Primarch Book 8 - Jaghatai Khan: Warhawk of Chogoris

[b1soul]

"- A very good depiction of orks and why they're so intimidating as a race of super-soldiers that no longer have a mandate. They are perfectly bred for war. They are free to do as they please, cut off from stuff about philosophies and empires and in that offer a contrast/hinted-at ideal for the WS."

 

Good catch...the WS hold a "disturbing" amount of respect for the Orks and it's not hard to see why

[godking]

Ironically, in the one account we have of the Scars fighting alongside the Imperial Army, the Army had nothing but good things to say about them and they fought side by side the entire way. 

It also depends which armyLegion fights beside the White Scars

 

Space Wolves/Blood Angels/Sons of Horus/Emperors children/

 

 No real problems working together.

 

Ultramarines/Imperial Fists/Iron hands/Iron Warriors

Difficulty in working together due to to widely different approaches 

[bluntblade]

Well, this, I think, G9 Kill Division. The trooper in question using his other examples to contrast with the Wolves.

[godking]

We also got confirmation in this Novel that Geneseed can be implanted in post adolescent males but that the odds of survival are very slim.

 

We have two legion the space wolves and the white scars who are confirmed to have space marines who where past adolescence when they received their gene seed.

[Sandlemad]

Well, this, I think, G9 Kill Division. The trooper in question using his other examples to contrast with the Wolves.

 

That bit in Prospero Burns was interesting. The trooper praises the Death Guard and Blood Angels for their skill but then when he mentions the White Scars he says a bit more (my bolding): "‘White Scars, side by side, for six months on the plains of X173 Plural, hosing xeno-forms. Total focus and dedication, merciless. I cannot, hand on my heart, fault their duty, devotion to the Crusade cause, or their supreme effort as warriors.’"

 

That sounds a little weird to me. Like he's not just saying they're skilled but he's being particularly earnest about their devotion to the crusade and with an interesting phrasing. Might be reading too much into it (particularly for an early heresy novel) but it's the kind of thing you'd say about a legion whose character has been called into question by other sources, a legion whose reputation among the rest of the 'in-the-know' veterans is perhaps not the best.

 

That G9 Kill Division trooper feels like he wants to stick his neck out there and defend the WS. As in, "listen, don't believe what you're heard, don't believe the gossip, I was on X173 Plural and the Vth are absolutely dedicated. Now, about the wolves..."

[bluntblade]

Yeah, I thought that too. Of course, it's not known how close the Khan's private views are to those of his officers. Just the fact that Hasik was willing to split the Legion and order the deaths of his brothers to ensure that the Khan stood with Horus, because in his mind that was how it had to be, suggests a variety of views even at the top of the V.

 

Shiban, for that matter, later reflects that they were barely part of the "dream" in the Crusade, but that realisation only came with the onset of the Heresy. I reckon the Legion generally believed sincerely in the cause, but much preferred to fight for it in, to paraphrase Sir Lancelot, their own particular idiom.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

We also got confirmation in this Novel that Geneseed can be implanted in post adolescent males but that the odds of survival are very slim.

 

We have two legion the space wolves and the white scars who are confirmed to have space marines who where past adolescence when they received their gene seed.

Got confirmation of that ages ago when it was mentioned that Russ' retinue from his hooligan Fenris days all underwent the Astartes creation process, and practically all of them died

[Mellow]

I’ve finished this novel and enjoyed it very much compared to the Ferrus Manus one!

 

The writing was amazing. This author never fails to impress me.

 

Also interesting to see how similar the Scars and Space Wolves are. Both having shaman casts that demonstrate “restraint” when it comes to psychic powers. Something that the Thousand Sons struggled with obviously.

[godking]

 

We also got confirmation in this Novel that Geneseed can be implanted in post adolescent males but that the odds of survival are very slim.

 

We have two legion the space wolves and the white scars who are confirmed to have space marines who where past adolescence when they received their gene seed.

Got confirmation of that ages ago when it was mentioned that Russ' retinue from his hooligan Fenris days all underwent the Astartes creation process, and practically all of them died

 

I already knew about that.

 

But that was only the space wolves.

 

Now we have two examples of legions with Legionaries  who became legionaries whent hey where aged far beyond adolescence.

