Likeable Alpha Legion

[bluntblade]

Adeptus - my point is within that context, the Alpha Legion are singled out.

[Phoebus]

If that was addressed to me, then I agree. Also, if that’s your device’s auto-correct suggestion for my name, that’s awesome! ;) Edited October 1, 2017 by Phoebus

[bluntblade]

Wasn't directed at you, but at the chap with the GK avatar.

[slitth]

I think we should be very careful with call any legion more cruel than a other legion.

 

Sure the Alpha Legion will do things that we would most likely seen as cruel or wrong.

But look at what they are trying to achieve.

Worlds that have not true will for rebellion or treachery.

To do that take a lot of information, complex planning and extreme brutality.

We are talking about killing, converting or crushing the will to fight back of every person on a planet.

 

Comparing that to what other legion call a compliment world and they will seem a bit naive.

 

And it would call it just as cruel to expect a world to accept the imperium as a compassionate ruler after it has brutally crush is armies and are in the proses of destroying its cultural heritage. Because that what the great crusade was doing to all worlds that resisted.

Edited October 1, 2017 by slitth

[Phoebus]

I agree with the larger point that you’re trying to make, but even within the context of the Imperium and the Great Crusade certain legions are worse than others. So no, we shouldn’t think of the Salamanders as human existence by our standards, but they certainly aren’t as bad as, say, the Night Lords, whose means (terrorizing people and inflicting hideous torture) eventually became the ends themselves.

[Sulemain]

The Alpha Legion made the hard, cruel and necessary work of the Great Crusade harder and crueler by their actions. Even Primarchs like Leman Russ understood what was and wasn't needed in terms of violence. 

[b1soul]

On Alpharius' height...

 

Sometimes primarchs are portrayed as only a head taller than marines (Russ). That could mean Alpharius is around the same height as Russ

[mc warhammer]

On Alpharius' height...

 

Sometimes primarchs are portrayed as only a head taller than marines (Russ). That could mean Alpharius is around the same height as Russ

 

from that scene that phoebus quoted, it's clear that alpharius is taller than archamus and also taller than ingo pech and silonius. so as a shorter primarch, he's still bigger than a hulking marine. i imagined pech being around abaddon height, and if alpharius is taller than either that puts him on the standard primarch scale. which basically means, yeah, maybe russ' height.

 

though, archamus did detect some sort of possible machine enhancement in alpharius' movements- so maybe we can't trust that either.

 

i'm actually confused as to why i care

[mc warhammer]

 

as a minor tangent to your minor aside: didnt the alpharius trolls dorn scene also settle the alpharius is a shorty debate?

It settles (about as much as anything related to the Alpha Legion can settle anything about them) that Alpharius and the warriors he chooses to masquerade as or have masquerade as himself are ...

 

... shorter than Dorn, but taller than [Archamus] – very large for legionaries, but within a blurred zone of size that made it difficult to judge whether they were legionary or primarch.”

 

Excerpt From

Praetorian of Dorn

John French

https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/praetorian-of-dorn/id1141796257?mt=11

This material may be protected by copyright.

Where this topic (or at least where one of rendigon1+’s concerns) is concerned, however, the issue is whether or not it was Alpharius who was present in the dealings with Lord Commander Teng Namatjira. In my humble opinion, the implication in Legion is that it’s Sheed Ranko who is playing “Omegon” when Dinas Chayne stabs him halfway through the novel, and who is playing “Alpharius” when the Lucifer Black stabs him again at the very end: the phrase “that’s all you get” being the common denominator in those two encounter.

 

 

i'd agree here. any appearance of alpharius (especially masked) that isn't verified by another primarch is more than likely not him/them.

 

kinda makes me wonder why alpharius even bothered to test dorn's ability to sniff him out. surely alpharius/omegon would be aware of a primarch's keen perception from the times they played dress ups at home

[HeritorA]

On Alpharius' height...

 

Sometimes primarchs are portrayed as only a head taller than marines (Russ). That could mean Alpharius is around the same height as Russ

True. Plus it is always said that they are bigger than usual SM anyway.

 

 

The Alpha Legion made the hard, cruel and necessary work of the Great Crusade harder and crueler by their actions. Even Primarchs like Leman Russ understood what was and wasn't needed in terms of violence. 

True. The main issue of AL is pride and wish always to prove themselves better. They could strike for some nobody want objective just to prove that they are better.

[rendingon1+]

The Alpha Legion made the hard, cruel and necessary work of the Great Crusade harder and crueler by their actions. Even Primarchs like Leman Russ understood what was and wasn't needed in terms of violence.

