Primarch Book 8 - Jaghatai Khan: Warhawk of Chogoris

[Brother Lunkhead]

Hmm, is it just me or are there some serious similarities between the Khan, Angron, and Mortarion? Each seem to crave freedom and independence which they are denied by the Emperor...

 

I don't think any of them were at all enamored of the Emperor like some of their siblings. The Khan and Angron definitely recognized the hypocrisy that riddled the Emperor's dream and empire. Mortarion probably did too, but I don't think this was ever mentioned in the literature. Agron hated him for it (not unjustified) but the Khan did not. Mortarion, I think had other motivations.

[Fedor]

I seem to remember that in Scars the Khan goads  Mortarion by saying he yearns to be the dominator/tyrant figure himself, to which Mort responds that he deserves it. Wraight's HH work on him seems to  have emphasised a hypocritical/unsure side to Mortarions outlook. Some of which was probably needed after McNeil had him suddenly being totally fine with soercerous rituals and other chaos warpy stuff in Vengeful Spirit.

[Orwell84]

I seem to remember that in Scars the Khan goads  Mortarion by saying he yearns to be the dominator/tyrant figure himself, to which Mort responds that he deserves it. Wraight's HH work on him seems to  have emphasised a hypocritical/unsure side to Mortarions outlook. Some of which was probably needed after McNeil had him suddenly being totally fine with soercerous rituals and other chaos warpy stuff in Vengeful Spirit.

 

I noticed that little discrepancy too. Even more odd was that McNeill had him as the spokesman of the anti-psyker faction at Nikea. It adds a nice dimension to Mortation's character, though - outwardly the most stalwart of primarchs, the rock upon which enemies break, but inwardly riddled with doubts and mental weakness.

[karden00]

I had to hold back a bit of barf at the mention of Conn Iggulden on this hallowed board.

 

I never had much of a problem with Morty being suddenly OK with sorcery in VS. Now I, unlike a lot of brothers, enjoyed what VS offered, and I just took it to mean that there was a big chunk of time and a big event or two occurring between VS and the last treatment of Mortarion.

[Marshal Loss]

Daemonology (also by Chris Wraight) helps justify his hypocrisy.

[Sandlemad]

Mortarion is on a journey and has a lot of self-hatred to work out on the way. It’s worth remembering that besides Magnus and maybe Lorgar he knew the most about esotericism and warp-stuff from his studies under his Barbaran xenos ‘father’. He turned on it but bits, like the numerology, stuck with him.

 

Daemonology and/or Path of Heaven probably should have been published before Vengeful Spirit but digging up his old sorcery textbooks out of despair and desperation is one of the better changes to his character. Fits with his whole arc and works for the morose 40k Mortarion, the least jolly follower of Nurgle.

[bluntblade]

Daemonology and Path of Heaven did a lot of fixing in that regard.

[Orwell84]

I had to hold back a bit of barf at the mention of Conn Iggulden on this hallowed board.

 

I never had much of a problem with Morty being suddenly OK with sorcery in VS. Now I, unlike a lot of brothers, enjoyed what VS offered, and I just took it to mean that there was a big chunk of time and a big event or two occurring between VS and the last treatment of Mortarion.

 

I figured something had happened in the two years between Isstvan and Molech, just that in real-world terms there hadn't been anything published to account for that change of mindset. As Bluntblade pointed out, 'Daemonology' and Path of Heaven retroactively explained it. It helped that in the latter Morty believes his activity at Molech is just a one-off moment of weakness.

 

Morty hoped in vain...

 

Mortarion is on a journey and has a lot of self-hatred to work out on the way. It’s worth remembering that besides Magnus and maybe Lorgar he knew the most about esotericism and warp-stuff from his studies under his Barbaran xenos ‘father’. He turned on it but bits, like the numerology, stuck with him.

 

Daemonology and/or Path of Heaven probably should have been published before Vengeful Spirit but digging up his old sorcery textbooks out of despair and desperation is one of the better changes to his character. Fits with his whole arc and works for the morose 40k Mortarion, the least jolly follower of Nurgle.

 

+1

 

Speaking of which (and getting back on thread topic) does Morty make an anti-Librarius appearance in this novella?

[DarkChaplain]

Timeline-wise, Vengeful Spirit happened a good time after Scars/Daemonology (which are placed in short succession). According to Tymell's timeline, Vengeful Spirit happens at least 2 years later. The Path of Heaven is another 2 years after that, and Exocytosis with Typhon turning Typhus not long after. The Buried Dagger should then be one of the most-recent novels in the timeline, along with Slaves to Darkness and Titandeath.

[Marshal Loss]

 

Speaking of which (and getting back on thread topic) does Morty make an anti-Librarius appearance in this novella?