[godking]

I’ve finished this novel and enjoyed it very much compared to the Ferrus Manus one!

 

The writing was amazing. This author never fails to impress me.

 

Also interesting to see how similar the Scars and Space Wolves are. Both having shaman casts that demonstrate “restraint” when it comes to psychic powers. Something that the Thousand Sons struggled with obviously.

 

I’ve finished this novel and enjoyed it very much compared to the Ferrus Manus one!

 

The writing was amazing. This author never fails to impress me.

 

Also interesting to see how similar the Scars and Space Wolves are. Both having shaman casts that demonstrate “restraint” when it comes to psychic powers. Something that the Thousand Sons struggled with obviously.

True.

 

Ironically as i have already said earlier in this thread the "barbarian" primarchs had the correct idea in managing psychic powers.

 

If only Russ and Jaghatai could have worked together to manage the librarius instead of Magnus.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

 

We also got confirmation in this Novel that Geneseed can be implanted in post adolescent males but that the odds of survival are very slim.

 

We have two legion the space wolves and the white scars who are confirmed to have space marines who where past adolescence when they received their gene seed.

Got confirmation of that ages ago when it was mentioned that Russ' retinue from his hooligan Fenris days all underwent the Astartes creation process, and practically all of them died

 

I already knew about that.

 

But that was only the space wolves.

 

Now we have two examples of legions with Legionaries  who became legionaries whent hey where aged far beyond adolescence.

 

I mean, s'far as I'm aware, SW didn't do anything special during the indoctrination process, not sure why the only other example being SW (I kinda feel like there were others, but I don't remember them off the top of my head right now) would make the post-adolescence ascension process unique to them.

[bluntblade]

I think it was more a matter of who dared and just survived. Scars mentioned that Yesugei, Hasik and Qin Xa all "braved the perils". 

[TheRealMcCagh]

 

True.

 

Ironically as i have already said earlier in this thread the "barbarian" primarchs had the correct idea in managing psychic powers.

 

If only Russ and Jaghatai could have worked together to manage the librarius instead of Magnus.

 

Would Russ have been open to a Librarius in other legions? It seems to me like he only trusted his Rune Priests, I don't think he'd support other legions having psykers having not come directly from Fenris

[DarKnight]

I find it interesting that someone so inimical to healthy relationships at Mortarion would be currying favor in the Terran Court. Politics truly do make strange bedfellows I guess.

[Mellow]

Perhaps Russ meeting Jaghatai talking of shamans would be an interesting conversation.

 

Especially as Jaghatai keeps referring to “the gods”

[bluntblade]

I find it interesting that someone so inimical to healthy relationships at Mortarion would be currying favor in the Terran Court. Politics truly do make strange bedfellows I guess.

A Primarch's powers of persuasion, I suppose.

[godking]

 

 

True.

 

Ironically as i have already said earlier in this thread the "barbarian" primarchs had the correct idea in managing psychic powers.

 

If only Russ and Jaghatai could have worked together to manage the librarius instead of Magnus.

 

Would Russ have been open to a Librarius in other legions? It seems to me like he only trusted his Rune Priests, I don't think he'd support other legions having psykers having not come directly from Fenris

 

I don't see Russ having a problem with shamans as those the white scars used.

 

Russ had an issue with how the librarius system was managed.

 

As the SECOND found son he could have steered the librarius in the direction that he wanted it to go but chose the most negative option.

 

Russ could and should have done more then saying "The librarius is Malifacrium !!"

[bluntblade]

But then that would have meant sacrificing that "the strong are strongest alone" ethic he shared with Ferrus and actually took further. The exceptionalism and isolationism ensured that he never built bridges like the Khan did, and therefore didn't perceive until two late that the Khan and Sanguinius devised most of the Librarius structure in order to restrain psykers in the Legions.

[b1soul]

I cannot, hand on my heart, fault their duty, devotion to the Crusade cause, or their supreme effort as warriors

To me, sounds like they ran into Torghun's company or another group of by the book Terran stiffs

[godking]

 

I cannot, hand on my heart, fault their duty, devotion to the Crusade cause, or their supreme effort as warriors

To me, sounds like they ran into Torghun's company or another group of by the book Terran stiffs

 

The worst i think that you can say regarding the White scars working with others is that they are difficult to plan around.

