Post Dark Imperium books

[Ishagu]

Lol stop it.

[TheRealMcCagh]

In all seriousness, it makes it sound like a power greater than 2 Primarchs, which is a pretty short list. And it makes Guilliman question in place in the galaxy. The Emperor is the only thing that springs to mind, but I have no idea how that would/could be done

[Mellow]

“The Chaos Gods did it”

 

Guilliman probably gets infected with something from Nurgle which causes him to hallucinate which in turn makes him question things he used to be sure about.

[Ishagu]

Stuff like that has already happened. I think a new player might enter the stage.

 

A star god? Some ancient alien? Interesting either way

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

I think the inter-generational friction between SM 1.0 and SM 2.0 should be a great source of tension.

 

Yeah...they're not that different, but the older generation views the newer generation as outsiders and possibly usurpers.

 

 

And we've had that story several times. Playing up the otherness of Primaris marines isn't a solid foundation to build on. There should be no more daylight between the two a hundred years later. 

 

 

I sincerely doubt that is enough time for every old marine be completely okay with the fact that they have been made obsolete.

 

For that matter, I am not okay with every old marine being made obsolete. I find it immensely unsatisfying, as far as narratives go.

 

Pah. I thought that GW's handling of moving the narrative forwards was poor at best, so I'm going to shut up, before I devolve into a little angry ball of rants.

 

 

I understand in your mind you're thinking 'marines live a lot longer than a hundred years' and thats not the case. They die a lot. They live longer than normal people, but attrition is still exceptionally high. Given the fact the Imperium post-Gathering Storm is experiencing the highest commitment of forces to armed conflicts since the Horus Heresy (thats not me, thats the new rule book) the attrition rate will be well beyond anything experienced pre-Cadia, which means marines will live for an even shorter average time. By the new 999.M41, or whenever the approximate hundred years since the Fall of Cadia is - there will be almost no living oldmarines unless a chapter is incapable of making Primaris Marines, which doesnt seem to be the case since the lore states EVERY chapter got some somehow. 

[Taliesin]

Stuff like that has already happened. I think a new player might enter the stage.

 

A star god? Some ancient alien? Interesting either way

 

When I first read that line about the intervention of a greater power I was obviously very intrigued.

 

And still am. What could possibly be referred to here? The Emperor comes to mind, but outside of that? 

[Robbienw]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the inter-generational friction between SM 1.0 and SM 2.0 should be a great source of tension.

 

Yeah...they're not that different, but the older generation views the newer generation as outsiders and possibly usurpers.

 

And we've had that story several times. Playing up the otherness of Primaris marines isn't a solid foundation to build on. There should be no more daylight between the two a hundred years later.

I sincerely doubt that is enough time for every old marine be completely okay with the fact that they have been made obsolete.

 

For that matter, I am not okay with every old marine being made obsolete. I find it immensely unsatisfying, as far as narratives go.

 

Pah. I thought that GW's handling of moving the narrative forwards was poor at best, so I'm going to shut up, before I devolve into a little angry ball of rants.

I understand in your mind you're thinking 'marines live a lot longer than a hundred years' and thats not the case. They die a lot. They live longer than normal people, but attrition is still exceptionally high. Given the fact the Imperium post-Gathering Storm is experiencing the highest commitment of forces to armed conflicts since the Horus Heresy (thats not me, thats the new rule book) the attrition rate will be well beyond anything experienced pre-Cadia, which means marines will live for an even shorter average time. By the new 999.M41, or whenever the approximate hundred years since the Fall of Cadia is - there will be almost no living oldmarines unless a chapter is incapable of making Primaris Marines, which doesnt seem to be the case since the lore states EVERY chapter got some somehow.

Classic Marines aren't actually obsolete or being fully replaced by Primaris though, lets not forget. They are still being made up to the current point in the fluff (115 or so years after the fall of cadia).

 

The presumption that Primaris Marines are a direct replacement is erroneous. GW themselves have said they are additional reinforcements, not replacements.

 

It could change in the future of course if GW wills it, but for now that's the way it is.

[b1soul]

I think Primaris are intended to be a gradual replacement...it's just there are 1,000 chapters, some of which are resistant, e.g. Flesh Tearers, Dark Angels, etc.