 

No, although he is mentioned by name a few times

[godking]

Bought the ebook this morning and finished it in one setting.

 

Loved it.

 

Some  observations

 

1 Magnus is portrayed as a humongously arrogant dick openly insulting the ways of Jagathai's people.

 

2 Though Russ does not make an appearance i cant help but wonder that if Russ had been included in the Jagathai Sanguinus Magnus group there could have been a good chance of correctly managing the Librarius. A discussion between Russ and Jagathai and between their shaman could have prevented  so much misery.

 

3 Russ was the second found son and should have put in the work earlier to regulate the Librarius  instead of leaving it to Magnus  and then opposing it. Russ together with Jagathai should have been the ones to attempt to manage the librarius.

 

4 I liked the transition from the "traditional" starhunters to the white scars we have come to know and love.

[Knockagh]

A

[Sandlemad]

Reading it now and dang but Sanguinius is a charmer.

 

 

 

Sanguinius shrugged. 'We're all made into images for them. That is our purpose, you might say.' He leaned forwards conspiratorially. 'And between you and me...' he flashed his impossibly handsome smile, 'I am not really an angel.'

[Kelborn]

I loved it. Bought the LE. Looks beautiful and I don't regret buying it. Wraight is a great constant writer.

 

Leman Russ was great, the Khan does fit perfectly in his White Scars arc. Will definitely read all of it in one row sooner or later.

[b1soul]

I really enjoyed this...my only criticism is that Giyahun's character should have been fleshed out more.

 

His death would have had more impact on the reader if he had been one of the PoV characters. He could have served as a nice foil to Hasik.

 

A poster previously said this work was mostly fan-service. I respectfully disagree. After reading, I think this is no more and no loss fan-service than the rest of the primarch series. It does shed more light on the Khan's way of thinking and adds depth to certain scenes in Brotherhood of the Storm (e.g. the reader realises that not every polite utterance by the Khan should be taken at face value).

[Draakur]

Reading now and loving it. Squee!

[rendingon1+]

I disagree with fan service too. In this book Khan is quite differnt than in Scars or PoH, I find him less noble, composed and wise. Scene where he's bullying techpriests for example. It still fits his established personality since we all know that he disliked being on Terra and deal with all these bureaucratic stuff etc. So character progression which is a +.

[DarKnight]

Reading through now, but I must say: this is my favorite characterization of Sanguinius ever. He really is a charming SOB

[Sandlemad]

Just finished it now, having really enjoyed it. Not sure I'd go so far as to call it fan-service but certainly it doesn't break new ground in the same way as Perturabo. It's Chris Wraight shading in some of the aspects of the Khan and the WS's character he pretty much single-handedly developed in Brotherhood of the Storm, Scars and Path of Heaven.
This isn't a good or bad thing in itself. I think it stands to the previous heresy-era work on the Khan that this is a much less essential book for understanding his character, compared to Perturabo. Nice to have and very well done but not startlingly new. Structurally it's pretty subdued, more of a series of early to mid-crusade vignettes than a cohesive narrative, seeming to drift from one scene/date to another. We don't see the Khan's first meeting with Horus, for example.
 
As much as Giyahun himself is a fairly flat character, I really enjoyed the interactions between the Khan, Yesugei, Qin Xa, Hasik and him. You get a strong sense that these are blood brothers, they can joke and grumble and mock each other gently and are genuinely pleased to see each other after decades apart. They're all going through the same thing together, meeting the legion they're to lead. In that sense, this is probably the most comprehensive book about what happens immediately after a primarch is discovered and inspects their gene-sons.
 
Other thoughts:
 
- Some surprisingly fleshed out thoughts on the Blood Angels and Baalite culture, i.e. the contrast between the impermenance of life on Baal as it is with the clear evidence of a greater past spurring on the BA artistic development and sense of an aesthetic. Sanguinius was well-drawn for all he appeared only briefly.
 
- Who would have thought

Jubal Khan was a Terran? A nice surprise. Getting away from the Shiban/Torghun binary gives this book the opportunity to dig into the WS who did assimilate to the new legion culture well. It also shows how top-down and fairly ruthless the melding was; against Qin Xa's advice the Khan wants unity of approach in this one field over preserving the good qualities of the Terran elements of the legion. This is where he goes against the otherwise loose control he exercises over his troops.

 

- A very good depiction of orks and why they're so intimidating as a race of super-soldiers that no longer have a mandate. They are perfectly bred for war. They are free to do as they please, cut off from stuff about philosophies and empires and in that offer a contrast/hinted-at ideal for the WS.

