Primaris and Loyalist Chapters With Traitor Geneseeds

[A D-B]

Yeah. To clarify, I'm not saying it was 100% one way or the other. I'm saying it specifically says one thing, and there's a history of those sidebars clashing with lore / introducing new lore, and you can do a little work to say but technically it means another thing, but it really doesn't matter. 

 

Insisting it really means X is always going to be a foolish gambit we're all guilty of at times, especially on a technicality. Yes, someone from the Studio can easily say "It really meant that." And many people would take that as gospel. Consider it a typo, consider it a flub, consider it a technicality - it ultimately makes zero difference.

Edited September 25, 2017 by A D-B

[b1soul]

I don’t recall any of the original Legions having red irises. Strange.

Sallies have completely red-within-red eyes (not just red irises)...so I don't think Enkomi's eyes look like those of a Sally.

 

I recall Arik Taranis and Ghota had red eyes because of burst blood vessels in their eyes.

[Xisor]

Cadians have the ol' purple eyes too; so it may be zero to do with geneseed, all to do with recruits!

 

Perhaps they're also big on cosmetic adjustments as part of their chapter or company fashion?

 

(For example: I love the interpretation that Space Wolf/Salamander daft naming conventions [Wolfy McWolferson and his Wolf Axe of the Wolftime; Brother Ap'ostrop and his Flameanvil Dragonhammet.] are even viewed in-universe as peculiarly blatant/unsubtle. Less esteemed Chapters look on them as celebrities getting away with nonsense, as opposed to their dignified betters with deep traditions.)

[HeritorA]

Cadians have the ol' purple eyes too; so it may be zero to do with geneseed, all to do with recruits!

 

Perhaps they're also big on cosmetic adjustments as part of their chapter or company fashion?

 

(For example: I love the interpretation that Space Wolf/Salamander daft naming conventions [Wolfy McWolferson and his Wolf Axe of the Wolftime; Brother Ap'ostrop and his Flameanvil Dragonhammet.] are even viewed in-universe as peculiarly blatant/unsubtle. Less esteemed Chapters look on them as celebrities getting away with nonsense, as opposed to their dignified betters with deep traditions.)

Main part is - they HAD Xisor. Past tence

[m0nolith]

Yeah. To clarify, I'm not saying it was 100% one way or the other. I'm saying it specifically says one thing, and there's a history of those sidebars clashing with lore / introducing new lore, and you can do a little work to say but technically it means another thing, but it really doesn't matter. 

 

Insisting it really means X is always going to be a foolish gambit we're all guilty of at times, especially on a technicality. Yes, someone from the Studio can easily say "It really meant that." And many people would take that as gospel. Consider it a typo, consider it a flub, consider it a technicality - it ultimately makes zero difference.

Fair enough. Being that this is a forum dedicated to a this thing we do, its pretty normal for us to see patterns and rationalize justifications when there are none.

Ugh...damn it ADB, I wish you would do a Minotaurs novel... and a Blood Angels Heresy novel... and another Black Legion...you know what, im going to stop that now... sorry :(

 

 

I don’t recall any of the original Legions having red irises. Strange.

Sallies have completely red-within-red eyes (not just red irises)...so I don't think Enkomi's eyes look like those of a Sally.

 

I recall Arik Taranis and Ghota had red eyes because of burst blood vessels in their eyes.

 

Nah, Enkomi's eyes are a result of the feral word he was born from as stated in the book, so its not related to the gene-seed. 

All we know for sure about their gene seed is that its Chimeric, thats it.

[Jareddm]

I just switched out the Minotaurs for the Taurens.  Problem solved in my mind.

[Conn Eremon]

 

All we know for sure about their gene seed is that its Chimeric, thats it.Nah, Enkomi's eyes are a result of the feral word he was born from as stated in the book, so its not related to the gene-seed. 

 

 

I should also point out that when it says chimeric, it states that this can mean either prohibited gene-stock (which one could argue is not traitor legion gene-seed), mixed or otherwise modified gene-seed that's been experimented on, the latter of which the narrator points out was most likely with the Minotaurs.

 

Which gene-stock was experimented on to create the Minotaurs is unknown to the readers, but at least from the point of view of the Badab War IA narrative, that's most likely all there is to it.

 

That's of course assuming the Minotaurs of Badab are the same Minotaurs of the 21st Founding, which is not clear.

[b1soul]

"All we know for sure about their gene seed is that its Chimeric, thats it."

 

I actually didn't know tha

 

I guess with Chimeric geneseed, you either get the best of several worlds...or the worst

[HeritorA]

I just switched out the Minotaurs for the Taurens.  Problem solved in my mind.

Heresy! It is not WOW - though A D-B guilty of spending time in it.

 

That's of course assuming the Minotaurs of Badab are the same Minotaurs of the 21st Founding, which is not clear.

