Likeable Alpha Legion

[b1soul]

The quote says nothing about discipline, only mentions the dedication and duty of the WS.

Oops...I left a bit out.

 

'Total focus and dedication, merciless. I cannot, hand on my heart, fault their duty, devotion to the Crusade cause, or their supreme effort as warriors.’

 

You're right...the word "discipline" is not mentioned, but "focus", "dedication", and "duty" imply discipline (to this reader at least) and do not strike me as traits of the typical Chogorian warrior, someone like Shiban or Jubal.

 

I recall in Templar, Sigismund tells Jubal that the latter lacks focus. Jubal responds that Sigimund lacks joy.

 

EDIT:

Sigismund opened his mouth, forming words with a jaw that felt broken. ‘You were beaten because you lack focus.’

‘And you lack joy.’

‘We exist to serve.’

‘And there is nothing more?’

Sigismund shook his head. ‘Nothing more.’

Jubal looked around, blinking, as though seeing the watching ranks of legionaries for the first time.

 

So again...that description of WS in Prospero Burns does not mesh with what I've read about Chogorian Scars.

 

Also Fear To Tread makes it pretty clear that prior to Signus Prime the black rage was rare and kept hidden.

Red Thirst and Black Rage are two separate afflictions.

 

Prior to Signus, I don't think there were any cases of Black Rage. Think about what the Black Rage is...wouldn't make sense.

 

Red Thirst cases were rare though not unheard of. As such, it does make sense that the IA guy had a relatively pleasant experience with the BA, so I don't think we're disagreeing.

Edited October 5, 2017 by b1soul

[Phoebus]

I'd be careful with the Sigismund quote. Jubal lacks focus? Compared to Sigismund, who is practically monomaniacal in his discipline, perhaps? No Astartes who isn't saddled with the Butcher's Nails or psychologically damaged lacks focus in the way we're thinking, though.

[bluntblade]

To fight an action like Kalium without catastrophic losses took discipline after all.

[HeritorA]

Guys, you are missing the point. It was clearly indicated in the last FW HH book that the Space Wolves and DA where involved in eliminating the HUMAN populations tainted by the Rangdan. Here is a direct quote:

 

"What remained was for the

Rangdan taint to be purged in a subsequent

decade-long series of bio-pogroms that left

entire human inhabited sectors lifeless to

ensure what was hoped to be a final victory.

It was then given to the Space Wolves of

the Vlth and the Dark Angels of the I" -the

latter who had suffered themselves so very

dreadfully against the horror- to conduct

these purges, these two Legions entrusted

above all others to do what had to be done."

Which was a diviation from their usual tactic. Both prefer to spare human resources as much as possible. Rangdan was a massive apocalyptic warfare - Imperium was losing. They did not have a choice.

 

AL on the other hand - always look for conflicts then where should be none. They 'masterminded' wars just to prove themselves - doesn't matter the casualties.

[slitth]

 

Guys, you are missing the point. It was clearly indicated in the last FW HH book that the Space Wolves and DA where involved in eliminating the HUMAN populations tainted by the Rangdan. Here is a direct quote:

 

"What remained was for the

Rangdan taint to be purged in a subsequent

decade-long series of bio-pogroms that left

entire human inhabited sectors lifeless to

ensure what was hoped to be a final victory.

It was then given to the Space Wolves of

the Vlth and the Dark Angels of the I" -the

latter who had suffered themselves so very

dreadfully against the horror- to conduct

these purges, these two Legions entrusted

above all others to do what had to be done."

Which was a diviation from their usual tactic. Both prefer to spare human resources as much as possible. Rangdan was a massive apocalyptic warfare - Imperium was losing. They did not have a choice.

 

AL on the other hand - always look for conflicts then where should be none. They 'masterminded' wars just to prove themselves - doesn't matter the casualties.

 

 

I have never read or hear of the Alpha Legion inventing or 'masterminded' conflicts.

There is simply no need to invent anything, there are plenty of foes to prove themselves against.

Obvious or otherwise.

What they got a reputation for it to be needless creativity in their prosecuting a foe.

[Sandlemad]

 

The quote says nothing about discipline, only mentions the dedication and duty of the WS.

Oops...I left a bit out.

 

'Total focus and dedication, merciless. I cannot, hand on my heart, fault their duty, devotion to the Crusade cause, or their supreme effort as warriors.’

 

You're right...the word "discipline" is not mentioned, but "focus", "dedication", and "duty" imply discipline (to this reader at least) and do not strike me as traits of the typical Chogorian warrior, someone like Shiban or Jubal.

 

I recall in Templar, Sigismund tells Jubal that the latter lacks focus. Jubal responds that Sigimund lacks joy.

 

So again...that description of WS in Prospero Burns does not mesh with what I've read about Chogorian Scars.

 

 

It's a wee bit off-topic from the subject of the Alpha Legion but I interpret the officer's statement and Sigismund's claim as fitting into a wider belief in the imperium that the Vth legion were absent-minded or unreliable as allies.