Can you provide us with some sources to support your claim that AL campaigns were more genocidal than for example SW, WE, DG or any other?

[HeritorA]

 

The Alpha Legion made the hard, cruel and necessary work of the Great Crusade harder and crueler by their actions. Even Primarchs like Leman Russ understood what was and wasn't needed in terms of violence.

Can you provide us with some sources to support your claim that AL campaigns were more genocidal than for example SW, WE, DG or any other?

 

 

Forge World HH book 3 with a lot of campaigns background on AL. They poisoned on genetical level population of several sectors just to prevent xenos reborn cicle. Which in the end result helped to annihilate the xenos.

In the end same FW HH book 3 states that AL prefer methodical/genocidal campaigns with a lot of civilian casualties, no matter the cost. Just to fully exterminate the xenos threat

[Brother Captain Kezef]

 

 

The Alpha Legion made the hard, cruel and necessary work of the Great Crusade harder and crueler by their actions. Even Primarchs like Leman Russ understood what was and wasn't needed in terms of violence.

Can you provide us with some sources to support your claim that AL campaigns were more genocidal than for example SW, WE, DG or any other?

 

 

Forge World HH book 3 with a lot of campaigns background on AL. They poisoned on genetical level population of several sectors just to prevent xenos reborn cicle. Which in the end result helped to annihilate the xenos.

In the end same FW HH book 3 states that AL prefer methodical/genocidal campaigns with a lot of civilian casualties, no matter the cost. Just to fully exterminate the xenos threat

 

 

How is that any different to the actions of the SW and DA during the Rangdan Xenocides? This wholesale genocide is what gave the SW their bad rep in fact.

[Phoebus]

It's been a little while since I've read the snippets on the Rangdan Xenocides, but I think the distinction is that the Alpha Legion killed great numbers of humans in their attempt to exterminate a xenos parasite species... whereas the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were focused purely on the xenos enemy.

[bluntblade]

And it's suggested that they went OTT crippling worlds which would likely have capitulated to a simple display of strength, with the suggestion that they did it for their own aggrandisement. The WB also fell under suspicion for overzealous prosecution of human enemies at times.

[HeritorA]

 

 

 

The Alpha Legion made the hard, cruel and necessary work of the Great Crusade harder and crueler by their actions. Even Primarchs like Leman Russ understood what was and wasn't needed in terms of violence.

Can you provide us with some sources to support your claim that AL campaigns were more genocidal than for example SW, WE, DG or any other?

 

 

Forge World HH book 3 with a lot of campaigns background on AL. They poisoned on genetical level population of several sectors just to prevent xenos reborn cicle. Which in the end result helped to annihilate the xenos.

In the end same FW HH book 3 states that AL prefer methodical/genocidal campaigns with a lot of civilian casualties, no matter the cost. Just to fully exterminate the xenos threat

 

 

How is that any different to the actions of the SW and DA during the Rangdan Xenocides? This wholesale genocide is what gave the SW their bad rep in fact.

 

Well - can't imagine we can compare AL genocide to exterminate xenos with massive Imperium defense against attacking xenos enemy even more powerful then Imperium on the rise?

This wholesale genocide is what gave the SW their bad rep in fact. - really? Only that?

Maybe the fact they were used from time to time to exterminate auxilary contingents and SM squads?

[rendingon1+]

 

 

 

The Alpha Legion made the hard, cruel and necessary work of the Great Crusade harder and crueler by their actions. Even Primarchs like Leman Russ understood what was and wasn't needed in terms of violence.

Can you provide us with some sources to support your claim that AL campaigns were more genocidal than for example SW, WE, DG or any other?

Forge World HH book 3 with a lot of campaigns background on AL. They poisoned on genetical level population of several sectors just to prevent xenos reborn cicle. Which in the end result helped to annihilate the xenos.

In the end same FW HH book 3 states that AL prefer methodical/genocidal campaigns with a lot of civilian casualties, no matter the cost. Just to fully exterminate the xenos threat

You've only missed a small detail that only 7% of entire population died to the virus and otherwise it was non lethal to humans. It's hardly a genocide. Another example please. :/

[slitth]

I think it depends on who you ask in the imperium.

 

In "Prospero Burns" there is a combat master from a G9K Division that have fought with the Death Guard, the Blood Angels, the White Scars and the Space Wolves.

He thought that the Space Wolves are the worst of the Astartes.

 

In my opinion I would rank the Death Guard higher in terms of cruelty, because of the use of "dirty" weapons.

No that the Alpha Legion would shy away for using the same weapons as the death guard.

I just think the would prefer a weapon with more control.