They are - in my humble opinion.

[Kelborn]

Ehm... there is a chapter named Tauren or so

 

First seen in DoW 2

[HeritorA]

Ehm... there is a chapter named Tauren or so

 

First seen in DoW 2

DOW2 does not have Tauren chapter - it was added later for the Elite mode by blizzard lovers

[Kelborn]

I was refering to these guys

 

warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Taurans

[HeritorA]

I was refering to these guys

 

warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Taurans

Me too. There are no 'Taurans' in DoW2 except for the 'elite' mode addition and made by fanbase

[Marshal Rohr]

When did the DK get destroyed?

[Sandlemad]

I just switched out the Minotaurs for the Taurens.  Problem solved in my mind.

 

Or the Brazen Minotaurs, or the White Minotaurs. Three chapters with 'minotaur' in their title and wearing brass/bronze armour, all running around in M41. ADB's point about how editorial errors can slip through stands but this is definitely one of the easier things to rationalise away through the in-universe excuse of imperial bureaucracy.

 

And that's before you get into Conn Eremon's point about the possible discontinuity between the cursed founding Minotaurs chapter and the chapter under Asterion Moloc.

 

EDIT: Emperor's Swords got nothing on these guys.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Sandlemad

[mc warhammer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Gulliman ordered Cawl not to release any Primaris who have their gene seeds drawn from traitor legions.

Although its never stated outright, there are many chapters whose gene-seeds are suspected to be from traitor legions or are chimeric and are at least partially from traitor gene stock, some being The Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, Silver Skulls, Carcharodons, Blood Ravens and several others.

 

Is there a lore justification for these chapters getting Primaris marines or do we just have to look the other way and not think about this?

 

guilliman: we need as many boots on the ground as possible, feel free to use the traitor gene-seed to create primaris. we must put aside our misgivings for the greater good of the imperium

 

cawl: ok, i'll just gather up some world eater gene-seed, some word bearer gene-seed aaaannnd some alpha legion gene-seed...

 

guilliman: NO. hate that guy. scrap the whole traitor thing-

 

cawl: but the greater g-

 

guilliam: SCRAP IT. hate his stupid face. hate his stupid seed

 

cawl: lmao ok

Edited September 27, 2017 by mc warhammer

[Ascanius]

Should we talk about Macragge's Honour being at the same time in the hands of the Red Corsairs and sailed by Guilliman?

 

Pfft, as if it's not both, and one of them just doesn't know it's not the original. Though I suppose Guilliman would know.

[HeritorA]

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Gulliman ordered Cawl not to release any Primaris who have their gene seeds drawn from traitor legions.

Although its never stated outright, there are many chapters whose gene-seeds are suspected to be from traitor legions or are chimeric and are at least partially from traitor gene stock, some being The Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, Silver Skulls, Carcharodons, Blood Ravens and several others.

 

Is there a lore justification for these chapters getting Primaris marines or do we just have to look the other way and not think about this?

 

guilliman: we need as many boots on the ground as possible, feel free to use the traitor gene-seed to create primaris. we must put aside our misgivings for the greater good of the imperium

 

cawl: ok, i'll just gather up some world eater gene-seed, some word bearer gene-seed aaaannnd some alpha legion gene-seed...

 

guilliman: NO. hate that guy. scrap the whole traitor thing-

 

cawl: but the greater g-

 

guilliam: SCRAP IT. hate his stupid face. hate his stupid seed

 

cawl: lmao ok

 

Exactly how it all went. Lol.

Nice one mc warhammer

[b1soul]

Now that most of the Traitor Primarchs are Daemon Princes with Warp powers...they might be able to influence any Astartes with their geneseed through sorcerous means. It's risky to use traitor geneseed.

[A D-B]

Now that most of the Traitor Primarchs are Daemon Princes with Warp powers...they might be able to influence any Astartes with their geneseed through sorcerous means. It's risky to use traitor geneseed.

 

I dunno. We've got 40K models for them now, and that inevitably means suddenly they'll show up more in official materials and/or lead every single incursion of their subfactions, but they've been in the lore and active in the galaxy for ages. If they could do that, they'd likely have done it before now. (The argument, of course, is that they may have done it before, we just don't know.)

 

Traitor gene-seed in loyalist Chapters isn't a hugely rare thing, all things considered. And that's cool. It's only when using that Traitor gene-seed gets both confirmed and somehow magically makes a Chapter better or interesting to Chaos for no realistic reason, that my lore gland starts squirting oily, defensive bile. If the most interesting thing about a Chapter is "We're made from bad guys' DNA" then, well, that's a boring-ass Chapter relying on an awful trope.