 

- Confirmation that the SoH had a full-on librarius project before Magnus/Sanguinius/Jaghatai's codification. They might not have sued their psykers in battle but it was there, and only fell by the wayside with Horus's political ambitions. That too was neatly done, the Khan trying his best to win Horus on the pro-psyker side but realising that it would never be as soon as they had a warmaster who had to remain studiously neutral.

 

- The additional details on the WS fundamentally failing to work well with the larger imperial war machine (by choice, not linking up with the auxilia or logistics corps, leaving warzones when they feel they've done enough, handing responsibility for finishing operations to other forces, even where they knew they were being directed by Malcador) were worthwhile. All this solidify to my mind the idea that by the end of the crusade the Vth legion were likely considered one of the 'problem legions' by the powers that be on Terra, along with the Alpha Legion, World Eaters and (at the extreme end of the scale) Night Lords. 

 

Not playing well with others, of questionable devotion to the ideals of the crusade by both the primarch and wider legion culture, difficult to support or plan around, minimal communication with other imperial forces. Yesugei says something about them not being considered a 'prestige legion' in the same way as the XIIIth for recruits or material and that's a bit of a symptom.

It's not a completely incorrect judgement either; it's only after briefly considering just leaving the imperium and dropping out of the crusade that the Khan goes out of his way to head-hunt general Ravillion to clean up their act. That he'd consider that is a helluva thing.

[godking]

Another thing is that Jagathai and Russ being the "barbarian" primarchs.

 

Where the two primarchs who ironically where the wisest in regards to psykers and how they should be managed.

 

Yes even Russ even though his direct opposition to using psykers was hypocritical and strange as noted in this novel.

 

Magnus was by far the most intelligent and powerful in regards to psykers in the Legions but not the wisest.

[godking]

Just finished it now, having really enjoyed it. Not sure I'd go so far as to call it fan-service but certainly it doesn't break new ground in the same way as Perturabo. It's Chris Wraight shading in some of the aspects of the Khan and the WS's character he pretty much single-handedly developed in Brotherhood of the Storm, Scars and Path of Heaven.

This isn't a good or bad thing in itself. I think it stands to the previous heresy-era work on the Khan that this is a much less essential book for understanding his character, compared to Perturabo. Nice to have and very well done but not startlingly new. Structurally it's pretty subdued, more of a series of early to mid-crusade vignettes than a cohesive narrative, seeming to drift from one scene/date to another. We don't see the Khan's first meeting with Horus, for example.

 

As much as Giyahun himself is a fairly flat character, I really enjoyed the interactions between the Khan, Yesugei, Qin Xa, Hasik and him. You get a strong sense that these are blood brothers, they can joke and grumble and mock each other gently and are genuinely pleased to see each other after decades apart. They're all going through the same thing together, meeting the legion they're to lead. In that sense, this is probably the most comprehensive book about what happens immediately after a primarch is discovered and inspects their gene-sons.

 

Other thoughts:

 

- Some surprisingly fleshed out thoughts on the Blood Angels and Baalite culture, i.e. the contrast between the impermenance of life on Baal as it is with the clear evidence of a greater past spurring on the BA artistic development and sense of an aesthetic. Sanguinius was well-drawn for all he appeared only briefly.

 

- Who would have thought

Jubal Khan was a Terran? A nice surprise. Getting away from the Shiban/Torghun binary gives this book the opportunity to dig into the WS who did assimilate to the new legion culture well. It also shows how top-down and fairly ruthless the melding was; against Qin Xa's advice the Khan wants unity of approach in this one field over preserving the good qualities of the Terran elements of the legion. This is where he goes against the otherwise loose control he exercises over his troops.

 

- A very good depiction of orks and why they're so intimidating as a race of super-soldiers that no longer have a mandate. They are perfectly bred for war. They are free to do as they please, cut off from stuff about philosophies and empires and in that offer a contrast/hinted-at ideal for the WS.

 

- Confirmation that the SoH had a full-on librarius project before Magnus/Sanguinius/Jaghatai's codification. They might not have sued their psykers in battle but it was there, and only fell by the wayside with Horus's political ambitions. That too was neatly done, the Khan trying his best to win Horus on the pro-psyker side but realising that it would never be as soon as they had a warmaster who had to remain studiously neutral.

 

- The additional details on the WS fundamentally failing to work well with the larger imperial war machine (by choice, not linking up with the auxilia or logistics corps, leaving warzones when they feel they've done enough, handing responsibility for finishing operations to other forces, even where they knew they were being directed by Malcador) were worthwhile. All this solidify to my mind the idea that by the end of the crusade the Vth legion were likely considered one of the 'problem legions' by the powers that be on Terra, along with the Alpha Legion, World Eaters and (at the extreme end of the scale) Night Lords. 

