Get Ready For Chapter Approved

[Frater Cornelius]

Considering GW gave us a spiel about playtesting this edition, and how this was "the game you wanted all along" I dare say complaining about not being given what we payed for is very much justified.

 

Complaints are only justified when they are constructive. Mocking GW for what you perceive is the lack of play-testing and cynicism is neither constructive nor helpful. If you think you know better, consider helping GW out by writing an open email to the design team or FLG. Moaning on the internet will not help the situation.

[the jeske]

You guys are worse than Dakka. Play testing never reveals all the info. There are countless things to consider that even a decently sized team will not be able to cover. Only after months with thousands of games being done all across the world can people arrive at conclusions. I am sure there is a purpose behind every change, but some may not be apparent, because they either aren't obvious or something planned for the long run. But instead you jump to conclusions without having even a fraction of the information you'd need for that. I believe that even if FLG has a significant say in the matter that they gave their best for the hobby that defines their lives. I see no malicious intent here, but it seems no matter what happens, GW can not win against the rampant, entitled whining of the internet.

 

I am not sure how closely mods are watching, but I'd thread carefully, as this has turned a discussion about the leaks into an incessant whine fest and may be subject to correction.

you know, that only depends on how much time you have to run the tests. And while I can imagine stuff like late wording change to a rule or rule removal/gain suddenly wrecking havocks in a game. There is also other stuff in 8th. You really do not have to be doing tests for years to know that, if you add save mods to the game and make everything woundable by everything and lower the save horde armies will rise up. The twin linked/re-rolls change would have to be something done in last week pre going to printing and put in place by someone who skiped the testing part, because not noticing the synergy between twin link weapons and hit/wound re-rolls is hard to explain. And don't even get me started on how FW was doing their rules packs. And to notice those things you don't need months of testing. People were using that day 1 of rules being leaked. First culexus/soup/swarm lists were there on first tournaments in 8th.

[the jeske]

 

 

Complaints are only justified when they are constructive. Mocking GW for what you perceive is the lack of play-testing and cynicism is neither constructive nor helpful. If you think you know better, consider helping GW out by writing an open email to the design team or FLG. Moaning on the internet will not help the situation.

 

Thing is this is the only thing that works, besides droping the game not buying anything[although how someone wants to play without the official rules change pack is a question I do not have an anwser for]. only GW can fix GW errors, people don't have a way to officially rewrite a codex[and yes it was tried ask any chaos played who played from 4th till end of 7th ed]. you know how to explain to a new GK player that his army that was already low tier now got a lot worse, and why the money he spend on those models is effectivlly wasted to a point where nothing he can get for his codex [including FW] can fix his factions, AND that the closest time he can expect a fix is next years rule update.

[Ficinus]

You guys are worse than Dakka. Play testing never reveals all the info. There are countless things to consider that even a decently sized team will not be able to cover. Only after months with thousands of games being done all across the world can people arrive at conclusions. I am sure there is a purpose behind every change, but some may not be apparent, because they either aren't obvious or something planned for the long run. But instead you jump to conclusions without having even a fraction of the information you'd need for that. I believe that even if FLG has a significant say in the matter that they gave their best for the hobby that defines their lives. I see no malicious intent here, but it seems no matter what happens, GW can not win against the rampant, entitled whining of the internet.

 

I am not sure how closely mods are watching, but I'd thread carefully, as this has turned a discussion about the leaks into an incessant whine fest and may be subject to correction.

This book was written, what, two to three months ago? So they have at most about three months of player data to augment their eighteen or so months of in house play testing. Ah, but they have thousands of players playing the game over those three months you say. Yes, but how many of those players are giving detailed feedback to GW? Most, I would wager, don't. I don't. Even those that do mostly complain about things they view as OP without giving detailed reports of experiences. So, how much play testing data has GW actually received over the three months or so between the release of eighth and writing of this book? Probably not that much. They've seen net lists and tournament lists and results. Is that as useful as detailed play testing? I doubt it, but who knows.

