BAO List Analysis - Raptors and Raven Guard

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

First the lists:

 

Erik Scrivens: Raven Guard / IG / Imperial Soup | Record: 4-2, Place: 16th 

 

10 CP

 

Raven Guard - Battalion - 1249 pts

 

Captain - Chainsword, Bolt Pistol

Lieutenant - Chainsword, Bolt Pistol

 

3x 5 Man Scout Squads - Bolters

 

6 Man Devastator Squad - Cherub, 2 x LC, 2 x PC

6 Man Devastator Squad - Cherub, 2 x Lascannon, 1 x PC, 1 x Heavy Bolter

 

Company Ancient - Bolter

 

Stormraven - Twin AC, Twin HB, 2 x Hurricane Bolters, 2 x SSML

 

Vostroyan - Battalion - 525 pts

 

2x Primaris Psyker - Force Staves

 

3x Conscripts (2x 20 Man, 1x 22 Man)

 

3x Heavy Weapon Squad - Mortars

 

Vulture - Twin Punisher Gatling Cannon, HB

 

Imperium - Vanguard - 223

 

Celestine

 

3x Astropath

 

Commisar - Boltgun

 

----

 

Cooper Waddell: Raptors | Record: 4-2, Place: 24th

 

5 CP

 

Air Wing Detachment

 

Fire Raptor - Twin Hellstrike Launchers, Twin Autocannons

Storm Talon - Typhoon Missles, Twin AC

Storm Talon - Typhoon Missles, Twin AC

 

Spearhead Detachment

 

Lias Issodon

Lieutenant - JP, Power Lance, MC Bolter

 

Relic Whirlwind Scorpius

10 Man Sternguard (Special Issue Boltguns)

5 Man Devastators - Cherub, 4x Grav-Cannons, Combi Melta, Chainsword

5 Man Devastators - Cherub, 4x Grav-Cannons, Combi Melta, Chainsword

Thunderfire Cannon

 

----

 

Thomas Hegstrom Oakey: Raptors | Record: 4-2, Place: 32nd

 

8 CP

 

Raptors - Battalion Detachment

 

Lias Issodon

Lieutenant - Jump Pack, Storm Bolter, Chainsword

 

3x 5 Man Scout Squad - Camo Cloaks, 3x Bolter, 1x Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter (for Sergeant)

 

5 Hellblasters - Plasma Incenerators

 

Raptors - Spearhead Detachment

 

Captain - Jump Pack, Teeth of Terra, Stormshield

 

2x 5 Man Tactical Squad - 3x Bolter, 1x Missle Launcher, Storm Bolter/Chainsword on Sergeant

 

8 Man Devastator Squad - 4x LC, Storm Bolter, Cherub

8 Man Devastator Squad - 4x ML, Storm Bolter, Cherub

8 Man Devastator Squad - 4x GC, Storm Bolter, Cherub

 

Company Ancient - Banner of the Emperor Ascendant, Storm Bolter

 

Imperium - Vanguard Detachment

 

Lieutenant - Stom Bolter, Chainsword

 

3x Culexus Assassin

 

----

 

Danny Kwan: Raptors & Blood Angels | Record: 3-3, Place: 70th

 

8 CP

 

Raptors (Raven Guard) - Battalion Detachment - 1067 pts

 

Captain on Bike - Storm Bolter, The Teeth of Terra

Lieutenant - Chainsword, The Primarch's Wrath

 

2x 5 Man Scout Squad - Bolters

5 Man Scout Squad - 4 Sniper Rifles, Heavy Bolter

 

5 Man Sternguard Squad - Special Issue Boltguns

 

2x Scout Bike Squad - Shotguns, Storm Bolter on Sergeant

 

3x Devastator Squad - 3x Grav-Cannons, Cherub

 

Raptors (Raven Guard) - Spearhead Detachment - 486 pts

 

Lias Issodon

 

2x Rapier Quad Mortar - 2 Crewman

Thunderfire Cannon

 

Blood Angels - Outrider Detachment - 446 pts

 

Captain - Jump Pack, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol

 

3x 5 Man Assault Squad - 2x Meltaguns 

 

 

----

 

Natr Birkholz: Raven Guard | Record 2-4, Place 109th

 

List Not Currently Loading

 

-----

 

Paulo Picolomini: Raven Guard | Record 1-1-4, Place 114th

 

12 CP

 

Raven Guard - Brigade Detachment

 