 

Not that they are unreliable.

 

They keep to promises if they make them.

 

 

I cannot, hand on my heart, fault their duty, devotion to the Crusade cause, or their supreme effort as warriors

To me, sounds like they ran into Torghun's company or another group of by the book Terran stiffs

 

[bluntblade]

I suspect that once they commit, they'll work properly with whoever fights with them (witness Hibou cooperating with Henricos, and the Scars who allied with the Nemean Reaver and his Blackshields) rather than doing an Alpha Legion and working in parallel with their fellow Imperials rather than together with them. It's more getting them in sync with other fleets in the first place that's the headache.

[carlisimo]

We also got confirmation in this Novel that Geneseed can be implanted in post adolescent males but that the odds of survival are very slim.

 

We have two legion the space wolves and the white scars who are confirmed to have space marines who where past adolescence when they received their gene seed.

 

The Dark Angels had several older Calibanites turned into Space Marines too, IIRC.  As for why it worked well for the White Scars - I can't say for sure, but the old lore does say their geneseed is pretty stable, and it's safe to say the Space Wolves' isn't. 

 

At least the numbers work better than those of the poor Imperial Fists, who'd have to go through 50 million little boys to get a legion of 100,000 if you take Praetorian of Dorn as a guide.  Can't do that on a feral or feudal world.

 

 

 

I don't see Russ having a problem with shamans as those the white scars used.

 

Russ had an issue with how the librarius system was managed.

 

As the SECOND found son he could have steered the librarius in the direction that he wanted it to go but chose the most negative option.

 

Russ could and should have done more then saying "The librarius is Malifacrium !!"

 

 

I hear that Russ's reasoning might've changed a little in the last two novels (haven't read them yet), but previously the Wolves had always believed that their wolf-priests were drawing from Fenris's world-spirit rather than from the Warp, and that's what made them safe.  I guess Fenris did the regulating for them.  They didn't trust anyone who was tapping directly into the Warp, and that would include the Scars' stormseers. 

[TheRealMcCagh]

 

 

 

I hear that Russ's reasoning might've changed a little in the last two novels (haven't read them yet), but previously the Wolves had always believed that their wolf-priests were drawing from Fenris's world-spirit rather than from the Warp, and that's what made them safe.  I guess Fenris did the regulating for them.  They didn't trust anyone who was tapping directly into the Warp, and that would include the Scars' stormseers. 

 

 

Russ has a line in Wolfsbane where he explains it a little bit. Very minor Wolfsbane Spoiler:

 

'Is it? The priests of my Legion and the Stormseers of Jaghatai's are different to the Librarians that were. Our warrior's draw on an older tradition. A limited tradition. Magnus did not believe in limits. That was his error.'

 

But the Russ I know doesn't seem like he'd be cool with traveling to Caliban and Baal and teaching people how to be wolf priests. He seems like he would rather be given special exception and the other legions can just deal with it. Just my interpretation of Russ though

[godking]

 

We also got confirmation in this Novel that Geneseed can be implanted in post adolescent males but that the odds of survival are very slim.

 

We have two legion the space wolves and the white scars who are confirmed to have space marines who where past adolescence when they received their gene seed.

 

The Dark Angels had several older Calibanites turned into Space Marines too, IIRC.  As for why it worked well for the White Scars - I can't say for sure, but the old lore does say their geneseed is pretty stable, and it's safe to say the Space Wolves' isn't. 

 

At least the numbers work better than those of the poor Imperial Fists, who'd have to go through 50 million little boys to get a legion of 100,000 if you take Praetorian of Dorn as a guide.  Can't do that on a feral or feudal world.

 

 

 

I don't see Russ having a problem with shamans as those the white scars used.

 

Russ had an issue with how the librarius system was managed.

 

As the SECOND found son he could have steered the librarius in the direction that he wanted it to go but chose the most negative option.

 

Russ could and should have done more then saying "The librarius is Malifacrium !!"

 

 

I hear that Russ's reasoning might've changed a little in the last two novels (haven't read them yet), but previously the Wolves had always believed that their wolf-priests were drawing from Fenris's world-spirit rather than from the Warp, and that's what made them safe.  I guess Fenris did the regulating for them.  They didn't trust anyone who was tapping directly into the Warp, and that would include the Scars' stormseers. 