 

Think of what Ilya Ravallion knows about them before she joins the legion. Think of what Fulgrim says, about how they would rather be off jetting about the galaxy. Guilliman admires the Khan but doesn't want to rely on him. They're a headache to crusade command and the newly formed departmento munitorium. Even Shiban chides his own legion for not being sticklers for detail when it comes to properly purging a world of orks.

Fickle, 'quixotic', difficult to supply or coordinate with; if people in the wider imperium think anything about the Vth legion, it's that. I'm not saying that they're correct, only that it's how they're commonly perceived. Sigismund's got a one-track mind, sure, but outside of the context of that duel, he's saying what everyone else is thinking anyway.

 

I see the officer's statement as protesting against that perception of the WS. He specifically mentions their 'devotion to the Crusade cause'. It's not stated in that passage but it feels like he's reacting to this wider reputation they have, this reputation of being less dedicated to the ideals of the great crusade, of wanting to speed off ahead. But he's met them and he's fought alongside them and he's telling Hawser that no, it's all nonsense, they are dedicated warriors and he did not see anything wrong with their commitment. Just like Ravallion eventually came around to in Scars and Path of Heaven. It's about perceptions, rather than strictly quantifiable 'focus', as if that were a thing.

 

By contrast, then, the officer's saying that he's not easily fooled or overawed by a legion's notoriety. He knows the Space Wolves' monstrous reputation and Hawser should bloody well believe him when he says that it's absolutely true. The officer met the WS and despite their reputation, they impressed him. He also met the SW and was horrified, probably because (based on Inferno) they semi-deliberately cultivate this distance and this perception as monsters.

 

Don't forget as well that Inferno indicates that the well-known parts of the SW's history are particularly wrapped up in mass field executions and suppression of imperial army troops. Soldiers gossip and just like the Iron Warriors (former 'Corpse Grinders'), a lot of the imperial army are going to hate and fear them more than other astartes. It's not about ranking them on a ruthlessness scale from 1-10, it's about how they're perceived.

[slitth]

Well everything is about perspective.

I highly doubt that the Alpha Legion see them-self as needless cruel or that their plans are to complex.

They probably have complex plans because they want to make damn sure that they win and get the job done right the first time.

 

And perhaps this is true, or perhaps they are overdoing things to feed the ego.

 

But I doubt that we will ever find out if the writers do their job right.

As much as I would like the complete truth about the Alpha Legion, I know that it's more important to maintain the sense of mystery.

 

That would allow the writers to give us villains like Malus Darkblade and anti-heroes like Jason Bourne without breaking the legion theme.

Edited October 5, 2017 by slitth

[b1soul]

I'd be careful with the Sigismund quote. Jubal lacks focus? Compared to Sigismund, who is practically monomaniacal in his discipline, perhaps? No Astartes who isn't saddled with the Butcher's Nails or psychologically damaged lacks focus in the way we're thinking, though.

Valid point...

 

But I don't think Sigismund would say to Alajos (or a UM champion or an EC champion etc.) that he lacks focus.

 

I think Jubal's lack of focus represents a defining trait common among the the Vth's "laughing killers", who tend to fight with flare, wild energy, artistry and passion. Sigismund easily picked up on Jubal's greatest strength (and greatest weakness).

 

I agree that untampered Astartes, including Chogorian WS, should all be more focused and competent than mortal warriors...but we're comparing Astartes to Astartes.

 

I don't think the Vth's forte is "focus" and "duty" and it struck me as just a tad bit odd that the mortal soldier who had served with the BA, DG, WS, and SW would highlight those traits when speaking of the WS. Then I thought it would make perfect sense if the man served with Terran Scars like Torghun and his company.

 

It's just a theory on my part of course.

[HeritorA]

 

 

Guys, you are missing the point. It was clearly indicated in the last FW HH book that the Space Wolves and DA where involved in eliminating the HUMAN populations tainted by the Rangdan. Here is a direct quote:

 

"What remained was for the

Rangdan taint to be purged in a subsequent

decade-long series of bio-pogroms that left

entire human inhabited sectors lifeless to

ensure what was hoped to be a final victory.

It was then given to the Space Wolves of

the Vlth and the Dark Angels of the I" -the

latter who had suffered themselves so very

dreadfully against the horror- to conduct

these purges, these two Legions entrusted

above all others to do what had to be done."

Which was a diviation from their usual tactic. Both prefer to spare human resources as much as possible. Rangdan was a massive apocalyptic warfare - Imperium was losing. They did not have a choice.

 

AL on the other hand - always look for conflicts then where should be none. They 'masterminded' wars just to prove themselves - doesn't matter the casualties.

 

 

I have never read or hear of the Alpha Legion inventing or 'masterminded' conflicts.

There is simply no need to invent anything, there are plenty of foes to prove themselves against.

Obvious or otherwise.

What they got a reputation for it to be needless creativity in their prosecuting a foe.