Primaris Captain - MC Auto Bolt Rifle

Primaris Leutnant - MC Auto Bolt Rifle

Captain - Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer

Leutenant - Jump Pack, Power Sword

 

3x 5 Man Primaris Intercessors

5 Man Scout Squad - 4 Sniper Rifles, Missle Launcher

5 Man Scout Squad - 4 Bolters, Missle Launcher

5 Man Tactical Squad - Power Axe, Missle Launcher

 

5 Man Primaris Reiver Squad - Grapnel Launchers

5 Man Primaris Reiver Squad - Grapnel Launchers

5 Man Vanguard Veterans - 1 Thunder Hammer

 

5 Man Assault Marine Squad - Power Fist

5 Man Assault Marine Squad - Power Fist

3 Man Scout Bike Squad - Power Sword

 

5 Man Hellblaster Squad - Incinerators

5 Man Devastator Squad - 4x Lascannon

5 Man Devastator Squad - 4x Missle Launcher

 

Update: finished all the Raptor/RG lists. If I can Natr's list to load ill toss it up.

5 Man Assault Marine Squad - Power Fist

Edited October 24, 2017 by ltvyper

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I dont consider this a raven guard or raptor list.  It is a tournament list whose defining characteristics are conscripts and smite spam.  The space marine portion of the list is basically irrelevant.  Im sure this type of list would be as good and work the same with dark angels, blood angels, grey knights, ultramarines, whatever.  

Edited October 23, 2017 by SanguinaryGuardsman

[duz_]

I tend to agree the only reason its RG is so that the gunline can benefit from -1 to hit and possibly StfS

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I have updated the OP to contain 3 lists, and I will update it more tomorrow with the rest

 

@SG: I get where you are coming from, but the thing to remember when looking at Imperial Soup lists is that it still gives you an idea why they made the choices they did.

 

I even considered adding in the various Alpha Legion lists that placed well, since they share our same trait, there is information to be gleaned on that front as well.

[GreyCrow]

So? Since when are the Raven Guard prohibited from sending their sneakiest elements to assist our weaker Imperial Guards counterparts ? :P

 

@OP : I'm curious, did you find that the RG portion of the list helped out ?

I see your list being very driven towards the gunline, if we were going at it from a min maxing standpoint, I would mix the shoots element of the Raven Guard with a more assaults oriented frontline force!

 

Or the opposite, using a Raven Guard ally for STFS shenanigans

[smbarne]

Looks like Lias is being used to deep strike devestators around him and then use a jump Lt to get the rerolls of 1 to wound.  Using Lias means you have fewer drops, less risk of being alpha struck off the board, and a lot of rerolls to help with the -1 to hit for heavy weapons.

 

I'm encouraged to see some grav cannons in there.  I've got a group of four I love the look of but have had a hard time making work in 8th for the Raven Guard.  I'm surprised there were no sternguard with combi weapons or company vets with plasma to deepstrike in.  Though I love that there were a 10 man unit of Sternguard for that sweet stratagem in a competitive game!  Reroll all misses, AP -2, +1 to wound, reroll 1's to wound is no joke it seems.

 

I find it a bit sad as a player with a lot of Raven Guard that Raptors do sneaky better than Raven Guard due to Lias in this edition, but I'm glad Raptors are awesome!

[Nusquam]

I like the lists, but they don't feel refined as a whole.

 

The first list has what conscript spam will become going forward, psykers casting the morale power on them. Though they will become Valhallan with the pre-nerf commissar relic pistol and the commissar is obsolete. The general idea makes sense, marine firebases with disposable troops. Celestine is a bit of a ringer. She's quality, but I feel she could have been replaced with more conscripts to protect the RG.

 

The second one was a pure Lias fire base. I suspect it didn't have nearly enough volume of shots, but would have done fine against other elite oriented armies.

 

The third list had the most teeth IMHO. I'm surprised it placed the lowest. I would wager this one also struggled against brimestone/conscript/cultist spam. Had he swapped the Hellblasters out for Aggressors I would also wager he'd have placed much better.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I like the lists, but they don't feel refined as a whole.

 

The first list has what conscript spam will become going forward, psykers casting the morale power on them. Though they will become Valhallan with the pre-nerf commissar relic pistol and the commissar is obsolete. The general idea makes sense, marine firebases with disposable troops. Celestine is a bit of a ringer. She's quality, but I feel she could have been replaced with more conscripts to protect the RG.

