Tactical Squad Variants and Analysis

[Schlitzaf]

This is the first post I plan to make, over the course of next couple weeks to month or so, about Tactical Squads and their variants. (College permitting). This week will focus, on the core Tactical Squad, and the three basic variants, the Tactical Squad, Crusader Squad, Chaos Marines, and Grey Hunters. The foremost concept that was been repeated again and again, for every variant, has been the most efficient is a 5 man MSU, with double special (Special + Combi-Special) and cheap power weapon. All those variants come at around 100. (before transport).

 

Tactical Squad - 97; Plasma, CombiPlasma, PowSword, 3x Bolters

Chaos Space Marine - 97 (83); Plasma, CombiPlasma, PowSword, 3x Bolters Or Chain (or sometimes 2x Plasma Pistols)

Crusaders - 101; Plasma, CombiPlasma, 2x PowSword, 3x Bolter or Chain

Grey Hunter - 102(109):, Plasma, CombiPlasma, 1x PowSword, 3x Bolter&Chain, (and sometimes 1x Plasma Pistol)

 

So for core points efficiency if that is all desired, all four will be rated the same, as they all three within similar points. Through the three variants, by nature had a tad a bit more in natural flexibility. Now then, before any further discussion, is done, I wanted to establish the dream efficiency.

 

Devastator (or equivalent) Squad, with 4 Heavies (or Specials), come out to be 150-170 range for tank hunting or 100-120 for firefighting. Clarity of purpose.

 

Devastator or Equivalent:

If armed with 4 Heavy Weapons (Lascannons, Autocannons, Missiles Launchers etc), 160ish.

If armed instead with Firefight Weapons (Heavy Bolters, PlasmaGuns, Flamers etc), 100ish.

 

If for each 25 point a squad can get Special/Infantry, its considered golden. For each 40 if it can get a heavy it considered golden. The most efficient variant, double special at 100, fails the special tests. So if we try and judge it these squads, that way from the start we are bound to be disappointed. Now then let us look at Vangaurd (with Jump Pack) and Company Veterans (with Storm Bolter). To establish a melee and bolter bro baseline.

 

Vangaurd, at 5 man with Packs and no Power Weapons. 90 Points. 16 (20) Attacks. 5 Wounds.

Veterans with 5 man, at firefight range, are 90 point points put 20 (36) attacks. 5 Wounds. (and 11-16 melee attacks).

 

This tells us for squads dedicated to that role, every attacks equates to 4-5 points, so that is our second baseline.

 

The above squads at their basic 5 Man MSU setup (the so called most efficient), for Tacticals, 97 Points, at firefight range they have two firefight weapons, if you recall is worth 50 points. Then it has 12 BolterBro attacks. That is worth 40ish points. 90 Points. Essentially breaking even with points on the exchange. The Crusaders, Grey Hunter and Chaos Marines will have a similar issue, once those points are concerned.

 

Melee each squad will put out 2-3 power weapon attacks (a bit better or worse than firefighter weapons). So if a squad has a PowWeapon, we'll treat it as third firefight weapon (its truthfully more complicated but the damage output is similar enough. Crusader squads gains 10 points because 3 PowWeapon attacks). So that means we are actually actually 20 (30 for Crusader) points up. The regular tactical squad, only puts out three attacks. Adding another 5ish points for Tactical Bros ending at 25 points up (35 for Crusader), (however for Crusader/Chaos Marine replace BolterBro Melee attacks with Pistol Bro attacks. You might gain one or two attacks).

 

Grey Hunters with both Chainsword and Bolter, however puts out 6 attacks. So It comes out to only the efficency total to 31 points. The overall winner for firefight and melee is as expected the Veterans (Company Veterans given Storm Bolter and Chainswords). To sum up for sake of clarity and understanding.

 

Every 2 attacks a Squad makes in a Phase, its worth 4-5 Points. Each Firefight weapon is worth 20 points (additionally 2 PowSwords = 1 Special). Heavy Style Weapons are worth 40-50 points. So If going for pure efficiency of attacks, for raw value. Company Veterans win overall, however at 5 man limitation, and lack of general flexibility its not truly comparable to the role of Troops which is to be bulk out your force.

 

-------------------------

Each Tactical Variant by raw numbers

100 Points (no upgrades)

A) Tactical, 104 points, 8 wounds, 16 Bolters at Firefight Range, 10 Attacks in Melee.

B) Crusaders, 109 points, 9 Wounds, 2 Bolter Shots or 1 Pistol shot per a wound in firefight range,

-----Puts out 11-20 melee (4 Wounds on 4+ Sv)

C) Chaos Marine, 104 Points, 8 Wounds, 2 Bolter Shots or 1 Pistol per wound in firefight range, and

-----Puts out 10-18 melee

D) Grey Hunters, 98 Points, 7 Wounds, 14 Bolter shots, puts out 18 attacks in melee

 

On a base level by attacks per point spent, Grey Hunters, win by a mile, however by durability, the Crusaders are superior. Through it should be noted, the points here semi-arbitrary, as I tried to stay in 90-110 point range. An 8th Hunter, would be 112 points, and arguably more comparable to the other squads. Now then, some readers may recall posts I made in Chaos Marine and Grey Hunter forum asking for regular loadouts. The basic answer was essentially was either 5 mans noted above or 10 man variants of that. So lets take a look at those squads.

 

------------

A) Tactical (included for sake of completeness):

----180ish (10 Man) 14 BolterBros in Firefight. 1 Heavy Attack. 2 Special Bro

----2 PowWeapon. 9 Melee Attacks

B) Crusader: 150ish or 180ish.

---At 150: (10 Man: 6-4): 2 Bolter or 1 Pistol Attack Per Wound-2. 2 Special Bros.

---3 PowWeapon Attacks. 8-15 Melee Attacks. (4 Wounds at 4+)

or

---At 180: (14 Man: 7-7): 2 Bolter or 1 Pistol Per Wound-2 in Firefight. 2 Special Bros.

---3 PowWeapon Attacks. 12-23 Melee Attacks. (7 Wounds at 4+)

C) Chaos Marine*

---180ish Points: (10 Man): 2 Bolter or 1 Pistol Per Wound-3 in Firefight. 2-4 PowWeapon Attack

---1 Special Bro, 0-2 Special or 0-2 Heavy Bro, 9-16 Melee attacks.

D) Grey Hunters*

---200ish Points (10 Man): 2 Bolter Per Wound-3 in Firefight. 3 Special Bros. 4-6 PowWeapon Attack

---Adds 1 to advance and charge. 16 Melee Attacks.

