Primaris and Loyalist Chapters With Traitor Geneseeds

[m0nolith]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Gulliman ordered Cawl not to release any Primaris who have their gene seeds drawn from traitor legions.

Although its never stated outright, there are many chapters whose gene-seeds are suspected to be from traitor legions or are chimeric and are at least partially from traitor gene stock, some being The Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, Silver Skulls, Carcharodons, Blood Ravens and several others.

 

Is there a lore justification for these chapters getting Primaris marines or do we just have to look the other way and not think about this?

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

iirc the Minotaur's are making their way to Terra to replenish their Geneseed after horrendous loses, and I highly doubt the high lords attack dogs are NOT gonna get the fancy new Primaris. 

[A D-B]

iirc the Minotaur's are making their way to Terra to replenish their Geneseed after horrendous loses, and I highly doubt the high lords attack dogs are NOT gonna get the fancy new Primaris. 

 

I'd take that anecdote with a grain of salt. They lost their fortress-monastery (a thing they don't actually have), for example. I think it's one of those 'loose canon' kinds of things.

[Rob P]

Isn't the ban on use of traitor geneseed a ban on cracking open the geneseed stocks from the founding traitor legions? (e.g. World Eaters, Death Guard, etc)

 

That the chapters mentioned may have been formed from traitor (or chimeric) geneseed is not common knowledge, or so I thought.

 

Plus Carcharadons are Raven Guard, no?

[bluntblade]

I thought that stuff was all a bit fuzzy.

 

To reference the most famous example, Last Son of Prospero doesn't actually dictate that the Blood Ravens aren't Loyalist TSons descendants, it's just that they'd have come from a different remnant. But it's not definite.

Edited September 22, 2017 by bluntblade

[m0nolith]

 

iirc the Minotaur's are making their way to Terra to replenish their Geneseed after horrendous loses, and I highly doubt the high lords attack dogs are NOT gonna get the fancy new Primaris.

 

I'd take that anecdote with a grain of salt. They lost their fortress-monastery (a thing they don't actually have), for example. I think it's one of those 'loose canon' kinds of things.

 

Given that fact that they are known to be a fleet based chapter, I'm saddens me to see how loose the lore around them is. I love the description of the Daedalus Krata; With its maze like corridors, in the center of the ship on a brass throne sits Asterion Moloc, counting the drops of blood spilled in his chapters interest.

An excellent analogue for an Imperial version of Khorne!

It'd be a shame if all of that excellent lore was to fall to the wayside because of loose cannon

 

Isn't the ban on use of traitor geneseed a ban on cracking open the geneseed stocks from the founding traitor legions? (e.g. World Eaters, Death Guard, etc)

 

That the chapters mentioned may have been formed from traitor (or chimeric) geneseed is not common knowledge, or so I thought.

 

Plus Carcharadons are Raven Guard, no?

 I think with Red Tithe (correct me if im wrong, I only heard about this, I havent read the book myself), it is implied that they come from both Raven Guard and Night Lords gene-stock. There is also a reference in HH Book 6 that mentions Blackshields named the Ashen Claws who are thought to have originated from an exiled nomadic Raven Guard force, defeating and stealing gene-seed from the Night Lords they encounter in their region of space.

 

I thought that stuff was all a bit fuzzy.

 

To reference the most famous example, Last Son of Prospero doesn't actually dictate that the Blood Ravens aren't Loyalist TSons descendants, it's just that they'd have come from a different remnant. But it's not definite.

 

True, its never defined and always implied, but there are oh so many things in the 40k universe that are alluded to and never defined, a benefit for the lore IMO. But when you have something you define by contradicting it, the lore suffers.

Edited September 22, 2017 by m0nolith

[Kelborn]

Until now, we don't have a canon answer to this.

 

I kind of believe that Guiliman might share the Primaris with the oldest chapters or those, which are in desperate need of reinforcements.

 

Considering possible traitor chapters:

 

- Carcharodons: Raven Guard, maybe with some Night Lords

- Minotaurs: either World Eaters or Iron Warriors

- Red Scorpions: Emperor's Children

- Silver Skulls: maybe Iron Warriors

- Blood Ravens: can still be Thousand Sons

- Sons of Antaeus: possible Death Guard

- Iron Snakes: there's a 4dchan theory about them being Alpha Legion loyalists

 

We know that the Carcharodons don't receive Primaris marines per se but they are granted with the technology and knowledge of how to create them by themselves.

This might be a good alternative to spreading all Primaris upon all chapters.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Kelborn

[bluntblade]

And Death Eagles are almost certainly sons of Fulgrim, as per the FW books

[b1soul]

Minotaurs are actually Thunder Warriors ;)

[m0nolith]

Minotaurs are actually Thunder Warriors ;)

That's a M Night Shyamalan level twist right there :D

[Kelborn]

Minotaurs are actually Thunder Warriors

 

Not bad, mate. Not bad.

[b1soul]

Do Minotaurs never show their faces in the Badab War fluff?

[Mellow]

They’ve got horns. Why else would they have such a rediculous name?!

[m0nolith]

Do Minotaurs never show their faces in the Badab War fluff?

No, Reclusiarch Ivanus Enkomi shows his face during war council meetings and is described as having red irises and crimson tattoos on his face.