 

Also... is it really risky to use Traitor gene-seed? The Cursed and Dark Foundings would point to yes, but not everything that went wrong happened to confirmed Traitor gene-seed Chapters, and it's always been just an allusion for most of them anyway. The counterpoint to that is that I know several Chapters that are perfectly loyal that are genuinely 100% made from Traitor gene-seed, which we know behind the scenes, but we don't confirm it in official text because it makes no difference and it's not something anyone in the Imperium will ever know.

[Xisor]

It's something Aliette de Bodard (another insightful ADB author for this topic!) mentioned on twitter a while back that's stuck in my mind: speculative fiction has a big ol' problem in fixation with purity and bloodlines. Sometimes it's used to good effect, but mostly it's adding extra weight to the already questionable focus it gets given in the 'real world'.

 

In terms of headcanon, except for the issue experienced by the Emperor's Children, the Wulfen, the Salamanders, the absence of certain organs for the Fists, and the complexions of the Raven Guard/Night Lords, I think the 'psychological dispositions' side of things should be massively undermined.

 

E.g. plenty of chapters *trained* by Blood Angels/Successors (but not themselves Blood Angels genetic descent) should find themselves suffering the thirst and the rage. For the Storm Giants, Fire Lords, and Black Dragons? *Trained* by Salamanders veterans, but genetically far more in common with... Consecrators or Iron Fists or something.

 

Really reinforce that *genetic* lineage is only a small component of what makes a person. It might dictate certain abilities (e.g. perma-paleskin, no ability to spit acid), but the grand psychology of the Chapter will be far more dominated by circumstance, experiences, encounters, and who your trainers were.

 

I suppose what I'm distinguishing is between Successor (genetic, let's call it an Ad Mech term) and Scion (training/tradition) Chapters.

 

I'd prefer a far greater focus on that latter aspect, and agree with both ADBs on the idea that reliance on bloodline purity itself as anything other than an indicator of some biomedical specifics... well, that sort of reliance is daft.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Xisor

[Phoebus]

Here's a question: what is gained by the use of Traitor Gene-seed?

 

My initial thought was that, as heretical as this might sound, the realization that Space Wolf gene-seed was both mutated and apparently not viable outside of Fenrisian stock, that the Imperial Fists had lost the use of two organs, and that the Blood Angels were unstable, led at least certain agents within the Imperium to look at Traitor Gene-seed as a viable alternative. Thinking more on it, though, and assuming the cyclical process of gene-seed creation and cultivation is a constantly ongoing endeavor, it would seem that even an absolutely negligible amount of pure gene-seed  percentage would suffice to meet the needs of the twenty-four subsequent Foundings (the ones where Chapters were created by means other than the division of the Legiones Astartes, and which appear to have been spaced several centuries apart). I mean, if Index Astartes I: Creation of a Space Marine is correct, a Chapter can be created every fifty-five years or so. There might be religious and cultural considerations that drive the use of gene-seed other than that of the V and XIII Legions (I don't include the Ist Legio, whose gene-seed is comparable to XIII's in terms of purity, but isn't trusted, or the Xth Legion, who might be seen as psychologically undesirable), but I'm not sure there is a need to make up numbers by looking to the repositories of Traitor Legion Gene-seed.

 

Could it a case of the of the powers-that-be simply running an experiment? That is, simply a curiosity-driven effort, to determine if Traitor Gene-seed is inherently tainted?

[Jareddm]

 I mean, if Index Astartes I: Creation of a Space Marine is correct, a Chapter can be created every fifty-five years or so. 

It's not.  Or at least, Laurie has said that it's not.  I had asked about this and several other progenoid-production questions last year.

But in addition to that, I feel the Imperium may be lacking in quite a few QC procedures you'd normally expect from such an undertaking.  Loss of progenoid during a founding may be a sizable portion.  First the zygotes from the progenoid have to successfully culture into implants without failure or mutation.  Then the flesh bags used to grow them need to not reject the implants.  Then they need to survive long enough for the implants to mature.  At each step, a sizable portion of geneseed could be lost due to faulty equipment, contamination, inefficieny, or simply missing an important step because that page of the instructions was accidentally included in a purge of heretical knowledge 1,800 years ago.

[Sete]

All that is in the past.

Now you have the Primaris Marines with a Huge, the biggest ever, successful implantation process with 0.2 % of mutation or whatever.

We can reliably assume that all those problems are gone. I really want to see where this will be going.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Sete

[RikuEru]

All that is in the past.

Now you have the Primaris Marines with a Huge, the biggest ever, successful implantation process with 0.2 % of mutation or whatever.

We can reliably assume that all those problems are gone. I really want to see where this will be going.

Atleast that is what Cawl, a totally-unsuspicious and entirely-trustworthy misunderstood Radical of the Adeptus Mechanicus is reporting to Guilliman, via a totally-not-Artificial-Intelligence Device. In Universe. ;)