 

Edited to add: I don't think GW is malicious in doing this (though the logic behind the FW superheavy price hikes escapes me), just that they haven't play tested as extensively as they say and that this edition isn't as spectacularly balanced as folks sometimes claim.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Ficinus

[Gentlemanloser]

You guys are worse than Dakka. Play testing never reveals all the info. There are countless things to consider that even a decently sized team will not be able to cover. Only after months with thousands of games being done all across the world can people arrive at conclusions. I am sure there is a purpose behind every change, but some may not be apparent, because they either aren't obvious or something planned for the long run. But instead you jump to conclusions without having even a fraction of the information you'd need for that. I believe that even if FLG has a significant say in the matter that they gave their best for the hobby that defines their lives. I see no malicious intent here, but it seems no matter what happens, GW can not win against the rampant, entitled whining of the internet.

 

I am not sure how closely mods are watching, but I'd thread carefully, as this has turned a discussion about the leaks into an incessant whine fest and may be subject to correction.

Yeah... withing minutes of reading both my dex and ca leaks, the flaws are glaringly obvious.

 

So bad that playtesting was either non existent, or those doing the playtesting were simply terrible at it.

[Mitchverr]

I dont even know how I would go about giving GW my personal playtesting information to be honest lol.

 

I honestly doubt they are acting from a playtesting side of things, I suspect much of it is a swift hammer to fix things ignoring FAQ and to hit hard against stuff such as mortal wounds and "buff" units.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Mitchverr

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

 

Considering GW gave us a spiel about playtesting this edition, and how this was "the game you wanted all along" I dare say complaining about not being given what we payed for is very much justified.

 

Complaints are only justified when they are constructive. Mocking GW for what you perceive is the lack of play-testing and cynicism is neither constructive nor helpful. If you think you know better, consider helping GW out by writing an open email to the design team or FLG. Moaning on the internet will not help the situation.

 

"They should have spent more time on playtesting" isn't constructive?

 

You must live in a strange world.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra

[Gentlemanloser]

CA is the second DLC expansion to 8th!

 

Index was base. Codex first DLC.

 

:D

[Interrogator Stobz]

+++We are watching. The odd comments aside, please keep it on topic and as constructive as possible, especially when you have a negative opinion on some aspects of the topic+++

Carry on carefully.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Interrogator Stobz
Colour for Modness

[Withershadow]

CA is the second DLC expansion to 8th!

 

Index was base. Codex first DLC.

 

Nah, Index was the paid demo, like MGS: Ground Zero.  Now CA is launching the DLC onslaught.

 

 

 

Considering GW gave us a spiel about playtesting this edition, and how this was "the game you wanted all along" I dare say complaining about not being given what we payed for is very much justified.

 

Complaints are only justified when they are constructive. Mocking GW for what you perceive is the lack of play-testing and cynicism is neither constructive nor helpful. If you think you know better, consider helping GW out by writing an open email to the design team or FLG. Moaning on the internet will not help the situation.

This all of course sounds perfectly reasonable, but how else do you perceive RATLINGS of all things going up in cost by 40 percent?  Who was crushing it with Ratling spam?

 

And for what it's worth, moaning on the internet totally helps, considering internet moaning is the likely source of most of these changes.  FW's Facebook page is currently on fire, with hundreds of comments expressing everything from befuddlement to outrage, and I've seen FW respond that they will forward these concerns to at least a couple of dozen of them.  I'm curious to know what methodology they are using to determine what feedback to listen to, because so far they have only really gone after with a hamfisted way against things lots of people complain about (though sadly rarely with real experience to back up their assertions).  They have yet to address many flaws and oversights in the rules.  Rather than incorporating community feedback to fix their errors, they seem to only want to bring down the warhammer (no pun intended) on the most glaring issues.  After all, no one will complain about Commissars and Ynnari if no one uses Commissars and Ynnari, derp!

Edited November 27, 2017 by Withershadow

[Bryan Blaire]

GW the company knows exactly what they’re doing with this update. They are making money off of it using the same model that has infested and stricken video games; paid add ons to use a product you’ve already bought. They are getting away with it because enough people are buying into it. It will get worse from here. That is the negative I am finding with this whole thing.