 

The second one was a pure Lias fire base. I suspect it didn't have nearly enough volume of shots, but would have done fine against other elite oriented armies.

 

The third list had the most teeth IMHO. I'm surprised it placed the lowest. I would wager this one also struggled against brimestone/conscript/cultist spam. Had he swapped the Hellblasters out for Aggressors I would also wager he'd have placed much better.

 

The two biggest lists - presence wise - that I see when "mining" through the app for RG/Raptor lists - are Brimstone/LoW lists and Ynnari. Against both opponents cheap bodies and volume of fire is crucial. 

 

More lists to be posted today.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Looks like Lias is being used to deep strike devestators around him and then use a jump Lt to get the rerolls of 1 to wound.  Using Lias means you have fewer drops, less risk of being alpha struck off the board, and a lot of rerolls to help with the -1 to hit for heavy weapons.

 

I'm encouraged to see some grav cannons in there.  I've got a group of four I love the look of but have had a hard time making work in 8th for the Raven Guard.  I'm surprised there were no sternguard with combi weapons or company vets with plasma to deepstrike in.  Though I love that there were a 10 man unit of Sternguard for that sweet stratagem in a competitive game!  Reroll all misses, AP -2, +1 to wound, reroll 1's to wound is no joke it seems.

 

I find it a bit sad as a player with a lot of Raven Guard that Raptors do sneaky better than Raven Guard due to Lias in this edition, but I'm glad Raptors are awesome!

 

I couldn't agree more on your second point. Reviewing this data has simply made apparent to me that I need a "counts-as" Lias Issodon model in RG colors so I can use him when playing in a heavily competitive environment.

[Claws and Effect]

Screw Lias. 

 

I'll do what I always do: Figure out how to win with what I want to use instead of having my choice dictated to me. 

 

Did the same thing in the MMO I used to play, as well as MtG. 

 

Still working out how to best use Shrike. I'll figure it out eventually. 

[seriade]

The thing with lias is that he is saving you 3 cp and making one drop.  The only thing that i feel you may need to use if you want to replace him is a drop pod+ 2-3 sfts placements.

[Nusquam]

The wording on Ambush is tricky, I think it still counts as seperate drops to enqueue.

 

I want to like Sternguard but Hellblasters are better if you seek plasma for a lot of reasons. Though Stern can rrive whenever you want with Lias. I feel pods are overpriced. Id keep them with their special boltguns.

[smbarne]

 

Looks like Lias is being used to deep strike devestators around him and then use a jump Lt to get the rerolls of 1 to wound.  Using Lias means you have fewer drops, less risk of being alpha struck off the board, and a lot of rerolls to help with the -1 to hit for heavy weapons.

 

I'm encouraged to see some grav cannons in there.  I've got a group of four I love the look of but have had a hard time making work in 8th for the Raven Guard.  I'm surprised there were no sternguard with combi weapons or company vets with plasma to deepstrike in.  Though I love that there were a 10 man unit of Sternguard for that sweet stratagem in a competitive game!  Reroll all misses, AP -2, +1 to wound, reroll 1's to wound is no joke it seems.

 

I find it a bit sad as a player with a lot of Raven Guard that Raptors do sneaky better than Raven Guard due to Lias in this edition, but I'm glad Raptors are awesome!

 

I couldn't agree more on your second point. Reviewing this data has simply made apparent to me that I need a "counts-as" Lias Issodon model in RG colors so I can use him when playing in a heavily competitive environment.

 

 

Yeah I was thinking the same thing.  Lias can be a cool model regardless!

 

Screw Lias. 

 

I'll do what I always do: Figure out how to win with what I want to use instead of having my choice dictated to me. 

 

Did the same thing in the MMO I used to play, as well as MtG. 

 

Still working out how to best use Shrike. I'll figure it out eventually. 

 

Always a good point!  Play what you want and learn it well.  My point was that Raptors with Lias have a playstyle that could be more fun, dynamic, and Raven Guard-esque than without thanks to his very generous rules for deep striking, camo cloak, and ranged weaponry.  I've had some trouble with Shrike because he dies so easily in CC and I feel like he's expensive to sit back and not use his wargear at all.

 

The wording on Ambush is tricky, I think it still counts as seperate drops to enqueue.

 

I want to like Sternguard but Hellblasters are better if you seek plasma for a lot of reasons. Though Stern can rrive whenever you want with Lias. I feel pods are overpriced. Id keep them with their special boltguns.

