuring one of the Mentors on assignment to a chapter not deeply enmeshed in mainstream Imperial culture? It would be interesting to see French or Wraight or McNeill or Kyme or whomever do an examination of idiosyncratic chapter culture versus the Codex Astartes - round one: fight!

 

That's just an example, you know? There are lots of ways to link stories together without putting them all in the context of a galaxy-redefining narrative.

 

True. But freedom is a fathom - they still work in the shadow of GW and W41K. So the new setting need novels to flesh it out. They have authors - so they will simply pay for the novels set in w41k.

And they will pay more for them than for the stories set in the 'old' w40k without Primaris some authors want to tell by themselves.

[A D-B]

It would be really interesting if several writers could agree to choose an element of the setting, or create a new one together, and work out a way to weave it through some otherwise standalone novels so that you resolve the big picture if you stand back, but up close each part is still an interesting vista of its own.

 

That's... actually a really good idea. Hmm.

 

 

  For instance, what if other writers did a story featuring one of the Mentors on assignment to a chapter not deeply enmeshed in mainstream Imperial culture?

 

 

Right now, BL would probably say "Aaron's literally doing that right now in Spear of the Emperor, do something else." But I see your point. I am intrigued and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Edited September 26, 2017 by A D-B

[mc warhammer]

 

I'd like some stuff wth the Fists getting used to their new neighbours, now the Scars have arrived. It'd make sense for Sigismund and Jubal to meet up again, actually.

Good choice. Especially now - Jubal is an epitome of free will, harsh wind with lightning summer. Sigi - is all honor, duty and doctrine.

Malios * Some books were released too early or too late in the series which detracted from their quality: the context was lost on them. (On the flip side, some books were released EXACTLY at the right time which enhanced their quality)* Some books or storylines just weren't necessary. They felt like pure fan service to the 40k setting or just didn't play a significant role in the greater horus heresy storyline. Some authors were worse for this then others.

One of the biggest truths I heard this year.

 

 

Either way, I hope Black Library goes forward having learnt from the good and bad points of the main Horus Heresy series once it wraps up.

 

The only criticisms I have of the series comes down to pacing, varying quality and release schedule:

 

* Some books were released too early or too late in the series which detracted from their quality: the context was lost on them. (On the flip side, some books were released EXACTLY at the right time which enhanced their quality)

 

* Some books or storylines just weren't necessary. They felt like pure fan service to the 40k setting or just didn't play a significant role in the greater horus heresy storyline. Some authors were worse for this then others.

 

* The pacing of the books was like a long running Japanese anime series, switching from periods of intense leaps in the story to excessive amounts of filler with no real balance between the two. The main series nearly ground to a complete halt over 2014 - 2015 with nothing but filler, only resuming to push the story forward again in 2016. And,

 

* There were just too many fingers in the pie. Too many authors with varying degrees of styles, interests and experience. Some of the authors simply "got it" and thrived. Others were experienced enough with a well grounded style to push out a good book no matter its content. Others... were just not suited to write the books they wrote in the series. (This last point is not a criticism of the author's skills, but their style or prose just didn't suit the content they wrote. Its as they say: a guitar player can only play a Bass guitar so well, despite their similarities.)

 

 

As a reader, I'm more looking forward to the idea of there not being a major series again. The Horus Heresy gets all the attention, and there are people that only read the HH series, which is just insane to me, in context. 

 

 

 

perhaps less insane in the context of a casual reader though?

[Roomsky]

 

 

As a reader, I'm more looking forward to the idea of there not being a major series again. The Horus Heresy gets all the attention, and there are people that only read the HH series, which is just insane to me, in context. 

 

 

 

perhaps less insane in the context of a casual reader though?

 

 

I don't know if its even necessarily restricted to that demographic.

 

I'm not at all surprised by the Horus Heresy favoritism, hell, its what got me into the setting after all. I'd say its popular because there is a feeling of going somewhere, that each novel is building to something exciting. I don't mean to imply that 40k fiction isn't exciting, nor am I really in favor of the 40k setting actually going anywhere because well, its a setting. Gaunt's Ghosts, The Black Legion, an armada of Inquisitor fiction, etc all make for great, interesting reads, but they don't really have the gravitas of the Heresy.

 

I feel there's an odd double-standard because of the Heresy series too. Series in 40k are concerned with telling their own plot, drawing from the wider universe but not necessarely impacting it, which might leave some readers feeling what they just read was pointless. Again, ridiculous of course, its not as if Lord of the Rings is dismissable because its not contributing to the eventual final battle with Morgoth. But sometimes I find myself guilty of slipping into that trap. Why read about some inquisitor on a fairly self contained adventure when I can read about the next piece of the puzzle in the Heresy mural. Why read about Ibram Gaunt when I can read about Roboute Guilliman, the fellow who helped shape the modern Imperium?