[b1soul]

Red irises eh?

[Mellow]

I don’t recall any of the original Legions having red irises. Strange.

[Vesper]

 

iirc the Minotaur's are making their way to Terra to replenish their Geneseed after horrendous loses, and I highly doubt the high lords attack dogs are NOT gonna get the fancy new Primaris. 

 

I'd take that anecdote with a grain of salt. They lost their fortress-monastery (a thing they don't actually have), for example. I think it's one of those 'loose canon' kinds of things.

 

I had the feeling "fortress-monastery" was here used to qualify what de facto serves as their fortress-monastery : the Daedelos Krata.

But may be wrong, I suppose.

[A D-B]

 

 

iirc the Minotaur's are making their way to Terra to replenish their Geneseed after horrendous loses, and I highly doubt the high lords attack dogs are NOT gonna get the fancy new Primaris. 

 

I'd take that anecdote with a grain of salt. They lost their fortress-monastery (a thing they don't actually have), for example. I think it's one of those 'loose canon' kinds of things.

 

I had the feeling "fortress-monastery" was here used to qualify what de facto serves as their fortress-monastery : the Daedelos Krata.

But may be wrong, I suppose.

 

"But technically..." is a glorious defence indeed.

 

It's pretty clear that's not what was meant, but technically...

[Vesper]

The clarity of it must've escaped me. I kind of had the Phallanx or the Rock in mind when I read it along with ships being literal space faring cities/fortresses.

 

But you guys should've considered speaking french like the Normans. It would've made it easier for me.

 

EDIT : wrote literal with two "t", the french way. See what I'm saying ?

Edited September 24, 2017 by Vesper

[Conn Eremon]

You're not the only one, Vesper, who thinks of fortress-monasteries as being the flagship, or starfort, of fleet-based Chapters. I also assumed that the Minotaurs must have lost the Daedalos Krata.

 

I couldn't recall any exact source in canon for that being true, however, so I checked my Badab War books. On page 104 of the 2nd book, which starts off the Minotaurs, it states:

 

Chapter World/Deployment: . . . Fleet Based

Fortress Monastery: . . . . . . . . . .The Relic Ship Daedelos Krata

 

Other Badab War Chapters listed as fleet-based, or even previously fleet-based, also had ships as their fortress-monastery, though not all of them.

[Vesper]

Yeah. Kinda sorta.

 

Could be argued it's due to the standardized form of the report. But I'm not in a mood to argue either way. I wasn't trying to be a smartass or anything, it's just the simple, honest opinion I have on that perticular blurb.

 

I don't know if it's a mistake from the studio, it wouldn't be the first nor the last, but who cares ? We all get what happened to the Minotaurs and what they are up to right now.  It's far from the worst mistake (if it's one) we've been offered lately. Should we talk about Macragge's Honour being at the same time in the hands of the Red Corsairs and sailed by Guilliman ?

[RikuEru]

You're not the only one, Vesper, who thinks of fortress-monasteries as being the flagship, or starfort, of fleet-based Chapters. I also assumed that the Minotaurs must have lost the Daedalos Krata.

 

I couldn't recall any exact source in canon for that being true, however, so I checked my Badab War books. On page 104 of the 2nd book, which starts off the Minotaurs, it states:

 

Chapter World/Deployment: . . . Fleet Based

Fortress Monastery: . . . . . . . . . .The Relic Ship Daedelos Krata

 

Other Badab War Chapters listed as fleet-based, or even previously fleet-based, also had ships as their fortress-monastery, though not all of them.

And with that, the whole argument falls flat and dead like a heretic...

I thought it was obvious that Fleet based Chapters had a ship (not necessarily the flag-ship of the fleet, as that could be to risky) or star fort or base on a meteorite or conquered Space Hulk or some such as their de-facto "Fortress Monastery" (ot stand-in), just like the Rock, the Phalanx or the Daedalos Krata - atleast it was obvious in German Texts!?

 

So no retcon, no mistake, no "GW do not care for old lore" - quite the contrary, they held true to the information given about the chapter by the (by some deemed 'superior') Forgeworld Fluff.

Kudos to the guy at GW, who made that paragraph ;)

[m0nolith]

Edit: now that I've been caffeinated, Vesper your compleatley right. Good find!

But back on point, is there really moving in the lore right now that justifies chimeric and traitor Legion gene seed based chapters when it comes to having Primaris?

Edited September 24, 2017 by m0nolith

[A D-B]

This is adorable.

[Xisor]

In fairness, the amount of squinting and blurry reasoning one needs to align the loose-canon of 40k generally, it's not a terrible leap to think that the loss of the fortress monastery was written in ignorance. but can be forced to fit by asserting the retcon that it did mean the DK, not a literal ground-based fortress-monastery as originally implied.

 

It's a big ol' fudge to make things fit, but arguably worse items have been tidied up less elegantly.

Wolf Hunt

 

Of course, there's the converse approach: just outright contradict the thing and blaze past it. (Which is suitably fitting for the Minotaurs.)

 

"No, I don't know where that report came from. The Daedelos Katra is fine, we don't have a Fortress Monastery. Hey, Adeptus Terra, you've not accidentally named another new Chapter 'Minotaurs' again, have you?"