[HeritorA]

 

 

 

The Alpha Legion made the hard, cruel and necessary work of the Great Crusade harder and crueler by their actions. Even Primarchs like Leman Russ understood what was and wasn't needed in terms of violence.

Can you provide us with some sources to support your claim that AL campaigns were more genocidal than for example SW, WE, DG or any other?

Forge World HH book 3 with a lot of campaigns background on AL. They poisoned on genetical level population of several sectors just to prevent xenos reborn cicle. Which in the end result helped to annihilate the xenos.

In the end same FW HH book 3 states that AL prefer methodical/genocidal campaigns with a lot of civilian casualties, no matter the cost. Just to fully exterminate the xenos threat

You've only missed a small detail that only 7% of entire population died to the virus and otherwise it was non lethal to humans. It's hardly a genocide. Another example please. :/

 

7 % in the scope of several sectors - do you know how many millions that mean?

FW HH book 3, mentions in the 'Legion' etc. Again - if it is written they use 'genocide' to reach results it is expected for your imagination to agree with what owners of the setting tell you.

slitth

Space Wolves as any other SM Legion use 'dirty' weapons if needed. Point is DG use it indiscriminently - just for the juice of it.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Guys, you are missing the point. It was clearly indicated in the last FW HH book that the Space Wolves and DA where involved in eliminating the HUMAN populations tainted by the Rangdan. Here is a direct quote:

 

"What remained was for the
Rangdan taint to be purged in a subsequent
decade-long series of bio-pogroms that left
entire human inhabited sectors lifeless to
ensure what was hoped to be a final victory.
It was then given to the Space Wolves of
the Vlth and the Dark Angels of the I" -the
latter who had suffered themselves so very
dreadfully against the horror- to conduct
these purges, these two Legions entrusted
above all others to do what had to be done."

[Brother Lunkhead]

Dan Abnett's Legion is one of my favorite HH books. It really threw a monkey wrench into my view of the Alpha Legion. Perhaps they weren't the duplicitous, backstabbing chaos renegade scum that I always took them to be. By the end of the novel I found that I had to reevaluate my view of the AL. In the end I rather liked them.

 

Their unconventional methods of warfare (some say dishonorable... I respectfully disagree) perfectly suite a small legion. Are they cruel? No more than any of the other legions. The destruction of Monarchia in 'The First Heretic' comes to mind. Even my beloved XIIIth Legion was capable of some magnificent :cussry action on behalf of The Emperor.

 

The AL are certainly ruthless when they have to be, but that doesn't seem to define them. For example, they could have simply sacrificed the Dancers as simple pawns in their first action on Nurth rather than intervene to minimize their casualties once the AL trap was sprung. The treatment of Soneka  and Bronzi are other examples. Each incident where they showed compassion for their human counterparts it would have been more expedient to simply sacrifice them.

 

I think the Alpha Legion is much more than they seem to be on the surface. Perhaps they are still doing The Emperor's work in their own unconventional way... or they are duplicitous, backstabbing chaos renegade scum. I'm afraid it's all in the hands of Black Library and Games Workshop. Secrets and Lies indeed (I'm sure those words are prominent in the GW mission statement). We'll just have to wait and see.

 

 

[Phoebus]

Guys, you are missing the point. It was clearly indicated in the last FW HH book that the Space Wolves and DA where involved in eliminating the HUMAN populations tainted by the Rangdan. Here is a direct quote:

 

"What remained was for the

Rangdan taint to be purged in a subsequent

decade-long series of bio-pogroms that left

entire human inhabited sectors lifeless to

ensure what was hoped to be a final victory.

It was then given to the Space Wolves of

the Vlth and the Dark Angels of the I" -the

latter who had suffered themselves so very

dreadfully against the horror- to conduct

these purges, these two Legions entrusted

above all others to do what had to be done."

Gah, I just recently read Inferno, too, and I completely forgot about that part! 

[b1soul]

In "Prospero Burns" there is a combat master from a G9K Division that have fought with the Death Guard, the Blood Angels, the White Scars and the Space Wolves.

He thought that the Space Wolves are the worst of the Astartes.

Well, he thought the SW were worse than those three other legions

 

Here's the quote

‘You don’t approve of Astartes then, combat master?’ Hawser asked as they strode through the camp.

 

‘Not at all. Extraordinary things. Like I said, I’ve seen them fight four times.’

. . .

‘The Death Guard, once,’ he said, holding up a finger to begin a tally. ‘Murderous efficiency with such small numbers.