 

*Plasma Pistols treated as an additional PowWeapon Attack.

 

For large squads, Crusader 'full' squad, at 10 man is the most efficient delivery system. However the Grey Hunter is the most efficient at 3 for 70 to the Crusaders 2 for 80. As normal the Hunters shine out the other variants by raw attacks and numbers. However compare to the other three, they are 20 points more than the 180 variants. Essentially paying 20-30 points for 1 special or 2 PowWeapon, 8 attacks and the Wolf Banner. What is not shown here is the flexibility of the Tactical Squad.

 

All the other squads are forced to maintain 10 man squad configuration and lack on battlefield adaptability. The tactical squad single advantage over its variant is has a better ability to adapt to the changing battlefield environment for 1 CP to combat squad. Other aspects not demonstrated the Crusaders could take a Heavy if they wanted too. However Crusader squads are unlikely to do if larger than 5 man (a better comparison would be replace two Neos from the efficient comparison, for a Heavy and do the math as appropriate. Now for the meat of how useful/good are Tacticals ahd their variants compared to their more specialized brethren.

 

Tactical Squads:

180: 1 Heavy, 2 Specials, and 2 PowWeapon. 80 Points, pre-attack. 23 Attacks total. You end having 10 points in value above what you paid for. 10 Wounds

 

Crusader Squads:

180: 2 Specials, 3 PowWeapon. 110 points pre-attack. 34 Attacks. You end up being 26 points above what you paid for. 14 Wounds

150: 2 Specials, 3 PowWeapon. 80 Points Pre-attack. 23 Attacks Total. You end up like the base tactical squads 10 above what you paid for in value. 10 Wounds

 

Chaos Marine

180: 2 Heavy or 2 Special, 1 Special, 2-4 Pow Weapons. 90 or 60 Pre-Attack. 23 Attack Total. If special loadout you break even if Heavy loadout you gain about 32 point. 10 Wounds.

 

Grey Hunter

200: 3 Special. 5 Pow Weapon. 90 Points Pre-Attack. 30 Attacks Total. You end up saving about 30 points more than you would. 10 Wound and Wolf Banner.

 

Each squad actual firepower is about what you would expect given what you paid for. With the Crusader Squad is the 'cheapest' or durable method of taking 10 man squads and the double special. Chaos Marines are the most efficient load out if you take double heavy squad. However Grey Hunters are the most efficient in terms of special and pow weapon attacks, and non diffused target priorities. In time I intend to look to GK Strike Squads and Deathwatch Kill-Teams. Alongside Intercessors as a break one day because it'll be simple. Thank you for your time, critique and criticism welcome.

 

(Forgot to mention in the main post. I am not looking/discussing Tactics in relation to these units or I’d be writing a novel)

Edited October 4, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[jerrys]

hey -

For grey hunters -- the combi guy is the sixth guy. So you can't have a squad of 5 with a plasmagun and a combi-plasma.

For 5 guys, I guess the best we can do is:

1x chainsword, plasma pistol, and bolter

1x chainsword, bolt pistol, and plasmagun

1x power weapon, bolt pistol, and bolter (grey hunter pack leader with 2A)

2x chainsword, bolt pistol, and bolter

for 94pts.

Then we can add a 6th guy (wolf guard pack leader with 2A) with a power weapon and combi-plasma.

But that takes us up to 127pts.

(sorry about that!)

[jerrys]

If this is interesting: I have a simulator that I can put these guys through.

(I might have made some mistakes here, but I think it's right.)

 

I just did the 5 man squads for now (plus a couple of variations, including 6-man grey hunters variants). For efficiency (points killed per turn per point), attacking a fearless MEQ who doesn't fight back, I get these:

 

shooting:

unit1,unit1pts,unit2,pts_killed_per_turn,pts_killed_per_turn_per_pts
5-tacs-1pg-1cp-1ps,97,gh-target-dummy,30.2366,0.3117
6-gh-2pg,112,gh-target-dummy,32.5520,0.2906
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps,101,gh-target-dummy,28.5121,0.2823
6-gh-2pg-2ps,120,gh-target-dummy,33.2340,0.2769
5-gh-1pg,83,gh-target-dummy,22.8611,0.2754
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-1ps-3cs,97,gh-target-dummy,25.6620,0.2646
6-gh-2pg-2ps-1pp,127,gh-target-dummy,33.3960,0.2630
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps-2cs,101,gh-target-dummy,25.1780,0.2493
5-gh-1pg-1ps-pp,94,gh-target-dummy,22.9500,0.2441
 

assault:

unit1,unit1pts,unit2,pts_killed_per_turn,pts_killed_per_turn_per_pts
5-gh-1pg-1ps-pp,94,gh-target-dummy,48.2323,0.5131
6-gh-2pg-2ps-1pp,127,gh-target-dummy,64.2911,0.5062
6-gh-2pg-2ps,120,gh-target-dummy,59.2162,0.4935
5-gh-1pg,83,gh-target-dummy,39.3465,0.4741
6-gh-2pg,112,gh-target-dummy,50.1337,0.4476
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps-2cs,101,gh-target-dummy,44.2420,0.4380
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-1ps-3cs,97,gh-target-dummy,41.7664,0.4306
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps,101,gh-target-dummy,38.4910,0.3811
5-tacs-1pg-1cp-1ps,97,gh-target-dummy,33.8438,0.3489
 

shoot-once-then-assault (a mix):

unit1,unit1pts,unit2,pts_killed_per_turn,pts_killed_per_turn_per_pts
6-gh-2pg-2ps,120,gh-target-dummy,91.9708,0.7664
6-gh-2pg-2ps-1pp,127,gh-target-dummy,96.2861,0.7582
5-gh-1pg-1ps-pp,94,gh-target-dummy,69.8006,0.7426
5-gh-1pg,83,gh-target-dummy,60.1288,0.7244
6-gh-2pg,112,gh-target-dummy,79.5287,0.7101
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps-2cs,101,gh-target-dummy,68.7734,0.6809
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-1ps-3cs,97,gh-target-dummy,65.1451,0.6716
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps,101,gh-target-dummy,62.5549,0.6194
5-tacs-1pg-1cp-1ps,97,gh-target-dummy,55.7978,0.5752
 

An interesting thing is that against e.g. boyz or guard, the chainswords are more efficient than the power swords.