[Marshal Rohr]

Once Emperor's Spears comes out we will have a finite answer. 

[Sandlemad]

Once Emperor's Spears comes out we will have a finite answer. 

 

Eh, more likely we'll have an answer for the Emperor's Spears and maybe a handful of other chapters in the region the book's focusing on. I'd imagine this is an area where authors and editors are trying to tread carefully, with an eye to not running into contradictory studio/other BL background on the presence of primaris or classic marines.

[Marshal Rohr]

They will have to commit to something soon. Can you imagine five years from now STILL reading about oldmarines being wary of the Primaris

[Ishagu]

The fact that the older marines are wary is the exact kind of thinking Guilliman wants to change, but I think this will get truly interesting if the Lion opposes the changes once he returns.

 

Would the Nids or Orks still be the same kind of threat if humanity had access to more advanced technology and more potent weapons. The stagnation is the opposite of the Emperor's vision.

 

I'm still really puzzled about this Greater Power. It's exciting because it could have an impact on the current setting in particular.

[Mellow]

I’ve always presumed that the Astartes in the days of the Heresy were “better” than the ones in 40k due to genetic degradation. But is it stated that these Primaris are better than the 30k ones or just a “factory reset” of the original gene seed?

 

Maybe I should just accept Cawl is our new overlord.

[rookie40K]

They will have to commit to something soon. Can you imagine five years from now STILL reading about oldmarines being wary of the Primaris

I imagine it will be Primaris Marines being wary of Thundaris marines or something like that by then.

[Robbienw]

I’ve always presumed that the Astartes in the days of the Heresy were “better” than the ones in 40k due to genetic degradation. But is it stated that these Primaris are better than the 30k ones or just a “factory reset” of the original gene seed?

 

Maybe I should just accept Cawl is our new overlord.

They have new organs and new geneseed, they aren't just refreshed Marines.

 

There is really no evidence to suggest that 30k Marines were any better than the 40k ones. From all the 30k fluff they seem to be the same in capability. A few special cases excepted of course like the original Angels of Death prototype batch of dark angels who had emperor given psychic protection, and a few possible special cases like Autek Mor and Abaddon.

[RandomMarine]

Well in autek mor's case it's specifically stated that he different to other Astartes and it's reflected by T5 in rules. I always just assumed he was from the first batch of Astartes in Xth made by big e himself sort of like a master crafted Astartes similar to astelan

[Robbienw]

Quite probably as he was a Terran who was part of the first intake for the 10th legion. It seems the emperor and his genewrights liked to do some experimental stuff on the first intakes of the legions

[Ishagu]

I don't think the 40k Astartes were lesser to the 30k ones, beyond the Imperial Fists missing an organ or more chances of things going wrong.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

I’ve always presumed that the Astartes in the days of the Heresy were “better” than the ones in 40k due to genetic degradation. But is it stated that these Primaris are better than the 30k ones or just a “factory reset” of the original gene seed?

 

Maybe I should just accept Cawl is our new overlord.

They have new organs and new geneseed, they aren't just refreshed Marines.

 

There is really no evidence to suggest that 30k Marines were any better than the 40k ones. From all the 30k fluff they seem to be the same in capability. A few special cases excepted of course like the original Angels of Death prototype batch of dark angels who had emperor given psychic protection, and a few possible special cases like Autek Mor and Abaddon.

The 30k marines are just made faster and use fresh geneseed. The 40k marines used recycled gene seed as there is no way to make more on the scale they could in 30k.

[MrDarth151]

 

I understand in your mind you're thinking 'marines live a lot longer than a hundred years' and thats not the case. They die a lot. They live longer than normal people, but attrition is still exceptionally high. Given the fact the Imperium post-Gathering Storm is experiencing the highest commitment of forces to armed conflicts since the Horus Heresy (thats not me, thats the new rule book) the attrition rate will be well beyond anything experienced pre-Cadia, which means marines will live for an even shorter average time. By the new 999.M41, or whenever the approximate hundred years since the Fall of Cadia is - there will be almost no living oldmarines unless a chapter is incapable of making Primaris Marines, which doesnt seem to be the case since the lore states EVERY chapter got some somehow. 

 

 

I'm actually thinking that every single character I care about is one of the old ones, and that I am highly uninterested in them being rendered obsolete by the newcomers.

