The Devastation of Baal- Discussion

[b1soul]

200 years?

 

The Indomitus Crusage only lasted 116 years IIRC

 

It could be more latent...but also more severe when it manifests

[Scribe]

 

 

 

Apparently Baal will no longer be a Deathworld. Seems like Guilliman is intent on reversing the culture of Astartes being recruited from Death Worlds in general. In fact this might mark a major shift in the culture of the Imperial itself...

 

**SPOILERS**

 

“He lifted his hand up to encompass three worlds. ‘These planets were hells. For generations we have recruited the strong over the weak, in the belief it makes our warriors better. I do not think this is so. Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better. We need to rise over the need for violence and recognise other human qualities in our recruits. Your Chapter has ever understood this. If we do not, then we will fall prey to our worst excesses, the kind of thing that that represents.’ He pointed at Ka’Bandha’s name. ‘It has long been in your capability to transform these worlds. Baal Primus is dead, but you need not let your remaining people suffer unnecessarily. Will they fight any better for dwelling on a world that kills them? By sacrificing their children to the Emperor’s service, they have earned a better life. Once you have torn that blasphemy down, raise up the population of Baal Secundus. Teach them what we are fighting for. A line must be drawn between what is good and what is evil, for if the Great Enemy comes with offers of power to a wretch, what reason does he have to refuse hell if he dwells in it already?”

 

Excerpt From: Guy Haley. “The Devastation of Baal.” iBooks. ”

 

So the implication here is that for well over a millennium Dante had the capability to terraform the worlds of Baal system, but consciously chosen not to.

 

Yo, GW. Could you perhaps not portray my favourite chapter as either being immoral, or stupid, because you want to prop up Roboute? Thanks.

Yeah, I've got a strong reaction to that blurb for a different reason. :p

 

Noblebright indeed.

[b1soul]

"Dante had the capability to terraform the worlds of Baal system, but consciously chosen not to"

 

That is actually really Grimdark

[Ogun]

I wonder if it ever even occurred to Dante to try though. He becomes chapter master 9000 years after Sanguinus's death and his expectations are shaped by that very society. If he even did think about it, he might well question his own thinking. 'Who am I to second guess my predecessors?' and 'what might the knock on effects be? By doing this would we lose some key element that makes us Blood Angels?'

[Blindhamster]

yeah i highly doubt it was ever a conscious thought, most marines actively choose to recruit from deathworlds and the like, because it makes "stronger" or "tougher" candidates. BA are no different.

Nothing shocking about it.

I for one am interested to see how Baal might be described in the codex (considering the end of Devastation of Baal is 46 years before "current" timeline)

[Marshal Rohr]

The Catachan and Flesh Tearers are gonna be sooooo pissed. 

[DarkChaplain]

Why would they be? Amit chose Cretacia deliberately as their homeworld, after experiencing the terrors it had to throw at them and iirc blowing up a volcano. Catachans pride themselves on their jungle expertise, to the point where Straken for example is disappointed at anything less on his campaigns.

[Scribe]

Why would they be? Amit chose Cretacia deliberately as their homeworld, after experiencing the terrors it had to throw at them and iirc blowing up a volcano. Catachans pride themselves on their jungle expertise, to the point where Straken for example is disappointed at anything less on his campaigns.

 

Because that blurb says 'you guys are doing it wrong'?

[Sandlemad]

To be honest the Blood Angels are one of the few chapters I could see caring about making a world under their suzerainty into a better place for folks to live. All that compelling 'strive to improve ourselves' stuff.

 

If Guilliman had said to the wolves that they could/should raise Fenris out of savagery, they would have laughed in his face. Same for the Flesh Tearers. Dante at least might feel slightly conflicted about it.

[Marshal Rohr]

The point about selecting from Death world aspirants isn’t so much about being hard just to be hard, it’s about naturally using environment to weed out genetic defects that come from modern amenities. Things like peanut allergies, diabetes, and gluten intolerance won’t exist in a hunter gather society.

[Scribe]

Gluten Intolerance....I'm crying here.

[DogWelder]

The point about selecting from Death world aspirants isn’t so much about being hard just to be hard, it’s about naturally using environment to weed out genetic defects that come from modern amenities. Things like peanut allergies, diabetes, and gluten intolerance won’t exist in a hunter gather society.