 

$ awk -F',' 'BEGIN{OFS=",";} {print $1,$2,$3,$(NF-1),$NF}' data-schlitzaf/efficiency-assault.csv | grep -E '(per_pts|boyz-targe)'
unit1,unit1pts,unit2,pts_killed_per_turn,pts_killed_per_turn_per_pts
5-gh-1pg,83,boyz-target-dummy,41.6236,0.5015
6-gh-2pg,112,boyz-target-dummy,51.6139,0.4608
5-gh-1pg-1ps-pp,94,boyz-target-dummy,41.9169,0.4459
6-gh-2pg-2ps,120,boyz-target-dummy,50.1655,0.4180
6-gh-2pg-2ps-1pp,127,boyz-target-dummy,51.5710,0.4061
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-1ps-3cs,97,boyz-target-dummy,37.6874,0.3885
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps-2cs,101,boyz-target-dummy,35.3860,0.3504
5-tacs-1pg-1cp-1ps,97,boyz-target-dummy,28.1220,0.2899
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps,101,boyz-target-dummy,28.4871,0.2821

 

If I have them all fight one another 1000 times each (which is not at all a reasonable thing to do -- the more expensive ones will just win -- but I struggle to come up with a meaningful way to summarize all of the data, and this is easy), it comes out like this:

 

data/matrix-assault.txt
6-gh-2pg-2ps-1pp(127) wins: 9 losses: 0 draws: 0
6-gh-2pg-2ps(120) wins: 8 losses: 0 draws: 1
6-gh-2pg(112) wins: 7 losses: 1 draws: 1
5-gh-1pg-1ps-pp(94) wins: 6 losses: 2 draws: 1
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps-2cs(101) wins: 4 losses: 2 draws: 3
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps(101) wins: 2 losses: 2 draws: 5
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-1ps-3cs(97) wins: 2 losses: 2 draws: 5
5-gh-1pg(83) wins: 1 losses: 3 draws: 5
5-tacs-1pg-1cp-1ps(97) wins: 0 losses: 3 draws: 6

data/matrix-shooting.txt
6-gh-2pg-2ps-1pp(127) wins: 9 losses: 0 draws: 0
6-gh-2pg-2ps(120) wins: 9 losses: 0 draws: 0
6-gh-2pg(112) wins: 9 losses: 0 draws: 0
5-tacs-1pg-1cp-1ps(97) wins: 6 losses: 0 draws: 3
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps-2cs(101) wins: 6 losses: 0 draws: 3
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps(101) wins: 6 losses: 0 draws: 3
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-1ps-3cs(97) wins: 6 losses: 0 draws: 3
5-gh-1pg-1ps-pp(94) wins: 2 losses: 3 draws: 4
5-gh-1pg(83) wins: 2 losses: 3 draws: 4

data/matrix-shoot-once-then-assault.txt
6-gh-2pg-2ps-1pp(127) wins: 9 losses: 0 draws: 0
6-gh-2pg-2ps(120) wins: 9 losses: 0 draws: 0
6-gh-2pg(112) wins: 9 losses: 0 draws: 0
5-tacs-1pg-1cp-1ps(97) wins: 7 losses: 0 draws: 2
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps-2cs(101) wins: 7 losses: 0 draws: 2
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps(101) wins: 7 losses: 0 draws: 2
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-1ps-3cs(97) wins: 7 losses: 0 draws: 2
5-gh-1pg-1ps-pp(94) wins: 6 losses: 0 draws: 3
5-gh-1pg(83) wins: 2 losses: 2 draws: 5
 

Edited October 5, 2017 by jerrys

[Schlitzaf]

Did you calculate the Crusades as having 3 PowSword attacks as an aside?

 

Nevermind rereading the chart I assuming PS stands for PowSword

Edited October 5, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[jerrys]

Yes, there is one 2A guy with a power sword (ps) and 1 1A guy with a power sword. (pg is for plasmagun, cp is for combi-plasma (though I think in a couple spots i called a combi-plasma a plasmagun, and in the simulation they are the same except that the combi costs more points), cs is for chainsword.)

To me, it seems a bit of a waste to give the 1A guy a power weapon. The nice thing about the 6-man grey hunter squad is you can have 2 2A guys with power weapons (the grey hunter pack leader plus a wolf guard pack leader).

 

I edited the post to add a column to the csvs for "pts_killed_per_turn" -- effectiveness. There you can see that the 2 power sword crusader squad does kill more points per turn of grey hunters (44.2) than e.g. the 5 grey hunter squad with just one plasmagun (39.3) -- i.e. they are more effective -- but the crusaders are more expensive by such a margin (101 vs 83) that they are still less efficient than that minimal grey hunter squad (due to the chainswords, I guess).

 

unit1,unit1pts,unit2,pts_killed_per_turn,pts_killed_per_turn_per_pts
5-gh-1pg,83,gh-target-dummy,39.3465,0.4741
5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps-2cs,101,gh-target-dummy,44.2420,0.4380

I put up a(n extremely half-assed) web UI into the simulator (well, into the duel part, not the efficiency part) here, if you want to screw around with it:

http://www.aurumvorax.com/40ksim/do-battle.php?battle_type=shoot-once-then-assault&num_matches=1&unit1=5-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps-2cs.txt&unit2=5-gh-1pg.txt

If you do a small number of battles, it will show you every die roll so you can see how it works.

If you do a large number of battles, it will give you an aggregate result like this:

unit1 unit1pts unit2 unit2pts wins_1 wins_2 draws avg_turns avg_kills_1 avg_pts_killed_1 avg_remaining_1 avg_pts_remaining_1 avg_kills_2 avg_pts_killed_2 avg_remaining_2 avg_pts_remaining_25-crusaders-1pg-1cp-2ps-2cs 101 5-gh-1pg 83 84 16 0 2.05 4.61 75.46 3.04 68.84 1.96 32.16 0.39 7.54

Which basically means: when the 5 crusaders get the jump on the 5 grey hunters, they win 84 out of 100 duels, in an average of 2 turns, with an average of 2 models left at the end.

Edited October 5, 2017 by jerrys

[Stoic Raptor]

I don't think you can have a Tactical squad with a heavy and two Specials.  Am I misunderstanding something?

[Schlitzaf]

Heavy, Special and Combi

[Stoic Raptor]

Then how do they get two power weapons?  The Sergeant can't have a combi and two other weapons, unless something changed and I missed it.