 

Typically these things count as separate drops.  SftS, scout infiltrate, etc are generally one drop per action.  Lias's wording makes setting him and up to three other <RAPTORS> infantry in the shadows ( deep strike ) all as one action.  So besides being three drop pods of points it also reduces your drops.  So. Good.

 

I'm still a bit upset it doesn't work with Primaris because they desprately need mobility options **and** my Primaris Army is likely going to run <RAPTORS> chapter tactics.  Oh well.

[Nusquam]

I get what you mean. We had thought the same thing regarding reserves being one action. After the commentary came out I still think Ambush is all separate as you still nominate the unit. I would love it if it weren't.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I think it's pretty clear cut.

 

Master of Ambush states: "...set up Lias Issodon and up to three friendly.." and "...Lias Issodon and any accompanying units can reveal themselves..."

 

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but you deploy units one at a time, but his Master of Ambush rule clearly states you deploy him and up to 3 other units into the shadow, and they all pop out at the same time. 

 

You interpret it as its up to 4 separate deployment actions? Would you also consider them "coming out of the shadows" separate as well then? (aka you could split them up over different turns?)

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Some thoughts/notes/trends:

 

1) In general, Raptors > Raven Guard, due to the strength of Lias (Not to say that Raven Guard is unusable, it is, Shrike just isn't as strong as Lias is, for a multitude of reasons). More on this later

 

2) Very little CC/Counter CC present in almost all lists. Its very apparent 8th is a shooting meta (if there were any doubts). Lists that run CC units are ones that get great CC units for very little cost (Khorne Bezerkers are the shining example here).

 

3) Units that I personally find to be allstars in the competitive meta and in Raven Guard/Raptors in particular had little to no presence - Fire Support Dreads and Aggressors. This baffles me. I see no reason to not see more Mortis Autocannon dreads and LC/ML Ven Dreads, and Boltstorm Aggressors. The amount of Brim/Conscript spam, Aggressors would seem quite good.

 

4) Large model count troops units seemed to be very critical to the competitive environment. You either had to have them, or a way to deal with them, or both. 

 

5) Devastator squads are the preferred AT method, as best to take advantage of our Chapter Trait, I assume.

 

For me, Cooper Waddell's list is the most compelling. With a Fire Raptor and two Storm Talons, he has very little boots on the ground. He has a low model count overall, but his list feels fluffy. Also the inclusion of Grav-Cannons (as smbarne mentioned) is interesting.

 

Side Note: I don't think the relationship between placing <--> army list should be over-valued. There are lists that look suboptimal at first glance that place high simply because the person piloting the list is an excellent player and is comfortable and familiar with what they have. Furthermore, there are what appear to be well tuned lists that place lower, and this can be attributed to skill (or matchup, mission, etc). 40k is a game of a lot of variables.

 

I think the biggest take-away is to look at the list pool as a whole and see the commonalities between the players, and to identify what their purpose was. (This was also why I considered the multitude of Alpha Legion lists as well)

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

So? Since when are the Raven Guard prohibited from sending their sneakiest elements to assist our weaker Imperial Guards counterparts ?

 

@OP : I'm curious, did you find that the RG portion of the list helped out ?

I see your list being very driven towards the gunline, if we were going at it from a min maxing standpoint, I would mix the shoots element of the Raven Guard with a more assaults oriented frontline force!

 

Or the opposite, using a Raven Guard ally for STFS shenanigans

 

Missed this early on. Not my list GreyCrow, just me pulling data from the BestCoastPairings app from the results of the Bay Area Open that took place in California this past weekend.

[Nusquam]

I think it's pretty clear cut.

 

Master of Ambush states: "...set up Lias Issodon and up to three friendly.." and "...Lias Issodon and any accompanying units can reveal themselves..."

 

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but you deploy units one at a time, but his Master of Ambush rule clearly states you deploy him and up to 3 other units into the shadow, and they all pop out at the same time. 

 

You interpret it as its up to 4 separate deployment actions? Would you also consider them "coming out of the shadows" separate as well then? (aka you could split them up over different turns?)

 

I disagree that it's so clear cut. We thought a few things were clear but it was GW not writing the rules with enough clarification. Like I said, I'm all for Lias being better, and I would love consolidating drops. The word "accompanying" does make it seem like they arrive together, but the first half of the rule doesn't spell out if they all count as one or not. It can go either way; that you nominate each one at a time up to three to be deployed via his rule or that you choose all three at once. It doesn't say which. Originally we had thought tactical reserves worked the first way, all one drop. The RAW wording supported it, but the commentary changed all that. This feels like the same thing.