 

Years ago all this stuff would be free PDF downloads or articles in a white dwarf or on the old black gobbo website. Chapter approved was a monthly magazine article introducing new, fun, and experimental rules to game modes, vehicles, and models. Now it’s behind an annual codex price book that slaps players in the face with point changes and rules to their already paid for armies.

 

I get wanting balance and progression of the game system, but this just stinks to high heaven of “they’ll pay for all this stuff we used to give away”. There’s got to be a better way, but unfortunately GW will always go towards the way that makes them the most money.

Well, technically if it was an article in White Dwarf, everyone that wanted it was paying for it - granted, there was more in the magazine, so the total cost for the articles was less (an assumption - I haven't done a comprehensive cost comparison adjusted for inflation world-wide) - but paying all the same. There also used to be collected Chapter Approved books that were published - they weren't all free PDFs, so it isn't all that much different in that respect, they just aren't published first in White Dwarf.

 

That said, if this isn't providing a value for folks, then DON'T BUY IT! That's really all there is to it, seriously. A group shouldn't need more than one of these, if they want to get it at all - the new points aren't absolutely necessary, especially if folks don't think the points adjustments are valid, and as long as everyone agrees to play with the published points from the Codexes/Indexes, there's not a problem. Same for pick-up game folks, no reason to pick up the book if the points adjustments are meaningless to you and you don't see the value in the additional material included. About the only people that might be able to argue that they shouldn't have to buy this, but may feel forced to, are those folks whose predominant game-playing is in tournaments who require every player to show up with their own copy of Chapter Approved, and even then, the counter-argument is that no one forces these individuals to game in this way, so anyone choosing this gaming method are still choosing to purchase the book to keep up their gaming.

 

Seriously though, guys, don't feel forced to buy something if it isn't worth it to you. If you DO buy it, realize that you made that choice - and if you feel this situation is a negative one for the hobby, then you contributed.

 

My suggestion is that if you have a group and you all agree that y'all need the book, go in on it together so that it doesn't cost you individually as much.

[Dulahan]

I wonder if there are any Aeldari adjustments, or if the page they're on has just been missed.

 

There's some out there.  It's how I saw the Revenant Titan went UP to 2000 points (Seriously, that's just freaking stupid!).  Changes to Corsairs as well, IIRC, and to the cost of Prism Rifles for Spectres.  Don't  know if it's up or down though.

[Laughingman]

 

I wonder if there are any Aeldari adjustments, or if the page they're on has just been missed.

 

There's some out there.  It's how I saw the Revenant Titan went UP to 2000 points (Seriously, that's just freaking stupid!).  Changes to Corsairs as well, IIRC, and to the cost of Prism Rifles for Spectres.  Don't  know if it's up or down though.

 

 

I suspect the entire exercise in making Large FW super heavy 1000+ points is to keep them out of 2000 point competitive 40k. Only a handful were truly obnoxious (Evil big bird, etc). But the point still stands they were intended for Open play/narrative/extremely large point games. Not for competitive 40K

[The Unseen]

 

 

 

 

I wonder if there are any Aeldari adjustments, or if the page they're on has just been missed.

There's some out there. It's how I saw the Revenant Titan went UP to 2000 points (Seriously, that's just freaking stupid!). Changes to Corsairs as well, IIRC, and to the cost of Prism Rifles for Spectres. Don't know if it's up or down though.

I suspect the entire exercise in making Large FW super heavy 1000+ points is to keep them out of 2000 point competitive 40k. Only a handful were truly obnoxious (Evil big bird, etc). But the point still stands they were intended for Open play/narrative/extremely large point games. Not for competitive 40K

Yeah no, that's complete bull:cuss, because they left the GW super-heavies alone entirely, which in some cases were already monumentally better than the FW options.

Gotta come up with a better reason than that, but go ahead and keep defending GW.

"Heavily playtested" my ass, these guys desperately need a basic grasp of statistical analysis.

[Brother Bish]

 

Since it's only for open play....I'm not interested at all. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I mean I love the idea to customize units like that, one of the reasons why I love playing T'au with all their weapon options and support/signature system options on battlesuits, and I'm surely looking forward to what kind of conversions people will do with those rules (you guys think a Landraider with a Vindicator cannon is possible? :D ) but if I can't use it I just can't get hyped about it. No way I'm going to play Open Play.