[Schlitzaf]

Oh! That is the number of attacks. 2 Special (or FireFight Weapons i.e 9-13 point range (so Heavy Bolters included here), 1 Heavy (15-25 point range weapons) and 2 PowWeapon Attacks. (Sgt has two Power Weapon Attacks)

[Stoic Raptor]

OK, thank you for clarifying.

[Schlitzaf]

So with recent chapter approved changes I decided to do an updated analysis. First and foremost, basic criteria. So pardon the bump, the criteria won’t be extensively discussed in relation to the units. But it is here if someone wants to use it.

————————

Criteria 1) Chaff Clearing

If a squad has 1 STR 4 Or Bolter attack per 4 Points spent that is considered excellent (JetVangaurd, have with Double Chain or Chain/BP have 1 Bolter Attack per 4.25 Points Spent). 162ish Points should be able to kill an 11 Wound Gaurd Squad.

 

Criteria 2) Heavy Armor/Heavy Infantry

If a squad puts out 1 Damage vs T7 w/ 3+ per every 25 Points Spent (a 6 Man Devi Squad with 3 Lascannons and Cherub) it’s considered excellent. In other words dealing 5-6 Damage for 160 Points to Rhino’s or taking 3 Two Wound Models.

 

Criteria 3) Light Tank Or Medium Infantry Killing

If squad can kill 1 MEQ per 30 Points Spent (a Devestator Squad with 3 Heavy Bolters and Cherub) are also considered excellent. Otherwords dealing 2-4 damage to a Landspeeder/Sentinal Or killing 3 Marines for 100 Points.

 

————

Finally general rule of thumb, some of this is the same as what has been said above but demonstrated in a non-Squad manner

 

Power Weapons/StormBolter (Sword is Assumed)

1) 1 PowWeapon attacks equate to 2 Bolter Attacks.

2) 2 PowWeapon Attacks and 1.5 Storm Bolter are Equivalent to 1 Firefight Weapon (Flamer, HvyBolter, GravGun & Plasma).

3) When calculation treat as 15 Points if the final Unit is worth

 

Firefight Weapons (Flamer, HvyBolter, GravGun and (non-overcharge) Plasma)

1) 0.6 Wounds Per Weapon/8 Points

2) ‘best’ is 1 Firefight per 30 Points

3) Grav&Plas Cannon Damage/Effectivess lends itself here

4) 8-15” normally optimal range

5) Equates to 4 Bolters Or 2 -1 Bolter Shots, if in rapid Double

 

Heavy Weapons (OverPlasma, Lascannons, etc)

1) 1 Damage per 25 Points

2) ‘best’ is 1 Heavy per every 40 Points Spent

3) Overcharged Plasma treated as 0.5 of a Heavy (espacially for Gun)

4) No Optimal Range, Weapons are 36” range normally

 

Wound Count

1) 11 Points is the ideal per Point (Scouts used as Basis) on a model level

2) Squad level, average for non-Intercessors will come about is be about 37 Points per every 2 wounds or 18.5 Points

3) Remember wounds are Important don’t forget Weapons

 

————————

This focus will be on the 10 Man Squad, 5 Man MSU (outside Razorspam) is worse than an 5 Man Intercessor w/ PowSword. The baseline however for the 10 Man Tacticals Squad (DblPlas/PowSword/Lascannon) is 187.

 

Tactical Squad- 187

10 Wounds

9 Melee Attacks (+ 9 Pistols)

7 Bolter Attacks*

2 PowSword Attacks

2 Plasma Guns*

1 Lascannon

 

That is our baseline, we are comparing the squads to. This is the minimum you want to be, however your goal should be to surpass and be better than that

 

Two PowSword Intercessors- 190

20 Wounds

16 Melee Attacks (+ 10 Pistols)

8 -1 Bolters*

6 PowSwords Attacks

2 KrakGrenades**

 

Wound Count Intercessors excel, double the Tactical Equivalant. Their shooting is similar with at long range and short range being roughly equal. With Intercessors edging out in close range due to the Krak Grenades becoming 4 more Shots. (However when used as Krak Grenades they and the Lascannon do Equivalent damage).

 

In melee Intercessors are significantly better than Tacticals with 10 More effective melee attack. Including Pistols, 15 without including Pistols

 

TripleSpecial ChaosMarines - 185

10 Wounds

16 Melee Attacks

9 Pistol Attacks

3 PlasmaGuns*

2 PowSwords Attacks

Icon

 

DoubleHvy ChaosMarines - 189

10 Wounds

7 Bolters*

9 Melee Attacks (9 Pistol)

2 AutoCannons

1 Plasma*

2 PowSword Attacks

Icon

 

Here the ChaosMarine Special, is manys par for par with the tactical. With the tactical squad barely edging out, the Lascannons tilts the math nominally in the favor of the Tactical Marines. However the icon ability gives the squad a second puesdo tactic and death to false, giving the squad little boost. And while tactical can combat squad, the Special is able to focus and choose its preferred battle.

 

The special squad beside power weapon attacks compares better to the Intercessors than the Tacticals. Through the Intercessors once more by wound count wins out.

 

The Double Heavy is the same way. The AutoCannons making it on with the Lascannon. And having additional shots. The squad has more role variety. The Autocannons keep the price down saving 20 Points. The Plasmagun picks up the slack. The squad here also could do Chain instead of Bolter. So to ward over bully units. However by forking up for Lascannons you increase your damage by 33% (2 damage becomes 3).

 

Grey Hunters - 202

10 Wounds

16 Melee (9 Pistol)

6 Bolters*

3 Plasma*

4 PowSword

1 PlasPistols

Wolf Banner

 

At the cost of a Marine, we have beside wound count one of the most efficient per point. Espacially compared to the Tactical Squad. The Plasma basically is equivalant to the Tactical Squad payload of Bolters. With the Grey Hunter Bolters equating to to the difference. Also getting a puesdo tactic from the wolf banner.

 

The Frost Swords cancel out the Intercessor Melee PowSwords. In melee they put out couple more that’s. They are incomparable to the HvyChaos but comparable similarly favorably to ChaosSpecial. The Approved point reduced has made the difference here. Sense now the squad is only 1 Marine more expensive (the wolf banner) vs two Squads more expensive.