 

I'm going to email FW for what it's worth. If it consolidates drops, love it but I'll have to reevaluate Hellblasters. If not then I carry on as normal.

[Mileposter]

If that's actually the way Issodon works, it just makes him that much more broken. Not a fan.

[Nusquam]

Magnus, Gman, and Morty exist. Ill take every single advantage I can get. Especially since Gman is utterly over the top broken.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

I think it's pretty clear cut.

 

Master of Ambush states: "...set up Lias Issodon and up to three friendly.." and "...Lias Issodon and any accompanying units can reveal themselves..."

 

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but you deploy units one at a time, but his Master of Ambush rule clearly states you deploy him and up to 3 other units into the shadow, and they all pop out at the same time. 

 

You interpret it as its up to 4 separate deployment actions? Would you also consider them "coming out of the shadows" separate as well then? (aka you could split them up over different turns?)

 

I disagree that it's so clear cut. We thought a few things were clear but it was GW not writing the rules with enough clarification. Like I said, I'm all for Lias being better, and I would love consolidating drops. The word "accompanying" does make it seem like they arrive together, but the first half of the rule doesn't spell out if they all count as one or not. It can go either way; that you nominate each one at a time up to three to be deployed via his rule or that you choose all three at once. It doesn't say which. Originally we had thought tactical reserves worked the first way, all one drop. The RAW wording supported it, but the commentary changed all that. This feels like the same thing.

 

I'm going to email FW for what it's worth. If it consolidates drops, love it but I'll have to reevaluate Hellblasters. If not then I carry on as normal.

 

 

Totally get where you are coming from. There have been many times in the past where I have read a debate on rules, and thought "oh, its obviously xyz" and then an FAQ comes out a month later and I read it, and I go "Huh, thats a complete 180".

[Nusquam]

Just heard back from Forgeworld, it is indeed all one "drop"! You were right Vyper! That is amazing. Forget Hellblasters I'm dropping groups of plasma Stern in. I thought it was too good to be true but here we are, Lias is better than I had thought.

[smbarne]

Some thoughts/notes/trends:

 

1) In general, Raptors > Raven Guard, due to the strength of Lias (Not to say that Raven Guard is unusable, it is, Shrike just isn't as strong as Lias is, for a multitude of reasons). More on this later

 

2) Very little CC/Counter CC present in almost all lists. Its very apparent 8th is a shooting meta (if there were any doubts). Lists that run CC units are ones that get great CC units for very little cost (Khorne Bezerkers are the shining example here).

 

3) Units that I personally find to be allstars in the competitive meta and in Raven Guard/Raptors in particular had little to no presence - Fire Support Dreads and Aggressors. This baffles me. I see no reason to not see more Mortis Autocannon dreads and LC/ML Ven Dreads, and Boltstorm Aggressors. The amount of Brim/Conscript spam, Aggressors would seem quite good.

 

4) Large model count troops units seemed to be very critical to the competitive environment. You either had to have them, or a way to deal with them, or both. 

 

5) Devastator squads are the preferred AT method, as best to take advantage of our Chapter Trait, I assume.

 

For me, Cooper Waddell's list is the most compelling. With a Fire Raptor and two Storm Talons, he has very little boots on the ground. He has a low model count overall, but his list feels fluffy. Also the inclusion of Grav-Cannons (as smbarne mentioned) is interesting.

 

Side Note: I don't think the relationship between placing <--> army list should be over-valued. There are lists that look suboptimal at first glance that place high simply because the person piloting the list is an excellent player and is comfortable and familiar with what they have. Furthermore, there are what appear to be well tuned lists that place lower, and this can be attributed to skill (or matchup, mission, etc). 40k is a game of a lot of variables.

 

I think the biggest take-away is to look at the list pool as a whole and see the commonalities between the players, and to identify what their purpose was. (This was also why I considered the multitude of Alpha Legion lists as well)

 

My two cents:

 

2) Very true.  There are some counter CC armies, but mainly it is because the unit is just a beast.  Hint: Gulliman giving rerolls and oh yeah, he has the Sword of the Emperor so good luck getting near!