 

"But it won't happen, Darth, GW said that every chapter is still producing old Marines!"

 

And Black Library portrays them as objectively better replacements, so what we have here is another rendition of studio and BL not talking to each other, and the nonsensical situation where the studio doesn't want to render entire collections obsolete, so they introduce fluff that makes no sense, and by which BL very clearly doesn't want to abide, if what Guy Haley writes is any indication, and it's all there because we needed to make Chaos the biggest threat in the entire galaxy, in a staggering example of overcompensation, where GW wants to make Abaddon a credible threat, so of course they give him a win so massive that it can only be countered by deus ex machina that should realistically by of little consequence by all the standards of warfare as we know it, once again proving that Grimdark trumps writing in a way that makes sense.

 

Pah. The fact that I defended the concept of them when they first arrived fills me with shame, because I should have bloody known better.

 

Let me put it this way: If we go with the route of portraying Primaris in the same way as we portray regular Marines, they become inherently wasted as a concept, because there is not actual point to them. There are only narrative downsides, and you might have just as well, not introduce them at all, and just give old marines new armour and weapons to sell new models, it would amount to basically the same.

 

 

Classic Marines aren't actually obsolete or being fully replaced by Primaris though, lets not forget. They are still being made up to the current point in the fluff (115 or so years after the fall of cadia).

 

The presumption that Primaris Marines are a direct replacement is erroneous. GW themselves have said they are additional reinforcements, not replacements.

 

It could change in the future of course if GW wills it, but for now that's the way it is.

 

 

And this is part of the reason I say it leads to nonsensical situations.

 

Hey, here is the end of Devastation of Baal, and Primaris Blood Angels. They are faster, stronger, have additional organs that help them fight and Corbulo just told us that in the last seventy bloody years of deployment they have no suffered from either Thirst nor Rage, a problem we have desperately tried to resolve for the last ten thousand of years, but of course, we cannot have a Blood Angel book dedicated to that, nope, it was solved off-screen Cawl, because that's narratively satisfying resolution to that plot point, let me tell you that for a fact, and then we follow it up with "But we are still producing regular Astartes that suffer from two devastating curses that the newcomers don't, because reasons!".

 

Never :cussing mind that said curses are a massive part of Blood Angels as a force, and their main distinguishing feature.

 

I am still pissed off about that ending and I like Guy Haley as an author.

 

And don't even get me started on the usage of Guilliman.

[mc warhammer]

have to say, while i’m not passionate about primaris one way or the other...i agree that introducing them and having them blend in to no dramatic effect does leave me wondering why bother (same as my issues with alpharius/omegon).

 

and that’s not to say that effect needs to take the form of granpa marine griping about these new millenial marines. there’s several possibilities that could occur, and probably play out differently from chapter to chapter

 

at this stage, i’m giving BL the benefit of the doubt on this development and hoping that some sort of narrative contribution will be made by the primaris that absolutely demands their place in the story. one that couldn’t be told with the old skool fellas

[Mellow]

I’m hoping we get a Cawl novel or series of novels that try to tie up various plot points to explain(ish) how he managed to just make everything better and also what he did with the pylons and perhaps his encounter with Trayzn

[Amun Ra]

It’s kind of sad the plot of most of those marine books has been ‘Primaris vs OldMarines’. They’ve gotta stop treating Primaris like anything but regular old space marines or it’s going to trope itself.

It would have made a lot more sense if they had not jumped 2? Hundred years forward.

[Ishagu]

A hundred years in the Imperium is the same as a second.

There are probably entire warzones that still haven't even seen the intervention of Primaris, and probably Chapter planets that Guilliman might not have reached or even be aware of.

[rookie40K]

In time, with the right authors, things can be fleshed out better. Thunder Warriors were replaced with space marines, the emperor already gave Corax the green light to create a better marine in the past, so it’s been done before, and we don’t know what the emperor said to Guilliman before his throat was cut or after his return. In the right hands, and over time the Primaris thing can be smoothed out much better. But I get some of the frustration, it’s been a slower process than I would have thought. I recall ADB saying somewhere that he knew Primaris were coming a year before they dropped.Black Library seems to have been operating a bit slower over the last couple of years. I personally get excited about the storyline moving forward and really like the idea of upgraded marines.