 

Crusader Squad (Tide) 204

14 Wound

23 Melee Attacks

13 Pistol Attacks

3 PowSword Attacks

2 PlasmaGuns*

 

Crusader Squad (6-4 Midfield)- 145

10 Wounds

15 Melee Attacks

9 Pistols Attacks

3 PowSword Attacks

2 PlasmaGuns*

 

Two Crusader Squad (MSU Backfield)- 234

10 Wound

4 PlasmaGun*

8 Melee (8 Pistol)

4 Bolters*

4 PowSword Attacks

 

The Tide Squad as except for Lascannon in the firefight category beats it in every mark. Save like the Grey Hunter it cost a Marine more. It like the Grey Hunter Squad is comparable to the Intercessors, and even similar fire output. With the Grey Hunter winning out due to Frost Swords and Plasma Pistol. However the Crusader Squad has 4 more wounds.

 

The Tide Squad even has a similar comparison to the Intercessors and Chaos Special Squad that the Grey Hunters do. The main caveat is 7 of those wounds are from 4+ Armor Saves. Like Grey Hunters as a mid field squad it excels more than any other unit.

 

Midfield 10 Man, almost 3 Marines and Double PowWeapon Cheaper than anything else. Has a similar stats to the Chaos Special, losing a Plasma and 1 attack yet gaining a PowSword. Thus all the comparisons that applied to that squad also apply to this squad.

 

The MSU Backfield Squad, is complicated while I listed Lascannon, a more far comparison (Points wise) would use Heavy Bolters. For the price of 3 Marines and a PowAx, the Crusader Squad outshines its equivalents in the troop department. It does 5-6 damage when not in Rapid Change (comparison the Tactical does 2.4 and the Chaos Marine Squad does 2 or 3 with Lascannon). Like Chaos Marines it can change Bolters to Chain to ward off Backfield.

 

Heavy Bolter Crusaders are similar to Intercessors. However for the price of a Marine have more damage output, 6 HvyBolter Shots, 4 PlasmaGuns, and 4 Bolter Shots compared to 8 -1 Bolters and 2 Krak Grenades. The Plasma canceling the Bolters, Krak Grenades removing 3 Bolter Shots leaving 4 Bolters and 3 -1 Bolters. In melee depending on Crusader Setup Intercessors put out 2-6 more Bolter Attacks. (After accounting

for the difference in number of PowWeapons).

 

End of the day.

 

Tactical Equivalent Teir List

Mediocre

Tactical Squads and Chaos Marines: Each of these are functionally equivalent. Chaos Marines having a slight edge due to their able to avoid ‘Bolter’ Tax and freely choose their preferred method of engagement. And having functionally 2 tactics to Tactical’s 1 Tactic.

 

Acceptable, ‘base’ standard

Intercessors

These squads are beside Heavy Weapons able to bring to bear the Equivalent firepower and double wound count. They lack transport options, but have the flexibility of the ‘best’ tactical equivalents. Able to switch and perform any battlefield Role. Beside back field tank hunting, a role they cannot perform in any functional capacity.

 

The Best

Grey Hunter and Crusader Squad: These two Squads are far above the best of these squads. Their setups are comparable to Heavy and Elite choices. Per Point Spent. The Grey Hunter is the mid field with, lacking only in wounds but the largest concentration of Special attacks of all these squads. The flexibility of Chain/Bolter is unrivaled.

 

While it has unparalleled battlefield flexibility, it lacks any list building flexibility. Where the Crusader Squad, excels. While the Crusader Squad has three base variants, with the MSU and Tide comparable to Devi and Vangaurd by damage output. The 10 Man is comparable to other Tactical Equivalents save Grey Hunter But 3 Marines and 2 PowWeapons Cheap.

 

—————

5 Man Non-Intercessor Or Crusader Squads not discussed because in every case they will be functionally the same. Only tangible difference is that Crusader Squad and Grey Hunters advantages become slightly less salient (and the Crusader 5 Man MSU Double Sword will also be listed and discussed). The Grey Hunters also being 6 Man. Otherwise the same principle applies, main difference would be Chain or Bolter or both.

 

The basic 5 Man Double Special (90-110 Points)

5 Wounds

-GreyHunters have 6

2 Plasma*

-GreyHunter have a PlasPistol too

2 PowSwords Attack

-Crusaders have 3 PowSword Attacks or 2 PowSword Attack + Heavy Bolter

-Grey Hunters have 4 FrostSword Attack

Choose 1 (Unless Hunters Or Crusaders)

3 Bolters*, 4 Pistols and 4 Melee

Or

4 Pistols, 7 Melee

-Crusaders have 4 Pistols and 6 Melee

-Hunters have 2 Bolters*, 4 Pistols, and 6 Melee

Hunters and Chaos Marines have two effective chapter tactics

 

Scout Marines (naked) - 139

10 Wounds

2 PowSword Attack

1 Plasgun*

1 Heavy Bolter

17 Melee

9 Pistol

 

Scout Marines lack the durability of Marines and overall threat level with only HvyBolter and single special. Attack level they are in Triple Special Chaos Marine and 6-4 Crusader Squad. But are 25% less durable than them. (Being almost 25% Cheaper matches that). Instead they can forward deploy and be equipped with shotguns or Bolters.

 

Snipers rifles & Cloaks add 55 Points to the squad placing it at about Tactical Squad. 9 Sniper Shots, 3 Heavy Bolters and 2+ Saves in cover. Then 2 PowWeapon Weapons. The 9 Sniper rifles result in 2 damage, one Mortal, one unsaved. And two Weapons. Making them just a bit worse than Tacticals on defense but can forward deploy

 

————

For those who wish to add on the Tactical/Chaos Marine/Grey Hunter setups (or discussed the alternate load outs for Intercessors) I have less personal experience with those.

 

*Double in Rapid

**Use BoltRifle instead when in Rapid

Edited December 27, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[micahwc]

Are you including Death to the False Emperor for your chaos results? It only works against Imperium units, but that's a factor most of the time.

[Schlitzaf]

I noted it in the Chaos Marine sections. It’s a powerful ability but it doesn’t outweigh the value represented in Crusader and Grey Hunters. (For those bemused by the expensive of GreyHunter/Crusaders over the others drop a Neophyte and Wolf Banner. Make them 192 and 193. The actual math doesn’t change significantly)

[Tamiel]

The only loadout I've been running recently is the 5man tac squads with a lascannon.

I've found that whenever tac squads get within rapid fire range, they die (and if you're arming them with plasmaguns, you really want them to be in rapid fire range). With the amount of multi-damage weapons in the game now, I'm not too impressed with Intercessors either.

These days no infantry can survive in the midfield unless it is behind Line of Sight blocking terrain. 

But going back on topic, I think it's worth mentioning that Ultramarine tacticals get a full-reroll in one phase for 1 CP (which has a 33% chance of being refunded if you are using the UM warlord trait).