 

Recruiting from civilized worlds:

 

A bunch of elite cadets fresh from the best military academies of a hyper-civilized world, who have been specifically trained (probably even genetically engineered before birth) from the day of their birth so that they would be the best candidates for a Chapter.

 

Recruiting from Death Worlds:

 

Some malnourished, stunted (and probably inbred with a host of genetic diseases due to the extremely small population size) boys who probably have 15 different parasites in their body and have subsisted on a diet of grass and rotten animal carcasses for the entirety of their lives.

[TheRealMcCagh]

 

The point about selecting from Death world aspirants isn’t so much about being hard just to be hard, it’s about naturally using environment to weed out genetic defects that come from modern amenities. Things like peanut allergies, diabetes, and gluten intolerance won’t exist in a hunter gather society.

 

Recruiting from civilized worlds:

 

A bunch of elite cadets fresh from the best military academies of a hyper-civilized world, who have been specifically trained from the day of their birth so that they would be the best candidates for a Chapter.

 

Recruiting from Death Worlds:

 

Some malnourished, stunted (and probably inbred with a host of genetic diseases due to the extremely small population size) boys who probably have 15 different parasites in their body and have subsisted on a diet of grass and rotten animal carcasses for the entirety of their lives.

 

 

As a counter point:

 

Who is going to keep a level head when their Captain's head just turned into a canoe and their friends bleeding out next to them? Some posh academy cadet with a trust fund, or that scrawny, malnourished kid who has already seen stuff or lived through similar hardship? Gene seed can take care of muscle mass and parasites

[Scribe]

 

The point about selecting from Death world aspirants isn’t so much about being hard just to be hard, it’s about naturally using environment to weed out genetic defects that come from modern amenities. Things like peanut allergies, diabetes, and gluten intolerance won’t exist in a hunter gather society.

 

Recruiting from civilized worlds:

 

A bunch of elite cadets fresh from the best military academies of a hyper-civilized world, who have been specifically trained (probably even genetically engineered before birth) from the day of their birth so that they would be the best candidates for a Chapter.

 

Recruiting from Death Worlds:

 

Some malnourished, stunted (and probably inbred with a host of genetic diseases due to the extremely small population size) boys who probably have 15 different parasites in their body and have subsisted on a diet of grass and rotten animal carcasses for the entirety of their lives.

 

 

 

How much do you think remains of a child, turned into a monstrous post human??? 

 

I mean the Blood Angel recruit->marine story flat out contradicts your point anyway.

[FirstSonofHorus]

The fact that the debate continues reflects well on the story told. It shows why it remained unchanged and why it is suggested to be changed. 

[Sandlemad]

Regardless of how much sense it makes in terms of genetics/physiology, chapters recruit from death worlds because:

 

(i) they're ossified monastic orders following up to ten millennia of tradition and ritual about where they recruit from

 

and

 

(ii) they adhere to unscientific culturally-specific beliefs about what is required in their candidates (cf. the British Empire's ideas about martial races)

 

Physiology and genetics (or a speculative version of genetics) do come into it for things like Fenrisian recruits and the canis helix, but it's not the main deal. In the 41st millennium you don't develop your warrior order of fanatics on purely rational, logical chains of decisions.

[carlisimo]

What's what?  The Imperium has had the resources to improve impoverished planets all along, rather than hanging on for dear life by feeding all their production into endlesswars?  And they can get those resources to Baal despite the whole Dark Imperium thing?  Does the Cicatrix mean nothing?

[1ncarnadine]

How much do you think remains of a child, turned into a monstrous post human???

 

I mean the Blood Angel recruit->marine story flat out contradicts your point anyway.

Apparently enough remains, or the Blood Angels themselves wouldn't still extensively test for character, and any old rad kid who's pulled himself up by his boot straps through the trials would do.

 

And where did someone get the idea the "civilized world" recruits would be "posh cadets with trust funds?" I don't think trust funds have a place in this discussion.

 

I think that kind of recruit that DogWelder has in mind would be a lot more likely to have been treated as Imperial property from the beginning of their life and basically have no choices.

[Karthak]

In the 41st millennium you don't develop your warrior order of fanatics on purely rational, logical chains of decisions.

Unless you're Roboute Guilliman.