 

Blood Angels.’ Another raised finger. ‘A firefight gone bad in a casein works on one of the Fraemium moons. They arrived like… like angels. I don’t mean to be glib. They saved us. It was like they were coming to save our souls.’

 

Korine looked at Hawser. He raised a third finger.

 

‘White Scars, side by side, for six months on the plains of X173 Plural, hosing xeno-forms. Total focus and dedication, merciless. I cannot, hand on my heart, fault their duty, devotion.'

 

‘You said four times,’ Hawser pressed.

 

‘I did,’ said Korine. He raised a fourth finger in a gesture that reminded Hawser of surrender.

 

‘The Space Wolves, two years ago non-adjusted. Dekk Company, they called themselves. They came in to support our actions during the Kobolt scrap. I’d heard stories. We’d all heard stories.’

 

‘What kind of stories?’

 

‘That there are Space Marines and there are Space Marines. That there are supermen and there are monsters. That in order to breed the Astartes perfection, the Emperor Who Guides Us All has gone too far once or twice, and made things he should not have made . . . '

 

It's a bit odd that he likes DG more than SW, but perhaps he is the type who is more repulsed by feral barbarity than DG-style attrition warfare.

 

Makes sense that he likes BA and WS more...

 

Based on his assessments, the BA who saved him were obviously not badly afflicted like the Red Thirst and the WS who served with him might have been disciplined Terrans a la Torghun

[Brother Captain Kezef]

 

In "Prospero Burns" there is a combat master from a G9K Division that have fought with the Death Guard, the Blood Angels, the White Scars and the Space Wolves.

He thought that the Space Wolves are the worst of the Astartes.

Well, he thought the SW were worse than those three other legions

 

Here's the quote

‘You don’t approve of Astartes then, combat master?’ Hawser asked as they strode through the camp.

 

‘Not at all. Extraordinary things. Like I said, I’ve seen them fight four times.’

. . .

‘The Death Guard, once,’ he said, holding up a finger to begin a tally. ‘Murderous efficiency with such small numbers.

 

Blood Angels.’ Another raised finger. ‘A firefight gone bad in a casein works on one of the Fraemium moons. They arrived like… like angels. I don’t mean to be glib. They saved us. It was like they were coming to save our souls.’

 

Korine looked at Hawser. He raised a third finger.

 

‘White Scars, side by side, for six months on the plains of X173 Plural, hosing xeno-forms. Total focus and dedication, merciless. I cannot, hand on my heart, fault their duty, devotion.'

 

‘You said four times,’ Hawser pressed.

 

‘I did,’ said Korine. He raised a fourth finger in a gesture that reminded Hawser of surrender.

 

‘The Space Wolves, two years ago non-adjusted. Dekk Company, they called themselves. They came in to support our actions during the Kobolt scrap. I’d heard stories. We’d all heard stories.’

 

‘What kind of stories?’

 

‘That there are Space Marines and there are Space Marines. That there are supermen and there are monsters. That in order to breed the Astartes perfection, the Emperor Who Guides Us All has gone too far once or twice, and made things he should not have made . . . '

 

It's a bit odd that he likes DG more than SW, but perhaps he is the type who is more repulsed by feral barbarity than DG-style attrition warfare.

 

Makes sense that he likes BA and WS more...

 

Based on his assessments, the BA who saved him were obviously not badly afflicted like the Red Thirst and the WS who served with him might have been disciplined Terrans a la Torghun

 

 

The quote says nothing about discipline, only mentions the dedication and duty of the WS. Also Fear To Tread makes it pretty clear that prior to Signus Prime the black rage was rare and kept hidden.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I do wonder if there is a certain amount of projection going on here.

 

Before ADB the Wordbearers where the mustache twirling bad guys in every story. Bland, boring and stereotypical. ADB gave them character, soul and explained their actions from their own perspective.

 

Legion did the same for the AL but most novels involving them have been from a loyalist viewpoint, also I think some folks have a certain narrow vision, focusing on the negative aspects of the AL.

 

Some posts here are starting to make them out to be worse than the Night Lords or World Eaters!

 

The simple fact is NO legion is "good" and no legion is "bad", not until they turn to chaos at least. Each legion goes about it's business with a clear goal, using the strength and characteristics of their individual legion to expand, secure and defend the imperium.

 

Even the terror tactics of the Night Lords have a specific goal, to ensure they only need to pacify a world once, inflict so much terror and pain that the populaion will remember for generations and never dare raise objection to the new order. However bad the imperial governor and regime may be, it's better than the Night Lords returning.

 

Some legions try to maintain their "humanity" such as the Blood Angels and Salamanders while others accept the reality that they are nothing more than weapons to be wielded by the Emperor.