The Devastation of Baal- Discussion

[caladancid]

 

 

There are some cool ideas, but it still smacks of Spiritual Liege-ness too much for my taste.

 

If the Lion returned first, would he go around telling all Astartes to get their robes on and hunt monsters in the forests?

 

“But we don’t have forests. We’re a desert world.”

“So terrascape and grow some, you imbeciles!”

 

If Russ came back first, would he go around telling all the Chapters to specifically ignore the Codex and stuff?

 

The Faction nuances and variances are one of the great aspects of 40k. This does not ease my worries of Homogenized Primaris in different colors.

 

I am not sure if people (not just you) who are saying this have actually read the book yet.  There is NO sign that the Blood Angels are becoming more like the UM, any more than they already are superhumans in power armor.  Do they have Primaris? Yes.  Do the UM have Primaris? Yes.  After that....quite different.

 

I encourage anyone who is saying how bad this idea is to actually READ the novel.  You may read summaries, or whatever, but I can assure you that summaries on a forum are not exactly the same as reading the novel by the person who does it for a living.

 

Dante and then this book have made the BA backstory and current 'flavor' so much more developed.  No chance at all the universe is becoming more homogenous.

 

 

The issue is not that the Blood Angels became more like Ultramarines in this novel, the issue is how fundamentally defining the flaws are for their cultural aspects.

 

I like Blood Angels. I don't like the idea of the Blood Angels being sanitised to have one of their defining characteristics removed. Without the Rage and the Thirst, Blood Angels are narratively dimished, and yes, the universe is becoming more homogenous.

 

I was actually defending the concept of Primaris marines, but if this is the way it's going to go, I'm going to have to side with the critics of the concept.

 

 

I understand your point, I think I just see it differently.  The procession of Dante into the chamber of other Chapter Masters and captains, along with his discussion with Seth about Amit's Reliquary have just raised the Blood Angels to a new level for me.

 

I, probably just like you, really like the Flaw and all that goes with it.  Despite some implications that could be taken to mean that Flaw is diminished (or even almost gone), I just don't see that happening. I will reserve judgment until we see the codex and the fluff that I assume will come after the Devastation of Baal.

 

In the meantime, the Blood Angels have taken on a new role for me.  A chapter (and successors) trying to achieve beauty in a galaxy that is more than ever ugly and out to get them.  That, to me, is just an interesting as the Flaw.  I totally get that people might place a higher importance on the Flaw and its current uncertain impact, but man. Just try to read those parts of the novel where Haley talks about the Blood Angels' magnificence without actually getting all the feels.

[MrDarth151]

 

 

 

There are some cool ideas, but it still smacks of Spiritual Liege-ness too much for my taste.

 

If the Lion returned first, would he go around telling all Astartes to get their robes on and hunt monsters in the forests?

 

“But we don’t have forests. We’re a desert world.”

“So terrascape and grow some, you imbeciles!”

 

If Russ came back first, would he go around telling all the Chapters to specifically ignore the Codex and stuff?

 

The Faction nuances and variances are one of the great aspects of 40k. This does not ease my worries of Homogenized Primaris in different colors.

 

I am not sure if people (not just you) who are saying this have actually read the book yet.  There is NO sign that the Blood Angels are becoming more like the UM, any more than they already are superhumans in power armor.  Do they have Primaris? Yes.  Do the UM have Primaris? Yes.  After that....quite different.

 

I encourage anyone who is saying how bad this idea is to actually READ the novel.  You may read summaries, or whatever, but I can assure you that summaries on a forum are not exactly the same as reading the novel by the person who does it for a living.

 

Dante and then this book have made the BA backstory and current 'flavor' so much more developed.  No chance at all the universe is becoming more homogenous.

 

 

The issue is not that the Blood Angels became more like Ultramarines in this novel, the issue is how fundamentally defining the flaws are for their cultural aspects.