We do open play with points all the time where I'm at. I don't see why that freaks people out.

 

Also, there was an old Apoch datasheet with a landraider that had a demolisher in the hull. It was linked to the Dark Angels.

My Land Raider Ares, I updated it for 8th a few months ago, you can find it here:

 

http://chamber42.com/blog/archives/251

 

I'm planning on posting a Chapter Approved version, depending on if the new VDR allows it.

[DuskRaider]

 

Complaints are only justified when they are constructive. Mocking GW for what you perceive is the lack of play-testing and cynicism is neither constructive nor helpful. If you think you know better, consider helping GW out by writing an open email to the design team or FLG. Moaning on the internet will not help the situation.

 

 

So what you mean to say is, "Complaints are only justified when they align with my opinion". 

 

As much as I'm pretty pleased with how Death Guard panned out, I see many valid complaints in here and the "fixes" GW has made are heavy handed or unnecessary for many. Myself, along with many many others, expected this edition along with new management to bring with them improvements to the game itself. While some things have been improved upon, many others seem to have either stayed the same or gotten worse. The one thing Cornelius did get right is that players need to reach out to GW and voice their complaints.

Edited November 27, 2017 by DuskRaider

[Laughingman]

 

 

 

I wonder if there are any Aeldari adjustments, or if the page they're on has just been missed.

There's some out there. It's how I saw the Revenant Titan went UP to 2000 points (Seriously, that's just freaking stupid!). Changes to Corsairs as well, IIRC, and to the cost of Prism Rifles for Spectres. Don't know if it's up or down though.

I suspect the entire exercise in making Large FW super heavy 1000+ points is to keep them out of 2000 point competitive 40k. Only a handful were truly obnoxious (Evil big bird, etc). But the point still stands they were intended for Open play/narrative/extremely large point games. Not for competitive 40K

Yeah no, that's complete bull:cuss, because they left the GW super-heavies alone entirely, which in some cases were already monumentally better than the FW options.

Gotta come up with a better reason than that, but go ahead and keep defending GW.

"Heavily playtested" my ass, these guys desperately need a basic grasp of statistical analysis.

 

 

 

True enough, The Elephant in the room being Bane-blades ,Shadow-Swords, Etc that saw did not see a 500+ point increase. Never was involved in the tournament scene, how common are Imperial Guard Baneblade variants? Are they meta breaking in any capacity? Fluff wise at least Baneblade variants are reasonably  common in imperial guard service so you might see them in smaller engagements (2000 points) As compared to relic Superheavy that have been mothballed since the Horus heresy and would only be deployed be a chapter in its hour of great need. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Laughingman

[Nusquam]

 

True enough, The Elephant in the room being Bane-blades ,Shadow-Swords, Etc that saw did not see a 500+ point increase. Never was involved in the tournament scene, how common are Imperial Guard Baneblade variants? Are they meta breaking in any capacity? Fluff wise at least Baneblade variants are reasonably  common in imperial guard service so you might see them in smaller engagements (2000 points) As compared to relic Superheavy that have been mothballed since the Horus heresy and would only be deployed be a chapter in its hour of great need. 

 

 

Locally I've seen shadowswords all over the state. One guy brings 3 and just travels up and down smashing in FLGS. Another brings 3 Lord of Skulls. I kid you not.

 

ITC-wise and random events I see around have a lot of shadowswords. A lot of lists with that include Morty, Magnus, and a Lord of Skulls all in the same list as well. I swear in army pics I always see multiples of them. Shadowsword is most popular.

 

As for the "Hour of Need" I would wager a Primarch is a much more valuable asset and there is exactly one for each army. You can't apply logistics to a game that can have two Guillemans fighting each other.

 

A Fellblade would be easier to mobilize, especially when the only thing, and I mean only thing, that pulls them ahead of Baneblades/Hellhammers is that it has 8 lascannons. The Accelerator cannon is terrible and the stats increases are a wash against Regiment rules. This is the age of Cawl and technology is taking leaps. The Astreaus is more advanced too and I'm sure there will be a lot.