This means that if you have a 10man or 5man tac squad that is outside the range of a captain or chaptermaster, they still get full to-hit rerolls for 0.66 Command points. I'm not going to delve deep into the math here, you guys are probably better at that than I am, but it seems like something that might give the UM tac squads a slight edge. The same strategem applies to UM intercessors.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Tamiel

[Schlitzaf]

Even with full rerolls, it’s doubtful that the Tacticals of Ultramarines would come up equivalent for the Crusader/Grey Hunter Squad. It’s adding effectively 3 Bolter Shots to the squads and 1 Plasma Shot. Which without going into the math of it would makes it shooting on par with Grey Hunter Squad and notably better with the Crusader Squad. (If the Crusader Squad loses a Neophyte to balance out points it gains +6 Bolter Shots and +1 Plasma)

 

But the Crusader Squad has an additional PowSword attack and 6 more Melee Attacks. The Lascannon once again stands out as important and salient difference, which you could debate is better, but in the midfield firefight where Tacticals want to be, the Crusader (and Grey Hunter) would still excel over strategem powered Tacticals.

 

Intercessors also gain 1.66/3 or 3.16/6.33 additional shots (depends if one Squad or two, as well as rapid range). In the case of the 10 man the squad is put closer in range. The PowWeapons cancel in each case vs Grey Hunter and Crusader (Hunters having a slight edge due to FrostSword). With 18 normal attack and effective 26.33 -1 Bolters in Rapid. (Hit 13.66 times and reroll 6.33 gives a collective total of 26.33).

 

The 2 -1 Bolters is equivalent to 1 Plasma or 3 Regular Bolter (both end at Aprox 0.35% chance to kill an MeQ).

 

Crusaders Regular Pistols and attack equate to 7 -1 Bolters, the two Plasma come to 8 Meaning the effective addition shots come 22 vs 26 so 4 -1 Bolters or 1.33 dead Marines. Grey Hunters comes 24 vs 26 -1 Bolters or 0.66 Dead Marines. However if the Hunters and Crusaders overcharge, they break the diffference causing them to perform better than the Intercessors once more.

 

It’s a close similarity, BA Intercessors are similar to that with red thirst. Able to similarity close the gap but not completely

[Tamiel]

At rapid fire range, the stratagem applies to even more shots so it gives you more than just 3 bolter shots and an extra plasma shot. It's closer to 5 bolter shots and ~1.5 extra plasmagun shots (almost), on top of the 0.33 extra lascannon shot (or more if you're using grav cannons or heavy bolters). That's a lot of free shots. The more things a re-roll buff applies to, the more value it gives you. At rapid fire range, that reroll stratagem really goes into overdrive.
 

Add to this what safer rerolling of overcharged plasma provides you. (Which is pretty big. Your chances of killing yourself go from 1/6 per model to 1/36 per model. The odds are slightly more risky in rapid fire range. But in the end you're getting +1 S and 2Dmg per plasma shot, and your chances of killing yourself are substantially lower than the other squads.)

 

In my opinion, you can't just put aside the lascannon as "Well it's not midrange so it doesn't fit tacticals playstlye". There's nothing that says you can't put your tacticals in the midfield and have the lascannon snipe a vehicle that's in the enemy backfield. We can split our shots however we want now, so that reroll on the lascannon is huge. And there are always other heavy weapons like the multi-melta or the grav-cannon that benefit from being in midrange. Anything you choose gets rerolls too! Not just the plasmaguns.

It's true that UM tacs lose out in melee when compared to these other guys, but remember that UM are also the only ones who can fall back and shoot. This is pretty big because it means that those special weapons and heavy weapon you paid for are always shooting, every single turn, no matter what. Other squads may lose out on a turn of shooting in comparison. Think about how much of a damage per round decrease that is... you don't get to shoot any of those precious special weapons or heavy weapon for a turn, maybe even more if you're stuck in melee for long. With UM, your points that you put into the special weapons always get to be used.

 

That's a lot of shooting benefits.

 

In summary, with much safer overcharging, as many special weapon shots as the other guys, way more bolter shots, a rerollable heavy weapon, and the ability to fall back and shoot, I'd say the UM come out as clear winners in the shooting department.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Tamiel

[Schlitzaf]

Tamiel I calculated it’s as 3 Bolter Shots or 6 Bolters in Rapid that (the Plasma being additional 1 Shot is an example of that because 4 > 2.66 > rerolls > 0.89 or 1 additional plasma Shot. The Lascannon adds 1 > 0.5 > (rerolls) > 0.66. Not irrevelant but enough to cancel the advantage of Crusaders and Grey Hunters). I focused more on the Intercessors because it more relavent. Just so you know. Also if we start making the Lascannon comparison, it be better to compare to the 2 Man MSU Crusaders, the other aspect I didn’t discuss was IF Bolter Drill, Salamander CT and Ravengaurd CT.

 

All three highly relavent to making those tactical squads not subpar. The armies that benefit the least from using Tacticals are Iron Hand, and White Scars. The balancing factor for Crusaders/Grey Hunters comes from the surperior chapter tactics and strategem the other armies have access too.

 

BT Tactic is the worse, precisely because we have access to the best Tactical Squad (or second best depending vs Grey Hunter) Variant in the game. Both are armies reliant upon fielding Horde-Esque midfield squads, to best bring to bear their armies strength and weaknesses.

 

BT via our strategem, leveraging our Relic, Special Characters and Cenobyte Servitors. We want several squads in the midfield either Rhino Mounted or Tide Squads. Wolves, want squads or outflank using their strategem and make good use of the Bolter strategem. Grey Hunters preform the best in that regard.

 

However the flipside, is both armies lack key aspects and tactics units with ‘mediocre’ Tacticals have. Combat Tactics for better threat response, the rerolls from the Black Legion and Ultramarine Strategem, the -1 to hit from Raven and Alpha. The reliability granted by Salamander Tactics, the threat range granted by Renagades, and the best firefight tactic utilized by Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists.

 

Finally the two newest codexes, Blood and Dark Angels have stellar tactics, the easier to wound and reroll one if no moving. But both have to use subpar troop choices for their CP access, or have to deal with no transports or 4+ saves.

 

Ultra/Black Stratagem, the Salamander, Raven/Alpha and the Angels tactic provided the most salient balancing factor in this comparison and make up the difference. The degree of how much better they are illustrates just how much worse Tactical/Chaos Marines are in comparison to Crusader/GreyHunters. Is also why Intercessors suddenly become nearly as good if not better than Crusader/GreyHunter once we start including certain tactics.