 

I like Blood Angels. I don't like the idea of the Blood Angels being sanitised to have one of their defining characteristics removed. Without the Rage and the Thirst, Blood Angels are narratively dimished, and yes, the universe is becoming more homogenous.

 

I was actually defending the concept of Primaris marines, but if this is the way it's going to go, I'm going to have to side with the critics of the concept.

 

 

I understand your point, I think I just see it differently.  The procession of Dante into the chamber of other Chapter Masters and captains, along with his discussion with Seth about Amit's Reliquary have just raised the Blood Angels to a new level for me.

 

I, probably just like you, really like the Flaw and all that goes with it.  Despite some implications that could be taken to mean that Flaw is diminished (or even almost gone), I just don't see that happening. I will reserve judgment until we see the codex and the fluff that I assume will come after the Devastation of Baal.

 

In the meantime, the Blood Angels have taken on a new role for me.  A chapter (and successors) trying to achieve beauty in a galaxy that is more than ever ugly and out to get them.  That, to me, is just an interesting as the Flaw.  I totally get that people might place a higher importance on the Flaw and its current uncertain impact, but man. Just try to read those parts of the novel where Haley talks about the Blood Angels' magnificence without actually getting all the feels.

 

 

For the record: I am not arguing that the novel is bad. That, I feel, is the mistake people do when they listen to me complain about things I don't like: I never judge a work solely on the merit of those.

 

I adored Haley's Dante, and I suspect I will love this book too, when I get to reading it, but I am entirely capable of liking a book, and despising specific aspects of it.

 

Like the flaw being removed off-screen by a :cussing Mechanicum adept. For :cusss sake, I'm not even entirely against removing the dual flaws of Sanguinius from the chapters. It's the off-handed manner of it that pisses me off.

 

If you want to remove the flaws from the Blood Angels, make a story of it. Tell an epic tale, instead of just dropping it like that. "Oh, by the way, Cawl fixed Red Thirst and Black Rage" is a really poor way to handle that.

 

And refuse, I repeat, refuse, having Roboute lecture Dante of all people on morality. It will never stop pissing me off that BL seems to be incapable of proper narrative balance instead of blatantly sacrificing qualities of one character to prop up another. It sets my teeth on edge.

[caladancid]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are some cool ideas, but it still smacks of Spiritual Liege-ness too much for my taste.

 

If the Lion returned first, would he go around telling all Astartes to get their robes on and hunt monsters in the forests?

 

“But we don’t have forests. We’re a desert world.”

“So terrascape and grow some, you imbeciles!”

 

If Russ came back first, would he go around telling all the Chapters to specifically ignore the Codex and stuff?

 

The Faction nuances and variances are one of the great aspects of 40k. This does not ease my worries of Homogenized Primaris in different colors.

I am not sure if people (not just you) who are saying this have actually read the book yet. There is NO sign that the Blood Angels are becoming more like the UM, any more than they already are superhumans in power armor. Do they have Primaris? Yes. Do the UM have Primaris? Yes. After that....quite different.

 

I encourage anyone who is saying how bad this idea is to actually READ the novel. You may read summaries, or whatever, but I can assure you that summaries on a forum are not exactly the same as reading the novel by the person who does it for a living.

 

Dante and then this book have made the BA backstory and current 'flavor' so much more developed. No chance at all the universe is becoming more homogenous.

The issue is not that the Blood Angels became more like Ultramarines in this novel, the issue is how fundamentally defining the flaws are for their cultural aspects.

 

I like Blood Angels. I don't like the idea of the Blood Angels being sanitised to have one of their defining characteristics removed. Without the Rage and the Thirst, Blood Angels are narratively dimished, and yes, the universe is becoming more homogenous.

 

I was actually defending the concept of Primaris marines, but if this is the way it's going to go, I'm going to have to side with the critics of the concept.

I understand your point, I think I just see it differently. The procession of Dante into the chamber of other Chapter Masters and captains, along with his discussion with Seth about Amit's Reliquary have just raised the Blood Angels to a new level for me.

