Robbienw Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Robbienw, do you have the page number for the bit about normal marine recruitment? I'm probably looking in the wrong place, but I can't find it. Guilliman's intentions are actually a pretty vague. Felix Decimus believes it will happen, but he is a Primaris. Guilliman's sole reference to the existence of the Primaris is to mentally refer to them as 'Cawl's blasphemous creations', which is hardly a ringing endorsement. Quite right. Felix believes this will happen, doesn't mean that is what guilliman intends to do or thinks will happen. The page numbers in the BA codex are page 23, the bit that is entitled Hope from Horror. And also on the Scouts squads page, page 54, where it says the BA currently have many scouts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4974238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 They can be reconciled. DoB ends just a few weeks after the the battle of baal is finished, 70 years into the 'Dark Imperium' era. The BA Codex goes past it another 45 years or so into the current point of the Dark Imperium era where the story is right now. So at some point after the novel ended I assume they realised it was not practical or possible to make just primaris marines and switched to making normal ones and primaris in tandem. Fairly easy to accept for me. It would have worked if we didn't have Dark Imperium novel that is pretty clear that Roboute plans to replace all of the current Space Marines with Primaris, and is not even really hiding it. Meh. At this point I will be satisfied if GW just brings some other Loyalist Primarchs back and we can finally stop having Roboute as the centre of the entire Imperial faction, because good god he can insufferable at times. Not really, as it's just the opinion of one marine in Dark Imperium who thinks this, doesn't make it true. I agree though, more loyalist primarchs see definetly needed to shake things up a bit! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4974240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 They can be reconciled. DoB ends just a few weeks after the the battle of baal is finished, 70 years into the 'Dark Imperium' era. The BA Codex goes past it another 45 years or so into the current point of the Dark Imperium era where the story is right now. So at some point after the novel ended I assume they realised it was not practical or possible to make just primaris marines and switched to making normal ones and primaris in tandem. Fairly easy to accept for me. It would have worked if we didn't have Dark Imperium novel that is pretty clear that Roboute plans to replace all of the current Space Marines with Primaris, and is not even really hiding it. Meh. At this point I will be satisfied if GW just brings some other Loyalist Primarchs back and we can finally stop having Roboute as the centre of the entire Imperial faction, because good god he can insufferable at times. Well, it's not like Guilliman has any authority over any Chapter other than the Ultramarines. He's a respected and revered figure, but it still remains that each Chapter is essentially an autonomous organisation, almost independent from the Imperium itself. If Dante doesn't want Primaris, Guilliman can't exactly force him, any more than Seth could force another Chapter to reject them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4974285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 They can be reconciled. DoB ends just a few weeks after the the battle of baal is finished, 70 years into the 'Dark Imperium' era. The BA Codex goes past it another 45 years or so into the current point of the Dark Imperium era where the story is right now. So at some point after the novel ended I assume they realised it was not practical or possible to make just primaris marines and switched to making normal ones and primaris in tandem. Fairly easy to accept for me. It would have worked if we didn't have Dark Imperium novel that is pretty clear that Roboute plans to replace all of the current Space Marines with Primaris, and is not even really hiding it. Meh. At this point I will be satisfied if GW just brings some other Loyalist Primarchs back and we can finally stop having Roboute as the centre of the entire Imperial faction, because good god he can insufferable at times. Well, it's not like Guilliman has any authority over any Chapter other than the Ultramarines. He's a respected and revered figure, but it still remains that each Chapter is essentially an autonomous organisation, almost independent from the Imperium itself. If Dante doesn't want Primaris, Guilliman can't exactly force him, any more than Seth could force another Chapter to reject them. Eh, no. That is not true at all, because Roboute is not a Primarch of Ultramarine Legion, like it was during the Great Crusade, he is Roboute, the only loyalist Primarch around, lord commander Imperial regent. He can casually destroy any chapter that doesn't follow his commands. He doesn't even need to bloody his hands doing so, all it takes for him is not to help that particular chapter. Any autonomy anyone can have here is illusionary at best. It's everyone playing big game of pretend, because to actually call things as they are would be to call Roboute borderline treasonous. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4974321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 If enough chapters question, Roboute will succeed only in splitting the Imperium in half, even he has his limits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4974354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Yep, and the last time someone tried bossing around another Chapter, the Badab War was the end result. Guilliman literally wrote the Codex Astartes to cement the independence of the Chapters from outside influence, so that one man cannot control a Legion, or do what Horus did. He's not exactly avoided making enemies within the Imperium, and there are many Chapters that are infamously independent. He can make suggestions, he can make life unpleasant for the Chapters that don't follow those suggestions, but there are highly placed people that don't exactly like what Guilliman has done, that can work against him. Remember, Guilliman is on the far side of the Rift. What's he going to do if Dante doesn't kill off the original Marines? Order around the people he put under Dante's direct control? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4974384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I’ve just finished reading this one and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I am surprised so many are getting hung up over what Guilliman said. From what I understood he was merely saying that if normal humans live in awful conditions they are more likely to give into the temptations of Chaos if promised with a better life. Hence him saying the worlds could be improved. Then you don't get the complaint. The issue is not that Roboute wants to change those worlds. The issue is that it is made EXPLICITLY clear that Dante had this capability way before Roboute told him to do it. The issue is that to portray Guilliman as a humanitarian, Dante must have spend at least a good portion of his tenure either being too stupid to notice or deliberately chosen not to do anything about it. And I don't like harming Dante's character just to prop Roboute up. That's really misrepresenting things quite a bit. We KNOW FOR A FACT that the Imperium had terraforming capabilities. Heck, Armageddon is a direct result of that. We know that Terra was improving until the Heresy broke loose. The Imperium's had the means for ten thousand years. Even if they lost some technology along the way, terraforming isn't some magical thing that happens with just a single machine. The problem is that the Imperium as it has been for millennia saw no need to make planets beautiful again. They're all about exploitation, building gigantic hive cities and what fertile planets they have, they usually use for mass-farming as agri worlds. This is a meta-civilization that hollows out worlds and cycles through workers without pity. To the higher-ups, what does it matter that living conditions are beyond harsh, as long as they get the expected results on the ledger? Similarly, Dante is neither being "too stupid to notice" nor deliberately going against it. There's not been a decision to keep things that way despite the ability to change it. If anything, there was a simple case of maintaining the status quo, because that's how it has been forever. There was even a section in Dante where he himself questions the entire thing, believing the Blood Angels to be cruel for the sake of it, before he is properly introduced to the Chapter and learning the proceedings and reasoning, the hallowed traditions of the Chapter and why they matter to them. The Blood Angels are a First Founding Chapter, with many close successors. They're a sign of stability and beauty despite harsh realities and inner turmoil. Changing the whole core principle of their recruitment, something that has been happening for ten millennia, isn't something that happens on a whim, within even years, and it'd inevitably cause friction between brothers. And despite that, he questioned. If anything, I could easily believe that Guilliman realized Dante's own turmoil on a whole range of things, and he picked up on a few of the issues in their conversation. It has very little to do with "propping Guilliman up" at the cost of putting Dante down - the ENTIRE SCENE is about Dante meeting on almost equal terms with Roboute, the latter showing him a great deal of respect while acknowledging his position, achievements and offering aid both immediate and looking to the future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4974565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogun Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Robbienw, do you have the page number for the bit about normal marine recruitment? I'm probably looking in the wrong place, but I can't find it. Guilliman's intentions are actually a pretty vague. Felix Decimus believes it will happen, but he is a Primaris. Guilliman's sole reference to the existence of the Primaris is to mentally refer to them as 'Cawl's blasphemous creations', which is hardly a ringing endorsement. Quite right. Felix believes this will happen, doesn't mean that is what guilliman intends to do or thinks will happen. The page numbers in the BA codex are page 23, the bit that is entitled Hope from Horror. And also on the Scouts squads page, page 54, where it says the BA currently have many scouts. Thanks! The Hope from Horror bit does definitely make it sound like the Scouts and the creation of Primaris are separate. That does rather beg the question as to how Primaris are created though. Do they have a scout phase at all? The new IA article in White Dwarf just gives the different implantation stages for the Primaris organs, and since the Sinew Coils and Magnificat are implanted so early on, a hypothetical Primaris scout should be considerably bigger and stronger than a normal Scout. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4974600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Yeah, there would be the same toughness and size distinction between SM scouts and a hypothetical Primaris scout-a-like, just like between a normal marine and a primaris. Nothing indicates they have go through a Scout-like training phase at this point like normal marines, just that they go straight into power armour. I guess they would start off as Intercessors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4974618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Terraforming a planet (or a planet and two moons) may have been too much of a resources sink for Dante's liking. He doesn't seems like the type to devote more resources to himself at the expense of everyone around him. Especially when his job is to protect those systems. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4974889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Good point, that. Right at the start of his novel, he also expends Chapter resources/lives to evacuate Imperial Guard and civilians, even though it was never going to help all that much against the Nids. Dante doesn't even allow himself the luxury of sleep until he's almost at breaking point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4975605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 1500 years is a long time. Maybe Dante will be written out of the story sometime soon to make way for fresh blood Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4975814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 1500 years is a long time. Maybe Dante will be written out of the story sometime soon to make way for fresh blood Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4976103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonreaper666 Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 1500 years is a long time. Maybe Dante will be written out of the story sometime soon to make way for fresh blood Who or what is going to kill him though? What is the most likely way for him to die in the plot? Abaddon can easily kill as unlike his duel with Sigismund he now has Drach'nyen Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4976257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 1500 years is a long time. Maybe Dante will be written out of the story sometime soon to make way for fresh blood Who or what is going to kill him though? What is the most likely way for him to die in the plot? Abaddon can easily kill as unlike his duel with Sigismund he now has Drach'nyen 1. Irrelevant. 2. Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4976564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonreaper666 Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 1500 years is a long time. Maybe Dante will be written out of the story sometime soon to make way for fresh bloodWho or what is going to kill him though? What is the most likely way for him to die in the plot? Abaddon can easily kill as unlike his duel with Sigismund he now has Drach'nyen 1. Irrelevant. 2. Heresy. Heresy? Just stating the facts Dante isn't Sigismund, there is a gap between their skill levels even if Sigismund is old Sigismund would have died in just seconds if Abby had his Daemon Sword The only thing that can block Drach'nyen is either the Emperor's Sword or the Blade of Antywr Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4977040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 Your proof of that being what, exactly? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4977057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogWelder Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 I think 40k has a problem with killing off old characters and creating new ones since the story is very much tied to the models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4977551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Your proof of that being what, exactly?A whole bunch of nothin. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4978876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knockagh Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Reading between the lines it looks to me that the issue here is GW central imposing storylines on authors rather than letting them write. If the last few years taught us anything it’s that imposing direction or stories on authors makes for poorer books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4984642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Good thing then that outside of the 8th narrative, which Devastation of Baal and Dark Imperium were part of, BL has given the green light to more stuff than at any point the last 5 years at the minimum. Carcharodons, Horusian Wars, Rogue Trader content, Sons of the Hydra, Fabius Bile, new Eisenhorn, there are A LOT of stories being approved now that authors got to pitch on their own. The last time we had that happen, we got plenty of classics. To complain about some narrative tie-ins being restrictive is kinda tone-deaf, seeing how few books actually fall under that now in a sea of reborn creativity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4984854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheywood Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Guy Haley has also said that with each novel the specifics were left up to him. I really doubt GW is going back to a tie-in based structure a couple years after abandoning it. Not to mention if that were happening I'd have expected them to have a bunch of Custodes short stories for release starting this past Monday, or a ton of nurgle shorts in the past month. That hasn't been the case, as far as I remember at least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4985021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I don't think any being short of a primarch coyld face current Abaddon with Drachnyen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4985289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knockagh Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Good thing then that outside of the 8th narrative, which Devastation of Baal and Dark Imperium were part of, BL has given the green light to more stuff than at any point the last 5 years at the minimum. Carcharodons, Horusian Wars, Rogue Trader content, Sons of the Hydra, Fabius Bile, new Eisenhorn, there are A LOT of stories being approved now that authors got to pitch on their own. The last time we had that happen, we got plenty of classics. To complain about some narrative tie-ins being restrictive is kinda tone-deaf, seeing how few books actually fall under that now in a sea of reborn creativity. I agree completely. I’ve been loving the BL books of recent. The freedom given to authors pays dividends in quality. I was only making a point on a select few novels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4985321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
drooling blood Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Good thing then that outside of the 8th narrative, which Devastation of Baal and Dark Imperium were part of, BL has given the green light to more stuff than at any point the last 5 years at the minimum. Carcharodons, Horusian Wars, Rogue Trader content, Sons of the Hydra, Fabius Bile, new Eisenhorn, there are A LOT of stories being approved now that authors got to pitch on their own. The last time we had that happen, we got plenty of classics. To complain about some narrative tie-ins being restrictive is kinda tone-deaf, seeing how few books actually fall under that now in a sea of reborn creativity. Apart from the RT content, theres nothing there that they didnt already do. Just rename it, people will swallow it. You have a a couple of renamed SM battle books, a few warlords of 40k. Ive got a bolter of the new millennium to sell you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341505-the-devastation-of-baal-discussion/page/11/#findComment-4994464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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