 

The Calibanites were'nt turned into full space marines.

 

Technology was used to get them as close to space marines as possible but they did not receive gene seed.

[Indefragable]

Finished the audiobook version of this in 3 painting sessions.

 

I liked it.

 

Not really a Spoiler since it's some of the opening lines of the entire book...

Imperial Scholar: "When studying the Fifth, there seems to be only confusion."

The Emperor: "Ah, now you do understand."

...but it kind does some things up about Khan's personality and outlook. Is he the only known person in the Imperium to openly show his unhappiness with the Emperor and get away with it? It's actually kind of surprising when you think about it. In fact, it seems to be the one thing the Khan is known for. The book has various characters saying things like:

"Little is known about you, Jaghatai, but what is known is your disagreement with our Father."

...how does somebody get away with that?

 

The story, broken up in near-episodic tales, is ostensibly about the Scars' Stormseers and how their "weather magic" was seen and feared by other Legions and the Imperium, ultimately leading to the Council of Nikea. Under the surface, it is really a tale of the Black Sheep of the family. How one chooses adopted family over blood family. About the road less traveled. The Stormseers are truly the model for which all Librarians in the Legions, and in fact arguably all psykers in the Imperium, should act, yet the arrogance of the Imperium can not seem to grasp a good role model when they are shown one, especially not from such "savages." Likewise, a creature born to roam such as the Khan seems unwilling to stop and smell the roses just long enough to make an impact on the galaxy.

 

The book features a surprisingly good amount of non-combat interaction among Primarchs, including important dialogue that shows off their personalities, including in pairings we have not seen before.

Maybe it's setting up a character/buddy-cop arc for them, but when Sanguinius, Magnus, and the Khan meet together on Baal to start preparing their defense of the Librarius against Morty/Russ/Ferrus, Magnus comes off as openly belittling of Khan's Stormseers. Sanguinius is diplomatic as always and the peacemaker, but Magnus pretty much insults Khan and his homeworld. Yet in Scars we know that Jaghatai considered Magnus one of his only friends (or the closest thing to it he had among his brothers). The way the interactions are written, you'd think Khan and Sangy were the close ones, especially since it hints that Sanguinius was the first primarch to catch* the Khan in the void...something the rest of the 14 rediscovered brothers were placing bets on. There seems to be nothing but kinship between the two, different as they are.

 

*the Khan basically got too curious about who was attempting to keep up with him for so long and slowed down to meet him

 

Personality-wise, the Khan comes off as Russ-lite, moreso it seems than even in Scars or Path of Heaven. Perhaps this is Chris Wraight writing them both, perhaps this is Jonathan Keeble's narration. It's a double edged sword: on one hand, they are quite similar in the sense that they wear their "savage, primitive" homeworld cultures as a badge of pride. On the other hand, the disdain for politicking and utter arrogance when it comes the superiority of their own cultures can dip into familiar territory a bit too much for my taste, at times.

 

Targutai Yesugei is as awesome as always. The perfect balance of wisdom, curiosity, diplomacy, and insight.

 

Overall thoughts:

"Warhawk" is probably the most appropriate moniker of all the Primarchs aside from the literal Angel among them. The Khan his sons are hunting birds: effective, brutal, and majestic in their own way, but only ever a tamed beast when it serves their purposes. Whereas wolves, like all canines, are pack animals that thrive on social interaction--both positive and negative--the Scars are avian in their outlook. The sons of Chogoris care not for the jockeying for Alpha wolf status, much preferring to look down from the winds where they can endless roam unfettered and above the petty concerns of those poor sods in the mud, swooping in for the quick kill before rising again into the heights. The Khan, if he had been given the chance, may have left the stifling, hypocritical, slack-bellied Imperium altogether. The question as always is whether that was the Emperor's design all along.

 

 

 

My personal ranking of the Primarch novels so far. Criteria: my own opinion that is vital to the fabric of this universe

Hidden Content

 

1. Fulgrim

2. Leman Russ

3A.. Perturabo

3B. Jaghatai Khan

5B. Lorgar

5B. Magnus the Red

7. Ferrus Manus

18. Roboute Guilliman (yea, it was that much worse IMHO and not just because it's about the poster boy himself)