 

I, probably just like you, really like the Flaw and all that goes with it. Despite some implications that could be taken to mean that Flaw is diminished (or even almost gone), I just don't see that happening. I will reserve judgment until we see the codex and the fluff that I assume will come after the Devastation of Baal.

 

In the meantime, the Blood Angels have taken on a new role for me. A chapter (and successors) trying to achieve beauty in a galaxy that is more than ever ugly and out to get them. That, to me, is just an interesting as the Flaw. I totally get that people might place a higher importance on the Flaw and its current uncertain impact, but man. Just try to read those parts of the novel where Haley talks about the Blood Angels' magnificence without actually getting all the feels.

For the record: I am not arguing that the novel is bad. That, I feel, is the mistake people do when they listen to me complain about things I don't like: I never judge a work solely on the merit of those.

 

I adored Haley's Dante, and I suspect I will love this book too, when I get to reading it, but I am entirely capable of liking a book, and despising specific aspects of it.

 

Like the flaw being removed off-screen by a :cussing Mechanicum adept. For :cusss sake, I'm not even entirely against removing the dual flaws of Sanguinius from the chapters. It's the off-handed manner of it that pisses me off.

 

If you want to remove the flaws from the Blood Angels, make a story of it. Tell an epic tale, instead of just dropping it like that. "Oh, by the way, Cawl fixed Red Thirst and Black Rage" is a really poor way to handle that.

 

And refuse, I repeat, refuse, having Roboute lecture Dante of all people on morality. It will never stop pissing me off that BL seems to be incapable of proper narrative balance instead of blatantly sacrificing qualities of one character to prop up another. It sets my teeth on edge.

I agree with what you are saying. I think what you are saying definitely makes sense.

 

I do not think the novel comes off in the way you are describing. RG seems to have massive respect for Dante. Not lecturing at all.

[MrDarth151]

 

 

 

 

 

There are some cool ideas, but it still smacks of Spiritual Liege-ness too much for my taste.

 

If the Lion returned first, would he go around telling all Astartes to get their robes on and hunt monsters in the forests?

 

“But we don’t have forests. We’re a desert world.”

“So terrascape and grow some, you imbeciles!”

 

If Russ came back first, would he go around telling all the Chapters to specifically ignore the Codex and stuff?

 

The Faction nuances and variances are one of the great aspects of 40k. This does not ease my worries of Homogenized Primaris in different colors.

I am not sure if people (not just you) who are saying this have actually read the book yet. There is NO sign that the Blood Angels are becoming more like the UM, any more than they already are superhumans in power armor. Do they have Primaris? Yes. Do the UM have Primaris? Yes. After that....quite different.

 

I encourage anyone who is saying how bad this idea is to actually READ the novel. You may read summaries, or whatever, but I can assure you that summaries on a forum are not exactly the same as reading the novel by the person who does it for a living.

 

Dante and then this book have made the BA backstory and current 'flavor' so much more developed. No chance at all the universe is becoming more homogenous.

The issue is not that the Blood Angels became more like Ultramarines in this novel, the issue is how fundamentally defining the flaws are for their cultural aspects.

 

I like Blood Angels. I don't like the idea of the Blood Angels being sanitised to have one of their defining characteristics removed. Without the Rage and the Thirst, Blood Angels are narratively dimished, and yes, the universe is becoming more homogenous.

 

I was actually defending the concept of Primaris marines, but if this is the way it's going to go, I'm going to have to side with the critics of the concept.

I understand your point, I think I just see it differently. The procession of Dante into the chamber of other Chapter Masters and captains, along with his discussion with Seth about Amit's Reliquary have just raised the Blood Angels to a new level for me.

 

I, probably just like you, really like the Flaw and all that goes with it. Despite some implications that could be taken to mean that Flaw is diminished (or even almost gone), I just don't see that happening. I will reserve judgment until we see the codex and the fluff that I assume will come after the Devastation of Baal.