 

Man, imagine some poor Ultramarines successor Chapter that's as obsessed with their legacy as, say, the Genesis Chapter. They're recruiting from your typical death world, and think that's just fine, and traditional and stuff. Then Guilliman returns, and they're f***ing overjoyed. After years and years they finally get to meet him, and it's everything they've ever dreamed about...and then he says, "by the way, I've been reading up on your Chapter, and there's some advice I'd like to offer..."

 

Imagine thinking that you're upholding a proud warrior legacy in a way that honours your forebears, and then your ultimate forebear comes back and tells you this is really inefficient and here's a list of improvements you should put into action pronto (though Roboute would obviously phrase it in a more diplomatic fashion). What a kick to the nuts that would be.

[DogWelder]

 

In the 41st millennium you don't develop your warrior order of fanatics on purely rational, logical chains of decisions.

Unless you're Roboute Guilliman.

 

Man, imagine some poor Ultramarines successor Chapter that's as obsessed with their legacy as, say, the Genesis Chapter. They're recruiting from your typical death world, and think that's just fine, and traditional and stuff. Then Guilliman returns, and they're f***ing overjoyed. After years and years they finally get to meet him, and it's everything they've ever dreamed about...and then he says, "by the way, I've been reading up on your Chapter, and there's some advice I'd like to offer..."

 

Imagine thinking that you're upholding a proud warrior legacy in a way that honours your forebears, and then your ultimate forebear comes back and tells you this is really inefficient and here's a list of improvements you should put into action pronto (though Roboute would obviously phrase it in a more diplomatic fashion). What a kick to the nuts that would be.

 

 

If I recall correctly, the Genesis Chapter Homeworld of Newfound is a civilized world they developed and colonized after they took it back from the Word Bearers during the Shadow Crusade.

 

Hmmm you all have a point guys. I suppose its a matter of preference then, as we have extremely good quality marines coming from both Death Worlds and Civilized Worlds. Still prefer Civilized worlds but it's a personal thing I guess. 

[Marshal Rohr]

I think we should start a 'Merits of Death Worlds' thread to continue the discussion.

[Sete]

The fauna and flora.

[b1soul]

The point about selecting from Death world aspirants isn’t so much about being hard just to be hard, it’s about naturally using environment to weed out genetic defects that come from modern amenities. Things like peanut allergies, diabetes, and gluten intolerance won’t exist in a hunter gather society.

You could weed out those defects via artificial program as well, and minimize the deaths of many suitable aspirants and many who would make fine serfs/auxilia/PDF

 

There's pros and cons to either approach, but if you're goal is to mass-produce Astartes, a UM-style recruitment process is probably optimal. UM were the largest legion with the strongest mini-empire (though not sure how many worlds within old Ultramar they recruited from). Probably why efficiency-obsessed UM did not go the Deathworld route, which tends to waste a large portion of the candidate pool.

 

Seems that Guilliman wants the BA to create a similar stronghold in Imperium Nihilus, and Dante understands the need.

 

Gabriel Seth thinks Guilliman is a hypocritical usurper who will wipe out the BA's soul. Honestly, this sets up an interesting story in and of itself.

 

I also agree that the SW would ignore any sort of suggestion in this vein from Guilliman. Guilliman probably wouldn't even try with them.

[Marshal Rohr]

You're missing the point entirely. We aren't saying its one or the other, its a cultural thing. We're saying Guilliman's method works, but doesnt work for everyone and vice versa. Just because the Imperium can terraform a world, doesn't mean it should and the new fluff of Guilliman coming in and terraforming the Legion Homeworlds many people REALLY, REALLY like is pretty :cuss up on Guy Haley's part. It's like if some new author came in and made the North in Game of Thrones a tropical paradise, or turned Coruscant into a prairie world. It's part of the appeal of Blood Angels, and Baal has been a deathworld since Second Edition, don't :cuss with it just to :cuss with it. 

[Scribe]

You're missing the point entirely. We aren't saying its one or the other, its a cultural thing. We're saying Guilliman's method works, but doesnt work for everyone and vice versa. Just because the Imperium can terraform a world, doesn't mean it should and the new fluff of Guilliman coming in and terraforming the Legion Homeworlds many people REALLY, REALLY like is pretty up on Guy Haley's part. It's like if some new author came in and made the North in Game of Thrones a tropical paradise, or turned Coruscant into a prairie world. It's part of the appeal of Blood Angels, and Baal has been a deathworld since Second Edition, don't with it just to with it. 

 

I trust it didnt happen, was just a thought? To illustrate Rob's myopic views?