 

I guess "actions of consequence," is part of it, in that a bunch of IG dying pointlessly on a jungle world doesn't really mean anything. And yes, that's the point, but it lacks the selling point of "See the next step in the epic journey towards Terra!" And in the case of something like The Black Legion, while the series does feature many events of significant consequence, it doesn't really have the carrot on the string that is The Siege of Terra.

 

So I guess it comes down to "do you want interesting stories and characters" vs "do you want interesting stories and characters that are either famous background events, or directly contribute to the most important event in the fluff." Sort of an x vs x+1 scenario.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Roomsky

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

As a reader, I'm more looking forward to the idea of there not being a major series again. The Horus Heresy gets all the attention, and there are people that only read the HH series, which is just insane to me, in context. 

 

 

 

perhaps less insane in the context of a casual reader though?

 

 

I don't know if its even necessarily restricted to that demographic.

 

I'm not at all surprised by the Horus Heresy favoritism, hell, its what got me into the setting after all. I'd say its popular because there is a feeling of going somewhere, that each novel is building to something exciting. I don't mean to imply that 40k fiction isn't exciting, nor am I really in favor of the 40k setting actually going anywhere because well, its a setting. Gaunt's Ghosts, The Black Legion, an armada of Inquisitor fiction, etc all make for great, interesting reads, but they don't really have the gravitas of the Heresy.

 

I feel there's an odd double-standard because of the Heresy series too. Series in 40k are concerned with telling their own plot, drawing from the wider universe but not necessarely impacting it, which might leave some readers feeling what they just read was pointless. Again, ridiculous of course, its not as if Lord of the Rings is dismissable because its not contributing to the eventual final battle with Morgoth. But sometimes I find myself guilty of slipping into that trap. Why read about some inquisitor on a fairly self contained adventure when I can read about the next piece of the puzzle in the Heresy mural. Why read about Ibram Gaunt when I can read about Roboute Guilliman, the fellow who helped shape the modern Imperium?

 

I guess "actions of consequence," is part of it, in that a bunch of IG dying pointlessly on a jungle world doesn't really mean anything. And yes, that's the point, but it lacks the selling point of "See the next step in the epic journey towards Terra!" And in the case of something like The Black Legion, while the series does feature many events of significant consequence, it doesn't really have the carrot on the string that is The Siege of Terra.

 

So I guess it comes down to "do you want interesting stories and characters" vs "do you want interesting stories and characters that are either famous background events, or directly contribute to the most important event in the fluff." Sort of an x vs x+1 scenario.

 

 

 

i wonder if a focus or preference for "plot that matters" might be a relatively modern thing? 

[Phoebus]

I suppose everything else being equal, it would be more of a draw to read a setting-changing or setting-defining series than, say, a standalone novel (or series) that doesn’t have the same impact. The thing is, though, it’s not necessarily equal. If I only restricted myself to the Horus Heresy or the storylines emerging from the fall of Cadia, I’d be missing out on arguably some of the best fiction Black Library has put out.

 

I believe that this setting can support many, many rich, individual tales in addition to series based on those events that resonated throughout the galaxy. In my humble opinion, however, a balance needs to be maintained based on the number of authors Black Library has, as well as their relative strength. I haven’t really thought this out (much less considered it from the perspective of an author), but I wonder if, for instance, a series like The Beast Arises suffered from being released while the Horus Heresy was still running. Likewise, I could be seriously missing out on some good reading, but I can’t help but feel underwhelmed by the post-Cadia stories of Guilliman, Cawl, etc. - stuff that, if anything, should be just as powerful as the Heresy - given the absence of the Black Library’s biggest names from them. Basically, what I’m trying to say is that authors should absolutely be able to explore the setting and tell the tales that flesh it out; and while epic series should certainly continue, there is such a thing as getting greedy and possibly stretching the product thin.

[mc warhammer]

I suppose everything else being equal, it would be more of a draw to read a setting-changing or setting-defining series than, say, a standalone novel (or series) that doesn’t have the same impact. The thing is, though, it’s not necessarily equal. If I only restricted myself to the Horus Heresy or the storylines emerging from the fall of Cadia, I’d be missing out on arguably some of the best fiction Black Library has put out.

 

 

 

yeah, it seems that would be the way the majority leans...but it's not to my taste. i tend to prefer the 30k to 40k by a smidg, but would happily read 30k as a setting rather than a heresy storyline

[Ascanius]

 

It would be really interesting if several writers could agree to choose an element of the setting, or create a new one together, and work out a way to weave it through some otherwise standalone novels so that you resolve the big picture if you stand back, but up close each part is still an interesting vista of its own.

 

That's... actually a really good idea. Hmm.

 

  For instance, what if other writers did a story featuring one of the Mentors on assignment to a chapter not deeply enmeshed in mainstream Imperial culture?

 

Right now, BL would probably say "Aaron's literally doing that right now in Spear of the Emperor, do something else." But I see your point. I am intrigued and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

Don't mind me, just taking this as validation of my secret suspicions that I'd be an OK editor even though I can't write at all myself . . . 