 

In the meantime, the Blood Angels have taken on a new role for me. A chapter (and successors) trying to achieve beauty in a galaxy that is more than ever ugly and out to get them. That, to me, is just an interesting as the Flaw. I totally get that people might place a higher importance on the Flaw and its current uncertain impact, but man. Just try to read those parts of the novel where Haley talks about the Blood Angels' magnificence without actually getting all the feels.

For the record: I am not arguing that the novel is bad. That, I feel, is the mistake people do when they listen to me complain about things I don't like: I never judge a work solely on the merit of those.

 

I adored Haley's Dante, and I suspect I will love this book too, when I get to reading it, but I am entirely capable of liking a book, and despising specific aspects of it.

 

Like the flaw being removed off-screen by a :cussing Mechanicum adept. For :cusss sake, I'm not even entirely against removing the dual flaws of Sanguinius from the chapters. It's the off-handed manner of it that pisses me off.

 

If you want to remove the flaws from the Blood Angels, make a story of it. Tell an epic tale, instead of just dropping it like that. "Oh, by the way, Cawl fixed Red Thirst and Black Rage" is a really poor way to handle that.

 

And refuse, I repeat, refuse, having Roboute lecture Dante of all people on morality. It will never stop pissing me off that BL seems to be incapable of proper narrative balance instead of blatantly sacrificing qualities of one character to prop up another. It sets my teeth on edge.

I agree with what you are saying. I think what you are saying definitely makes sense.

 

I do not think the novel comes off in the way you are describing. RG seems to have massive respect for Dante. Not lecturing at all.

 

 

He literally states that Dante had the capability to turn all of Baal into paradises all along and that the worlds have been "Hells". He makes it clear that there is no benefit to it what so ever.

 

Dante has consciously chosen to keep people of Baal suffering for the last thirteen centuries for no reason at all. Sanguinius chosen to keep his people suffering for no reason at all. Does that sound like something either man would have done to you?

 

I don't like those implications. It seems to me like making Blood Angels into a straw man so that Roboute can come off as a noble reformator that comes to enlighten people who are just so lost without him. 

 

Frankly, it makes me desperately yearn for more Loyalist Primarchs just so everyone can stop fawning over Roboute so much.

[caladancid]

I suppose I just think the overall tone of the encounter is one of near equals.

[pandion40]

Yea Guilliman definitely doesn’t talk down to Dante at all. Seems to have a lot of genuine respect for him and the BA. He even acknowledged in the speech to Dante that the BA have always understood that a warrior needs other qualities than simple toughness. He just wants them to take it further.

 

This is a very good Novel I really enjoyed it, but the way it ended left a lot of potential for GW to wow me or really disappoint me. For example Baal is one of the worst places to live in the imperium, BA coming from such a hell hole is really cool, we need something equally cool to replace it, I don’t want another ultramar, Terra or hive city planet. I want something unique and different, something that will inspire awe in everyone who sees it. I want the pilgrims who come to sanguineous planet to be awestruck when they arrive. There’s lots of stuff left open like this at the end of the book and for me it depends on where GW takes it in the future, our codex will be the beginning of that, but I think we’ll have to wait longer for a clear picture of where BA and 40k in general are going. GW is putting so much time and effort at the moment into getting each army a codex ASAP that other aspects of the company are going very slowly.

 

Lastly I actually like the idea of the Primaris but if they continue to not have the flaws that’ll turn me against them, I love the balance the Blood Angels have between their angelic side and the flaws, that’s why the BA’s successors leave me cold, they don’t have that same balance. I’ve little interest in the Flesh Tearers or those chapters who completely deny the flaws. Though I do like Seth.

[Plaguecaster]

Haven't the BA and their successors been actively searching for a cure to the flaw ever since their Primarch was slain???? I don't see the problem with curing the flaw (chances are it's temporary) as most of the different legion flaws only manifested later down the track I see no reason why someone like Cawl who is copying the Emperors work in creating marines couldn't make a perfect subject at the start which may degrade excatly like certain legions did over time

[MrDarth151]

Haven't the BA and their successors been actively searching for a cure to the flaw ever since their Primarch was slain????

