Primaris and Loyalist Chapters With Traitor Geneseeds

[Phoebus]

Jareddm,

 

Can you clarify what Laurie’s updates were? To be more clear, I’m on board with the idea that the Imperium’d imperfect technology precludes the nominal 55-year timeline from being the reality, but unless the failure rate is absolutely atrocious, the exponential growth rate of gene-seed means that even an absolutely minimal amount of it should result in a significant amount come Founding time. I mean, if only a few hundred sets of Progenoids were collected following the Second Founding (which is hardly a stretch), I question to what extent - if any - the Imperium had any need to explore using Traitor Gene-seed.

[Jareddm]

Jareddm,

 

Can you clarify what Laurie’s updates were? To be more clear, I’m on board with the idea that the Imperium’d imperfect technology precludes the nominal 55-year timeline from being the reality, but unless the failure rate is absolutely atrocious, the exponential growth rate of gene-seed means that even an absolutely minimal amount of it should result in a significant amount come Founding time. I mean, if only a few hundred sets of Progenoids were collected following the Second Founding (which is hardly a stretch), I question to what extent - if any - the Imperium had any need to explore using Traitor Gene-seed.

Enjoy the whole thread, in context.

 

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=1959&st=30&&do=findComment&comment=40002179

[Phoebus]

Thanks!

[Xisor]

In fairness, they also just published an IA on Space Marine creation in a recent White Dwarf - I'm sure it was mostly C+P. Also, bear in mind Laurie had foreknowledge of the coming Primaris - that may have factored into his thinking, even if he was duty-bound not to explicitly or coyly mention it.

[Phoebus]

Okay, having perused that thread, I'd like to make a couple of observations.

 

I'm not necessarily invested in the idea that old lore is always in effect. I get that this setting changes, and I'm not opposed to nuanced, considered changes that steer it toward being better. That having been said, I think it's fair to point out that Laurie was talking about a Chapter being rebuilt around a single survivor and the attendant challenges. By contrast, I'm talking about the Adeptus Mechanicus and the other agencies responsible for creating a Chapter from scratch doing just that, by utilizing the gene-seed tithed to them from the Adeptus Astartes. So again, the old lore may very well change, but I don't think anything has changed in terms of how long it takes to cultivate Progenoids and develop them into the next batch of organs. Furthermore, even if the success rates Laurie described don't improve despite the process being controlled by the most knowledgeable agencies in the Imperium, even awful results would allow a comparatively miniscule amount of gene-seed to grow into prodigious amounts within a decades.

 

How awful, you ask? Codex: Grey Knights argued that something like four hundred Chapters were created as part of the Second Founding. For the sake of argument, let's throw that out and assume only the named Chapters in the Apocrypha of Davio were formed then (we know that's not true, but whatever). Next, let's assume that those Chapters were only half-strength. On top of that, let's assume that they only tithed 1% of their gene-seed the first time around. Finally, let's only use Ultamarine stock, since obviously all the other Chapters are not good enough (I jest). Within those highly restrictive parameters, they, and their named Successors (a total of nine Chapters), would be able to provide a mere 45 Gene-seed Progenoids. To make things even more challenging, let's ignore the 55-year benchmark referenced by Index Astartes, and instead use an entirely arbitrary 20-year process - to account for extra rituals, even more failure, and so on. Even given all this, the number of Progenoids effectively double every two decades, which would result in 1,440 such organs after just a century of cultivation and reproduction. That number becomes 46,080 after two centuries, and 1,474,560 after three centuries.

 

Now, to be fair, we don’t know what the failure rates actually were. In fact, we don’t even know if the gene-seed creation and cultivation process is constantly ongoing. That having been said, "The Aegidan Oath", by Laurie Goulding, references the Third Founding as occurring "nearly a thousand years" after the events of the Heresy. However bad the failure rates of this process actually were, by this point in time and following forty years of preparation, the High Lords of Terra were prepared to grant at least “more than a hundred Chapters” writs of succession. I could be completely misreading the situation, but it doesn’t appear as if there is a shortage of gene-seed by the waning years of M31, which leads me to wonder just what the driving force behind experimentation with Traitor stock was.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Phoebus

[mc warhammer]

 

Now that most of the Traitor Primarchs are Daemon Princes with Warp powers...they might be able to influence any Astartes with their geneseed through sorcerous means. It's risky to use traitor geneseed.

 

The counterpoint to that is that I know several Chapters that are perfectly loyal that are genuinely 100% made from Traitor gene-seed, which we know behind the scenes, but we don't confirm it in official text because it makes no difference and it's not something anyone in the Imperium will ever know.

 

 

for you bts guys, how does that knowledge play in to the eventual depiction of the chapters? i take your point that it's a poor rack to hang a hat on as far as the defining trait of a chapter goes, but does gw use it in a way to make creative choices concerning the chapters themselves or the imperium in general? or is it more in-joke trivia for the creators to pass around amongst themselves for flavouring?

 

some shows i've worked on have a "series bible" that has similar background unknown to viewers (and often the actors), that informs the plot and characters behind the scenes. the thing with tv is that eventually these secrets will be revealed and played out for all they're worth if the series continues for long enough (unless the writers dump the ideas mid-way, which happens).  40k seems to be a different beast, so i'm genuinely interested in how its utilised

Edited September 29, 2017 by mc warhammer

[HeritorA]

'some shows i've worked on have a "series bible" that has similar background unknown to viewers (and often the actors), that informs the plot and characters behind the scenes. the thing with tv is that eventually these secrets will be revealed and played out for all they're worth if the series continues for long enough (unless the writers dump the ideas mid-way, which happens).  40k seems to be a different beast, so i'm genuinely interested in how its utilised' -

 

Indeed. We all are. The nearest future have a lot of stuff for us. And how it all will went further eventually.

Fabius should help with the geneseed case for the CSM.