 

 

Actually all FW Horus Heresy books at the sections where AL is figured states that Alpha Legion invent half or  the conflicts just to prove the point, instead of peacefully resolve it.

Most of all you need to read book 3 'Extermantion' which covers AL backstory and conflicts. There are a lot of 'that' where.

As for the BL part - John French 'Praetorian of Dorn' novel has one of the chapters in which Dorn and Alpharius discuss one particular conflict that was planned to be resolved for good with a definite plan, but went full over the head with the AL plan (cause AL think it was a better way to resolve it).

In every book which has AL > almost every author mention concerning AL: 'Your biggest issue is Pride'.

[slitth]

 

Actually all FW Horus Heresy books at the sections where AL is figured states that Alpha Legion invent half or  the conflicts just to prove the point, instead of peacefully resolve it.

Most of all you need to read book 3 'Extermantion' which covers AL backstory and conflicts. There are a lot of 'that' where.

As for the BL part - John French 'Praetorian of Dorn' novel has one of the chapters in which Dorn and Alpharius discuss one particular conflict that was planned to be resolved for good with a definite plan, but went full over the head with the AL plan (cause AL think it was a better way to resolve it).

In every book which has AL > almost every author mention concerning AL: 'Your biggest issue is Pride'.

 

 

If you are referring to this part of "Extermination"

 

Hidden Content

In time the accusation had started to become such common currency among the Terran Court and many Imperial commanders that the Alpha Legion had now become seemingly addicted to bringing low civilizations by anarchy, fire and blood that might have been brought into Compliance readily though negotiation or a limited display of force, rather than be turned into strife--torn ruins as a test of the Alpha Legions skill.

 

This accusation started after Horus became Warmaster.

So probably happen after the events in "Legion" and this new behaviour is probably caused by the event in "Legion"

 

Meaning that they have either gone insane or are preparing for the heresy.

No need to have more world loyal to the imperium if you are gonna rebel against it

[Plaguecaster]

One thing that should be interesting is Rob Sanders new Sons of the Hydra novel which is coming out this year

 

Looks pretty damn good

"THE STORY

In the hostile universe of the 41st millennium, where allegiances are ever fickle, few of the Emperor’s sons are more difficult to understand or predict than the Alpha Legion. Branded traitor since the Heresy, their motives and actions have always been shrouded in mystery. Alpha Legionnaire Occam the Untrue leads his warband out of its hunting grounds in the Maelstrom on an epic quest for salvation, not just for himself, but for his whole Legion. With the forces of the Inquisition snapping at their heels, Occam and his followers must use all their guile and considerable martial prowess as they make their way to the cold heart of the galaxy, to a confrontation that no one, least of all Occam himself, could have foreseen. "

[b1soul]

I prefer Abnett's AL to Sander's...but this sounds interesting

[Brother Lunkhead]

I too prefer Abnett's AL. I must confess that until 'Legion' AL fiction didn't appeal to me much. Sure, they looked very cool and I really liked the idea of the legion that used deception and espionage as key elements of their strategy, but quite often in the literature they came off as mustache twirling backstabber marines. No disrespect meant to the very talented stable of writers that BL has (arguably the best in game fiction). Most SF/F authors generaly write more broadly than other genre writers. Space Marine battle fiction especially doesn't lend itself well to complex subplots.

 

It would be interesting to see a more subtle espionage based story ala John Le Carre featuring the Alpha Legion. I think Abnett could pull it off, but he's not doing a lot with BL these days. Pity.

[slitth]

If you want an espionage story, then they need to focus more on the Sparatoi.

It hard to have person walk around in power armour and be super sneaky in a non combat situation.

No, we need to leave the power armour behind and let the marine and their agents take the lead.

 

I could be cool to see the build up to a harrowing seen from a Sparatoi point of view.

That way we would get to see more about the relationship between the Harrowing and the marines.

And a good old build up with espionage and infiltration ending with a good old massacre. 

[rendingon1+]

If you want an espionage story, then they need to focus more on the Sparatoi.

It hard to have person walk around in power armour and be super sneaky in a non combat situation.

No, we need to leave the power armour behind and let the marine and their agents take the lead.

 

I could be cool to see the build up to a harrowing seen from a Sparatoi point of view.

That way we would get to see more about the relationship between the Harrowing and the marines.

And a good old build up with espionage and infiltration ending with a good old massacre.

You just decsribed the Harrowing by Rob Sanders ;-)

[slitth]

 

You just decsribed the Harrowing by Rob Sanders ;-)

 

Yes and no.

 

The Harrowing only show us one small piece of the puzzle that is the harrowing of Callistra Mundi.

There is much more to tell.

Like build up to the attack on the Omnissiah and the aftermath.

There are a lot of small stories with Sparatoi and marines, how we may come to love or hate depending on how the story is presented.

So the Fall of Callistra Mundi could become a epic novel if manages to uphold the same level of quality as the Harrowing.