 

Yes. They were. Which is why if you wanted them to cure it, they should have been ones to find it. Not Cawl, in a off-screen moment that gets a total of two paragraphs of acknowledgement in the story.

 

Actually, would have been an excellent bonding trip for Blood Angels and their Primaris counter-parts.

 

I suppose I just think the overall tone of the encounter is one of near equals.

 

And I agree on overall tone. But the comparison I like is that of a meal: Imagine that you are eating an excellent soup, and you find a dead fly in it. Does it sour your enjoyment of otherwise excellent meal?

 

That, now that is exactly how I feel about scenes like that.

[pandion40]

 

Haven't the BA and their successors been actively searching for a cure to the flaw ever since their Primarch was slain????

 

 

Yes. They were. Which is why if you wanted them to cure it, they should have been ones to find it. Not Cawl, in a off-screen moment that gets a total of two paragraphs of acknowledgement in the story.

 

Actually, would have been an excellent bonding trip for Blood Angels and their Primaris counter-parts.

 

I suppose I just think the overall tone of the encounter is one of near equals.

 

 

And I agree on overall tone. But the comparison I like is that of a meal: Imagine that you are eating an excellent soup, and you find a dead fly in it. Does it sour your enjoyment of otherwise excellent meal?

 

That, now that is exactly how I feel about scenes like that.

I think the cure is temporary, my opinion is GW wants to introduce the Primaris to all SM armies but to properly fit BA Primaris with the flaws into our codex would require new options and units, these would require models and GW doesn’t have the time to do that at the moment with the breakneck speed of codex realese. So they’ll come in as generic Primaris and We’ll get new options and units some time after all the codexes are out.

 

I’d also guess that as the wolves are the last SM codex they are the most likely to arrive with new Primaris options and units. Plus the wolves are almost as bad as the ultramarines when it comes to being GW’s special little darlings, though at least their fluff is better.

 

And as to that scene there was no fly in my soup, I had no problems with it at all, but if you do that’s fine, this board would be boring if we all agreed,

[Plaguecaster]

 

 

Haven't the BA and their successors been actively searching for a cure to the flaw ever since their Primarch was slain????

Yes. They were. Which is why if you wanted them to cure it, they should have been ones to find it. Not Cawl, in a off-screen moment that gets a total of two paragraphs of acknowledgement in the story.

 

Actually, would have been an excellent bonding trip for Blood Angels and their Primaris counter-parts.

I suppose I just think the overall tone of the encounter is one of near equals.

And I agree on overall tone. But the comparison I like is that of a meal: Imagine that you are eating an excellent soup, and you find a dead fly in it. Does it sour your enjoyment of otherwise excellent meal?

 

That, now that is exactly how I feel about scenes like that.

Was it actually stated Cawl fully cured the legion flaw with absolutely no way of it ever coming back as the Blood Angels flaw only really reared its ugly head once the Angel was slain what's to stop it from coming back after all the Emperor thought he did a great job only for it to backfire later down the track

[b1soul]

@pandion40

 

"Plus the wolves are almost as bad as the ultramarines when it comes to being GW’s special little darlings, though at least their fluff is better."

 

Indeed...though I would say the SW also have a larger and more vocal fanbase than the UM and strike me as more "special".

 

UM haven't really been GW's special snowflakes in recent times.

 

Sure, the UM are more marketable to a general audience and High Lords of Nottingham have chosen Roboute Guilliman to return as he's the most organisationally adept loyalist primarch and easy to market...that's about it. Just a matter of GW desire to reach a wider audience.

 

That said, the fluff hasn't especially favoured the UM since the days of Ward. In-universe, the UM have had their fair share of hardships and failures, and they perform no better and no worse than their cousins.

[Phoebus]

Speaking for myself, I'm thrilled that Haley has raised the topic of what Chapter worlds are like and what their owners think they should be like.