 

Long story short. What you are seeing here, is exactly what strategems and tactics should be doing. While Crusader/GreyHunter for less ‘investment’ come out on top. The Salamander player for example wants to include weapons and abilities to be best leverage his advantage with single shot multi-damage. The Raven/Alpha will instead favor long range weaponry. Or close range using their tactic as puesdo cover. The IF/IW will instead favor multi-shot anti-medium armor/infantry like heavy Bolters to dislodge enemy positions. Those weapons being an effective -2 AP vs units in cover.

 

Crusader/GreyHunter require the least dedicated builds to leverage that advantage. Each instead fills a critical niche. Crusader Squads are basically a Codex in one Squad. Representing three roles, midfield (6-4), backfield (5 Man MSU, Special/Special/Heavy) and a frontline tide squad. Being equivalent to a Tactical, Devestator and an Vangaurd Squad.

 

Grey Hunters instead have to leverage the army being a firefight with few dedicated long range platforms (Long Fangs being the exception). Thus have to excel as midfield firefight, because they lack other tools. Where Crusaders as I noted, have the most flexibility in the list building stage (and by extension the least flexible on the table top), Grey Hunters excell in their midfield capacity. However they pay for it in having the worst durability of any tactical Squad (20 Points per a wound).

 

I tangented. The reason I excluded the Lascannon, not because it’s irrevalent but precisely because it’s relevant. The Tacticals at a core are defined by on battlefield flexibility espacially compared to their Tactical Equivalent Brothers. A tactical squad in general wants to get in midfield 8-15 inch mark. Which requires moving, and that leads to a -1 on the Lascannon. And thus in that firefight role, the Lascannon while not bad, representing a good flexibility in roles and threat package. Doesn’t actively help in that scenario and is a mark against the tactical squad in comparison to units like Crusader/Grey Hunters.

 

What does matter, when you replace that Lascannon with a Heavy Bolter. Where effectively using that stratagem gives you another half of Heavy Bolter, the equivalent to 3 Bolter Shots (in Rapid so 6 Total) (3 > 1.5 > rerolls > 2 > 1.33 > 0.66). The Heavy Bolter also because a Marine Cheaper (and thus 20-30 point swing vs Crusaders/Grey Hunter) would in the firefight role arguably make them more equivalent. While the Hunter/Crusaders require less baby sitting for 3 equivalent squads you could take a Liutanent or another Marine support character.

 

That also enables hellfire rounds, which is another point in that squad favor. The actual comparisons are more complicated, and nuanced then what I show here. And I am not trying to show that Tacticals are bad. What I am showing is they are ‘innately’ bad compared to Crusaders and Grey Hunters. But this isn’t 4th Ed anymore, Tacticals are no longer just Tacticals anymore. Strategem and Chapter Tactics are very much part of the actual dynamic.

 

But what is important with this analysis is the demonstration of what Tacticals are. Showcased/highlight better by the math in the first set of posts, reliable midfield firefighters, that are worth their points. However there is only so much ‘buffing’ a squad can receive and knowing what your working with is an important aspect.

 

The chapter tactics and strategem make these squads good, but when your unable to leverage them for whatever reason. Out of points or you want to save them for example. That where this math comes up as mattering. The short and sweet version; the math looks at how much babysitting the squad would need vs it’s competition.

 

——

Edit and I was bored

Edited December 30, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Brother Talarian]

Brother Schiztlaf,

 

How would you run a 7-7 crusader squad to make it as effective as a Sword Brother squad? What are the SB equipped with to make them even?

 

I've attempted to look at you math a few times but my head couldn't wrap around the numbers.

 

I assume they're "equivalent" on a point by point bases... but would that include weapons such as TH and LCs?

 

I love the idea of 7-7 tide running up the board, didn't realize the math proved them to be as good as SB. How would you run your 7-7? How do they deal with monsters and armor?

 

Vielen dank,

Talarian

[Schlitzaf]

Without power weapons the units puts out the same raw strength 4 AP - Attack as Vangaurd do. Sense we put out 6 attacks for 24 Points (13 Point Initaite + 11 Point Neophyte) or 1 attack per 4 Points spent.

 

A Vangaurd Veteran puts 4 Attacks for 16 Point (Or 18 Points with Jetpack), 2 Base + Double Chainsword or Chainsword + Pistol, if without jump pack, Vangaurd spend 4 Points per an attack. Once Vangaurd start getting PowWeapons the math starts to shift in Vangaurd’s favor.

 

In which case the 0.2 in the favor of the Vangaurd. 20 Points vs 24 Points. Or 22 vs 24 Points if the Vangaurd has Jump Pack. The Crusader raw naked points is equivalent to a raw naked Vangaurd if both units only have chainsword and bolt pistol.

 

But currently? I’m flamer, and Combi flamer combo. And Double PowSword. So I can advance every turn and still shoot. I might do some shotgun Neo’s in the future too.

[arigatous]

We already started this discussion in another thread earlier but seems like it would be convenient to move it here.

 

According to Mathhammer 2 attacks with chainsword (free) is better or equal to power sword (4 points) on a single attack model as long as enemy AS is 4+ or worse, and that's not including the cost. At a cost-per-point basis it's worse even vs MeQ.

 

So it seems is no single reason to use power weapon on an Initiate - 2 attacks with CS are always better statistically than 1 attack with PW unless enemy has AS 2+. Of course SB is another story since he has 2 attacks.

Edited February 6, 2018 by arigatous

[Schlitzaf]

Actually that is incorrect. A PowSword vs MeQ is give or take 0.275 Wounds vs MeQ. 2 Chainswords Attack are 0.22 wounds vs MeQ. (Your effectively paying 4 Points to increase damage by 25%.). Yes I know it costs more than 3.25 Points. (curious on rerolls, 1 > 0.77 > 0.385 > 0.321 (or 0.35 with Castallen)). A Chainsword Bro, 2 > 1.55 > 0.78 > .251 (or 0.3). Basically it’s 4 Points for about 25% increase. And if we include SB.