 

I'm holding out that the 740 we see for the Fellblade is the actual total and everything added on became 0 points and that they get a buff in the form of an Errata alongside CA. What worries me about that being potentially not true is that quad lascannons weren't listed as 0 so I could be holding out for nothing. Because I can think of no logical reason with the facts we know now to make a Fellblade 917 points without adding a Flareshield, tripling its shots, and making it 48 wounds. Which makes no sense since it should be just a Baneblade+1, not Baneblade +99.

 

We'll see

[Plaguecaster]

Yeah it really comes off like GW handed FW players a big "Screw you buy our stuff instead" as it's completly fine if someone wants to run a triple baneblade/ shadowsword list or the jerk combo of Magnus, Morty plus some random LOW as it's perfectly fine and in no ways broken but heavens forbid If want to run a single Fellblade or other FW vehicle as I'm obviously a hard core competitive player so deserve the massive price hikes to make it "fair" for other players who obviously can't handle FW units :D

[Lexington]

I suspect the entire exercise in making Large FW super heavy 1000+ points is to keep them out of 2000 point competitive 40k. Only a handful were truly obnoxious (Evil big bird, etc). But the point still stands they were intended for Open play/narrative/extremely large point games. Not for competitive 40K

I keep hearing this, and can't help but think that if this was their intent, they should say so. "Model X/Models above X number of Wounds/Model with X other defining feature cannot be used in Matched Play games of 2000pts or less" isn't hard to write or publish, and it also saves us the trouble of trying to read tea leaves to divine the Studio's rather inconsistent intent. Upping their cost, sometimes by multipliers of two or three, just makes them unappealing in every play scenario, and makes GW look like morons who can't properly write or playtest - or, worse, just hucksters who promised an attempt at balance for this edition while having no such plans in reality.

[Laughingman]

To the  posters who responded, there commentary is "enlightening" and I do understand there sentiment, the points values were rather arbitrary, and intent of them appears to be opaque. 

[Redtoof]

I think it's safe to say that whatever playtesting is done, both in studio and from 'the field', forgeworld models (with a few exceptions) get significantly less attention. I'm assuming this is GW bringing costs up so they do not risk a single forgeworld model ruining the game, with the intention of slowly bringing them into a reasonable level over time with more playtesting data.

 

It's a bit of a kick in the balls for those who used stuff that obviously wasn't overpowered (my two Forgeworld LoWs seem to have gotten away with it, but the Gargantuan Squiggoth and the Scythed Hierodule are probably just under the arbitrary 'big stuff' cut off point) but I suspect this is a genuine, ham fisted attempt at improving the game rather than a conspiracy to ruin our favourite toys.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

 

 

Complaints are only justified when they are constructive. Mocking GW for what you perceive is the lack of play-testing and cynicism is neither constructive nor helpful. If you think you know better, consider helping GW out by writing an open email to the design team or FLG. Moaning on the internet will not help the situation.

 

So what you mean to say is, "Complaints are only justified when they align with my opinion".

 

As much as I'm pretty pleased with how Death Guard panned out, I see many valid complaints in here and the "fixes" GW has made are heavy handed or unnecessary for many. Myself, along with many many others, expected this edition along with new management to bring with them improvements to the game itself. While some things have been improved upon, many others seem to have either stayed the same or gotten worse. The one thing Cornelius did get right is that players need to reach out to GW and voice their complaints.

I wonder who of both of us here is in denial. If you guys do not want to listen, fine. All I can do is try to make this more positive, spare you to agony of negativism that I know too well and try to warn you that the thread is getting off tracks, but the choice is ultimately yours.

[Panzer]

I still feel like there's some FW Apocalypse book that will update those units Datasheets looming behind those point changes.

Of course that doesn't excuse GW ignoring balance problems of their own units tho (not just LoW). Overall the execution of the CA is extremely weak even with just those leaks no matter what other stuff there's included. The point adjustments were by far the most important stuff.

 

Now I'm just hoping for the CA to fix the LoS/Cover rules but I kinda lost hope there.

[RapatoR]

... the point adjustments were by far the most important stuff...

Not for all of us. I am stoked about VDR and missions. In fact me and my gaming group have yet to play a game using points.