 

3) This one is interesting definitely.  I'm going to just spitball:

 

 - Primaris ( Aggressors ) struggle with deployment, transports, and mobility.  With SftS it really helps **but** if you don't get first turn it can be sub-optimal.  Depp striking with shooting units ( such as Lias ) means that your alpha units are protected if you don't get first turn.

 - The same goes for dev's versus venerable dreads.  They can use Lias to deep strike just to stay safe from an alpha strike and get additional mobility.  Rerolling everything means the movement is fairly acceptable.  Also this is likely why we see grav cannons.  High RoF helps offset movement penalties.

 - The Standard of the Emperor seems fairly popular in a tournament meta currently.  This only affects <INFANTRY>, hence devs over dreads I bet.

 - Lastly on the Aggressors point, it may just be that the tournament meta is a bit shy of Primaris right now due to them getting a relatively bad rap or just people not having the models yet **shrug**

 

Makes me want to maybe try two grav dev squads, a chapter ancient, a jump pack Lt, and Lias and see how it does at 24".

[seriade]

 

Some thoughts/notes/trends:

 

1) In general, Raptors > Raven Guard, due to the strength of Lias (Not to say that Raven Guard is unusable, it is, Shrike just isn't as strong as Lias is, for a multitude of reasons). More on this later

 

2) Very little CC/Counter CC present in almost all lists. Its very apparent 8th is a shooting meta (if there were any doubts). Lists that run CC units are ones that get great CC units for very little cost (Khorne Bezerkers are the shining example here).

 

3) Units that I personally find to be allstars in the competitive meta and in Raven Guard/Raptors in particular had little to no presence - Fire Support Dreads and Aggressors. This baffles me. I see no reason to not see more Mortis Autocannon dreads and LC/ML Ven Dreads, and Boltstorm Aggressors. The amount of Brim/Conscript spam, Aggressors would seem quite good.

 

4) Large model count troops units seemed to be very critical to the competitive environment. You either had to have them, or a way to deal with them, or both. 

 

5) Devastator squads are the preferred AT method, as best to take advantage of our Chapter Trait, I assume.

 

For me, Cooper Waddell's list is the most compelling. With a Fire Raptor and two Storm Talons, he has very little boots on the ground. He has a low model count overall, but his list feels fluffy. Also the inclusion of Grav-Cannons (as smbarne mentioned) is interesting.

 

Side Note: I don't think the relationship between placing <--> army list should be over-valued. There are lists that look suboptimal at first glance that place high simply because the person piloting the list is an excellent player and is comfortable and familiar with what they have. Furthermore, there are what appear to be well tuned lists that place lower, and this can be attributed to skill (or matchup, mission, etc). 40k is a game of a lot of variables.

 

I think the biggest take-away is to look at the list pool as a whole and see the commonalities between the players, and to identify what their purpose was. (This was also why I considered the multitude of Alpha Legion lists as well)

 

My two cents:

 

2) Very true.  There are some counter CC armies, but mainly it is because the unit is just a beast.  Hint: Gulliman giving rerolls and oh yeah, he has the Sword of the Emperor so good luck getting near!

 

3) This one is interesting definitely.  I'm going to just spitball:

 

 - Primaris ( Aggressors ) struggle with deployment, transports, and mobility.  With SftS it really helps **but** if you don't get first turn it can be sub-optimal.  Depp striking with shooting units ( such as Lias ) means that your alpha units are protected if you don't get first turn.

 - The same goes for dev's versus venerable dreads.  They can use Lias to deep strike just to stay safe from an alpha strike and get additional mobility.  Rerolling everything means the movement is fairly acceptable.  Also this is likely why we see grav cannons.  High RoF helps offset movement penalties.

 - The Standard of the Emperor seems fairly popular in a tournament meta currently.  This only affects <INFANTRY>, hence devs over dreads I bet.

 - Lastly on the Aggressors point, it may just be that the tournament meta is a bit shy of Primaris right now due to them getting a relatively bad rap or just people not having the models yet **shrug**

 

Makes me want to maybe try two grav dev squads, a chapter ancient, a jump pack Lt, and Lias and see how it does at 24".

 

The reason for not seeing #3 is simple how many people can answer the following question: do you have the forge world index for marines?

 

You are better off using a company ancient over the chapter variant due to weapon options.  This is the one case where a drop pod is usefull you have your acient and lt in the drop pod with a 3rd dev squad and drop them in support of the 3 squads that lias brings.  Also the drop pod while it does not block shooting it does however block alot of charges.