 

Not playing well with others, of questionable devotion to the ideals of the crusade by both the primarch and wider legion culture, difficult to support or plan around, minimal communication with other imperial forces. Yesugei says something about them not being considered a 'prestige legion' in the same way as the XIIIth for recruits or material and that's a bit of a symptom.

It's not a completely incorrect judgement either; it's only after briefly considering just leaving the imperium and dropping out of the crusade that the Khan goes out of his way to head-hunt general Ravillion to clean up their act. That he'd consider that is a helluva thing.

You can't really compare the Vth legion with the world eaters & Nightlords in regards to problem Legions.

 

The Vth legion may have been difficult to work with at times but not damn near impossible as the Nightlords and World Eaters .

[Sandlemad]

 

You can't really compare the Vth legion with the world eaters & Nightlords in regards to problem Legions.

 

The Vth legion may have been difficult to work with at times but not damn near impossible as the Nightlords and World Eaters .

 

 

Out of universe, no, you can't. As far as the upper circles of the crusade are concerned, I think they could. By the time the heresy broke out the bulk of the Vth legion had been out of communication with other imperial forces for years. Even earlier, when the pre-Vulkan Salamanders were considered a broken legion on the fast track to extinction, FW's Massacre say that they were "no more reliable ultimately than the quixotic Vth Legion, whose control would increasingly cause difficulties for the Great Crusade". 

 

Same with the Alpha Legion, they weren't actually renegade or deliberately massacring worlds but they did suffer accusations at court that they were not serving the interests of the great crusade. From Extermination: "Secret reports prepared for both the Warmaster and the Imperial Court on Terra during this period show a growing unease about the Alpha Legion, some implying that it was increasingly beyond the Imperium's ability to measure or to control."

The gruesome reports from the WE and NL were surely unnerving but the lack of control and accountability almost certainly weighed more heavily on the minds of the imperial court and the top levels of crusade command.

 

It's a sliding scale regardless. I'm not saying the WS were as big a problem or likely to be put down as the WE or NL (folks seemed to forget about them anyway), but that to a Terran logisticar they're a less troublesome manifestation of the same broad problem; control and coordination in the eyes of increasingly bureaucratic campaign planners. This is where they were being measured against the Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, etc and not matching what a legion was conventionally thought to be.

[godking]

 

 

You can't really compare the Vth legion with the world eaters & Nightlords in regards to problem Legions.

 

The Vth legion may have been difficult to work with at times but not damn near impossible as the Nightlords and World Eaters .

 

 

Out of universe, no, you can't. As far as the upper circles of the crusade are concerned, I think they could. By the time the heresy broke out the bulk of the Vth legion had been out of communication with other imperial forces for years. Even earlier, when the pre-Vulkan Salamanders were considered a broken legion on the fast track to extinction, FW's Massacre say that they were "no more reliable ultimately than the quixotic Vth Legion, whose control would increasingly cause difficulties for the Great Crusade". 

 

Same with the Alpha Legion, they weren't actually renegade or deliberately massacring worlds but they did suffer accusations at court that they were not serving the interests of the great crusade. From Extermination: "Secret reports prepared for both the Warmaster and the Imperial Court on Terra during this period show a growing unease about the Alpha Legion, some implying that it was increasingly beyond the Imperium's ability to measure or to control."

The gruesome reports from the WE and NL were surely unnerving but the lack of control and accountability almost certainly weighed more heavily on the minds of the imperial court and the top levels of crusade command.

 

It's a sliding scale regardless. I'm not saying the WS were as big a problem or likely to be put down as the WE or NL (folks seemed to forget about them anyway), but that to a Terran logisticar they're a less troublesome manifestation of the same broad problem; control and coordination in the eyes of increasingly bureaucratic campaign planners. This is where they were being measured against the Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, etc and not matching what a legion was conventionally thought to be.

 

Good points.

 

Though you could argue that Jaghatai himself being a much less problematic Primarch then Angron & Kurze and less mysterious then Alpharius would also factor in.

[Sandlemad]

It's true, he complains about getting pigeon-holed as an ork-hunter so he... leads his legion off hunting orks. And that's largely fine, he's doing what he's good at and the imperium tends to forget about the Vth anyway. The WS doing their own thing is arguably less disruptive than joining in with a campaign and confusing matters with their lack of coordination. Pathfinders, as the FW description said and as I suspect will be elaborated in whatever eventual black book they're covered in.

 

If folks forgot about the WS and the Khan gets bolshy about it, it's at least partially because he doesn't make it easy for them. The quality of Wraight's work on the WS is that you get this complexity from their POV in the various novels and then you also have Ilya seeing through it and telling them to get over themselves.

[bluntblade]

Ironically, in the one account we have of the Scars fighting alongside the Imperial Army, the Army had nothing but good things to say about them and they fought side by side the entire way.