 

Obviously, there are a lot of things introduced with 8th Edition that multiple writers will touch on in various ways - the Noctis Aeterna, the Great Rift, Primaris Space Marines, Guilliman's return, et cetera. The interest in standalone novels that touch on these developments will be naturally high, even if they're not explicitly connected.

 

You could also just do something like the way Dan Abnett's Eisenhorn and Ravenor stories are all set in the Helican Subsector, and Pariah takes place in an adjacent sub - write whatever kind of novel you want, Space Marines or Inquisition or Astra Militarum or Chaos or Orks, but work out how to put them all in the same place at more or less the same time (modulo the flexibility of Imperial (and Chaotic, and Ork) lifespans).

Edited September 27, 2017 by mhacdebhandia

[MrDarth151]

As a reader, I'm more looking forward to the idea of there not being a major series again. The Horus Heresy gets all the attention, and there are people that only read the HH series, which is just insane to me, in context. Most of the setting's densest lore / most imaginative ideas / best characters aren't in the Heresy series, and arguably no author's best writing or best book is in the Heresy, either. (Definitely subject to opinion, there, but there are 3-4 books of Dan's that I'd read before I touched his HH work, and I genuinely love his HH work. I'd put my Black Legion or Night Lords stuff up against my Heresy stuff any day of the week; same with John and Chris's Inquisition stuff against their Heresy stuff. And so on.)

 

40K is at its best when it has decent writers telling stories via the lenses through which they perceive the setting. It also stops the galaxy's shrinkage, where the same characters and the same factions show up everywhere all the time. When you have multiple authors telling diverse stories in entirely different ways, you're getting much closer to what 40K is.

 

There's too much reader interest (see this thread, and a million others elsewhere, calling for more series, for example) and too much money in doing "major" series, but from a personal fan standpoint, I think BL and the setting itself is at its best when the focus is away from the card-carrying famous stuff.

 

 

I do feel that it's less the fact of HH being a major series, and more of people being interested in the mythos. I know that was why I pick HH over most other books in 40k, because I just find the setting of them more interesting.

 

And there are some people that are just naturally drawn towards books dealing with massive background events. Immediate comparison that I'm drawn towards is how some fans of Tolkien's works prefer Silmarillion to Lord of the Rings because of that. I don't think it takes away from more "modern" 40k stuff, but there is just something inherently fascinating about reading basically mythology of your favourite universe.

 

Though I will agree that next thing I would like to see from BL would not be a big series. You know what I would love to see? Great Crusade, Horus Heresy and Scouring being opened to writers as settings. Not as a part of big narrative series, but simply as settings in which stories take place.

 

Emperor knows that Great Crusade especially could use some fleshing out, so that we can finally see the things that our characters lament the passing of. And without "Well, Great Crusade era Imperium is actually just as :cussty as the post-Horus Heresy Imperium, but with cooler toys", thank you.

[HeritorA]

 

 

 

As a reader, I'm more looking forward to the idea of there not being a major series again. The Horus Heresy gets all the attention, and there are people that only read the HH series, which is just insane to me, in context. 

 

 

 

perhaps less insane in the context of a casual reader though?

 

 

I don't know if its even necessarily restricted to that demographic.

 

I'm not at all surprised by the Horus Heresy favoritism, hell, its what got me into the setting after all. I'd say its popular because there is a feeling of going somewhere, that each novel is building to something exciting. I don't mean to imply that 40k fiction isn't exciting, nor am I really in favor of the 40k setting actually going anywhere because well, its a setting. Gaunt's Ghosts, The Black Legion, an armada of Inquisitor fiction, etc all make for great, interesting reads, but they don't really have the gravitas of the Heresy.

 

I feel there's an odd double-standard because of the Heresy series too. Series in 40k are concerned with telling their own plot, drawing from the wider universe but not necessarely impacting it, which might leave some readers feeling what they just read was pointless. Again, ridiculous of course, its not as if Lord of the Rings is dismissable because its not contributing to the eventual final battle with Morgoth. But sometimes I find myself guilty of slipping into that trap. Why read about some inquisitor on a fairly self contained adventure when I can read about the next piece of the puzzle in the Heresy mural. Why read about Ibram Gaunt when I can read about Roboute Guilliman, the fellow who helped shape the modern Imperium?

 

I guess "actions of consequence," is part of it, in that a bunch of IG dying pointlessly on a jungle world doesn't really mean anything. And yes, that's the point, but it lacks the selling point of "See the next step in the epic journey towards Terra!" And in the case of something like The Black Legion, while the series does feature many events of significant consequence, it doesn't really have the carrot on the string that is The Siege of Terra.

 

So I guess it comes down to "do you want interesting stories and characters" vs "do you want interesting stories and characters that are either famous background events, or directly contribute to the most important event in the fluff." Sort of an x vs x+1 scenario.

 

Horus Heresy got more people into the setting than all the BL released stories for W40K combined together.

After all - the best were used to create it. All the headliners at their prime.

Bligh was a great mastermind and Laurie a good editor.