 

5 > 3.32 > 1.16 > 0.38

3 > 2 > 1 > 0.84

 

If there is 2 PowSword and 2 Chain the outcome is 0.77 MeQ Wounds. A 7 Point difference (interestingly sense average wound count is 0.22 wounds, paying just under 1/3 of a Marine increases your raw damage by a third of a Marine). It’s really interesting but yes that 3rd PowSword attacks does appreciably increase your damage output for whatever reason

 

A Marine does 0.22 wounds normally. Your effectively spending 8 Points to get the same damage output of 4 Marines for price of 3. It’s weird but the 1 Attack PowSword by itself is marginal. But the fact it turns, 2 PowSword attacks into 3 PowSword attacks notably increases its damage output when compared to have not having it. The additional PowSword attack matters is that those extra 4 Points makes the PowSword far more reliable. 3 Attacks = 2 = 1 (0.84 Wounds) which somehow results in an appreciably large increase over not having it all. Even if the one difference is 25%, those 4 Points end equating to an increase of 33% for that model effective damage output

 

————

Basic 4 or 17 Points for 1 attack meh vs 13 Points for 2 , but 8 or 34 Points for 3 Attacks is awesome vs 26 (or 39) Points for 5 (or 7). For whatever reason the math works out that way

Edited February 6, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[arigatous]

That's pretty much what I've written before. Vs MeQ power sword is somewhat better if you don't consider external points (which roughly make it equal). But we don't always fight MeQ. More than that, one would usually prefer to find easier targets for crusader squad than AS 3+ units. Vs AS4+ (say, necrons or elite aeldari) these weapons are equal and chainsword costs zero. Vs AS 5+ (say guards) chainswords will work better. VS AS 6+ (say, orks) chainswords are even better. VS Daemons chainswords are two times better. And again, we don't count that 4 points here, it's just raw power.

 

Besides marines, units with 3+ saves or better are usually specialized CC units which basically dream of charging something like Crusader Squad and wiping it out in a turn or two 

 

So PS may be worth it if you're fighting marines (even then power axe would probably be somewhat better if your army doesn't include Helbrecht). But speaking of fighting everyone else...

Edited February 6, 2018 by arigatous

[Schlitzaf]

I mean the rest of the Crusader Squad should be able to handle 4+/5+. But for comparison sake

 

(Completeness sake) Vs MeQ

(baseline Marine) 2 > 1.32 > 0.66 > 0.22

5 > 3.32 > 1.16 > 0.38

3 > 2 > 1 > 0.84

 

8 Points is effectively worth 3 Marines more than 0 Points. And when compared to 4 Points is worth a 1/3 of a Marine.

 

 

Vs Necron Warriors

(baseline Marine) 2 > 1.32 > 0.66 > 0.33.

5 > 3.32 > 1.65 > 0.83

3 > 2 > 1.

Spending 8 Points for an 50% damage increase over not having it at all. Through 4 Points is the same as 8 Points

 

Vs Gaurdsman

(baseline Marine) 2 > 1.32 > 0.88 > 0.54

5 > 3.32 > 2.2 > 1.4

3 > 2 > 1.32

 

In this scenario 8 Points is a damage Reduction. And 4 Points is parity with no points

 

Vs Orks

(Baseline Marines) 2 > 1.32 > 0.66 > 0.55

5 > 3.32 > 1.16 > 0.98

3 > 2 > 1

 

In this scenario 8 Points is parity with 0 Points, and 4 Points is better than both by 0.2

 

Vs SoB

(Baseline Marines) 2 > 1.32 > 0.88 > 0.59

5 > 3.32 > 2.2 > 0.7

3 > 2 > 1.32 > 1.1

 

Our 8 Points is worth 2/3 of a Marine, vs 0 Points. But 4 Points is worth a full Marine in this scenerio.

 

Vs Terminators

(baseline Marines) 2 > 1.32 > 0.66 > 0.11

5 > 3.32 > 1.16 > 0.18

3 > 2 > 1 > 0.66

 

Here 8 Points is 4 Marines, and utterly smashes 0 Points. And is worth or equivalent to a Marine damage over 4 Points

 

The take away is that our regular Initaites already deal with Non-T4 Power Armored fine. The extra two attacks over not having a PowWeapon is wasteful. We need weapons to deal with T4 Sv3+, in combat. To swing it quickly in our favor and avoid getting bogged down in a noodle fight

 

And I’ve this elsewhere, I’ll gladly take on elite melee units with my Crusader Squads. Point for Point a Crusader Squad is as good Vangaurd Veterans, and other elite units

Edited February 6, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[arigatous]

I'm not really sure why you compare 5 CS vs 3 PS. I'm stating that 2 PS (from SB) + 2 CS (from Initiate) vs 3 PS are almost always better. Since 2 PS are always there, the whole difference is between 1 PS and 2 CS. Since to hit and to wound chances are the same, only AS/IS matters.

 

vs IS 5+ => 2*2/3=4/3 (free) vs 1*2/3=2/3. CS is two times better.

vs AS 6+ => 2*5/6=5/3 (free) vs 1 (+4 points). CS is much better.

vs AS 5+ =>2*2/3=4/3 (free) vs 1 (+4 points). CS is considerably better.

vs AS 4+ => 2*1/2=1 (free) vs 1 (+4 points). CS is better because it's free. Pointwise it would be 17/13 CS vs 1 PS.

vs AS 3+ => 2*1/3=2/3 (free) vs 5/6 (+4 points). CS is still slightly better pointwise. It would be 2/3*17/13=0.87 CS vs 5/6=0.83 PS.

vs AS 2+ => Seriously? Are we attacking TeQ with Crusaders? The whole tide squad would be lucky to kill just one. And yes, TeQ tend to have 3+IS here and there, which would make CS better again (same maths as for AS 4+).

 

So my argument is whenever you change CS Initiate for PS Initiate, this exact PS Initiate will be less effective than CS Initiate vs pretty much any unit he's fighting with. That's a fact which is completely independent from SB weapons, because SB can have exactly the same weapons in both cases.

Edited February 6, 2018 by arigatous

[Schlitzaf]

Because you cannot ignore the SB. Despite being the same in both instances for whatever reason, PowSword Init + SB IS better than ChainInit+PowSB. Your spending 34 Points for 0.84 wounds vs 30 Points for 0.77. And a 13 Point Init does 0.22 Wounds. Adding the 4 Points for PowSwords increase the raw wound count by 0.07 from 0.77 to 0.84 or 1/3 of a Chain Init or 4.33 Points. Like yes if you compare purely PowSword to Chain Init, Chain Wins. If you compare PowSword armed Init + SB, vs Chain Armed Init and PowSword Armed SB. The Double PowSword smashes.

 

I don’t know why, but it is. For whatever reason

Edited February 6, 2018 by Schlitzaf