 

The idea of the Death World - that is, a place where conditions are so harsh that they breed a better warrior-candidate - is not new. At least since the 1960s, Frank Herbert described how the Padishah Emperor used Salusa Secundus to train and indoctrinate his infamous Sardaukar terror troops, and how Arrakis accidentally served a similar purpose for the Fremen, in his Dune novels.

 

Herbert's work informs how I feel about parallels to it in this setting. That is to say, I'm not so much worried about applying our own values and priorities on the Sanguinius or Dante choosing to maintain Baal Secundus as a Death World as I am about their choice being apropos to their situation and the setting.

 

Using Dune again as an example, the Sardaukar were brainwashed into accepting the hellish conditions of Salusa Secundus as a pre-requisite to being inducted into a warrior elite, which in turn justified the luxuries they enjoyed. The Fremen, as well, cherished Arrakis and their way of life; they recognized what a deadly place it was, but also recognized that it shaped their culture, which in turn made them fierce, proud, deadly people. Paul Atreides, the renegade son of a betrayed Duke, recognizes the value of both the environment and the product. When he and the Fremen subsequently defeat the Padishah Emperor, he makes it clear that at least some of Arrakis will stay as it is in order to ensure that his people never become soft. Paul's mindset is both utterly ruthless and pragmatic by our standards, but in no way malicious. He certainly is not a stupid person.

 

Shifting to the Warhammer 40k universe, the Baalite humans faced environmental challenges of a similar scale to those of the Fremen and the Sardaukar. It is not inconceivable that Sanguinius, who was raised on that planet and was held up to be a messianic figure, would find value in the hardships and danger his adopted homeworld posed to human beings. The Baalite warrior tradition served the IX Legion well during the Great Crusade, and it's not like the Heresy or the Scouring afforded them an opportunity to terraform their homeworld appropriately. More to the point, the increasing paranoia and darkness of the Imperium of Man probably had a profound impact on the First- and Second Founding Chapters: seeing the reversals of so much of what the Emperor championed, the subsequent Chapter Masters likely looked inward, to their own Legions' values and those of their adopted worlds. Ten millennia of war will have done little to disabuse them of that notion.

 

The flip side, of course, is that being born in a Death World or a Feral World isn't a pre-requisite for becoming an excellent warrior or a viable Space Marine candidate. While this isn't explicitly stated in the lore, it nonetheless has been alluded to for quite some time. To begin with, we know that, the occasional aberration or specific experiments (e.g., Cursed Founding) aside, gene-seed will make a man superhuman in mind, spirit, and body regardless of his origins. This is as true for the son of a Death World like Baal as it is for the product of a Hive World like Necromunda. Furthermore, the protagonists in one of the earliest novels in the setting, Space Marine, start life as a modern primitive thug with barely discernible speech patterns, a reclusive tech-savvy under-hiver, and a haughty, nigh-psychopathic aristocrat moonlighting as a murderous gangster. Additionally, the most recent Dark Angels fiction reminds us that their recruits are brainwashed to the point of memory loss, so it's questionable to what extent their socio-cultural and environmental background serves them. Haley is thus well within his rights to write a story that overtly references all of the above.

 

Thus, when Haley has Guilliman make the argument that Death Worlds are neither necessary nor beneficial, he's not doing so from a vacuum. Sure, Guilliman has a bias toward his own preferred system (planets with well-organized, highly-disciplined societies whose industry directly sustains the Chapter and whose population effectively worship their Space Marine masters), but he's not wrong in saying a Death World is not optimal. And so, at the risk of sounding rude, when someone says something along the lines of, "How dare Guilliman criticize Dante for Baal," (and I'm not just picking on MrDarth151; this is a common enough reaction), that just strikes me as a knee-jerk reaction informed by the game's factionalism more so than the setting itself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Haley telling a story wherein Guilliman presents his personal philosophy regarding the universe he inhabits.

 

Now, is Guilliman right or wrong in his estimation of worlds like Baal and the value in them being the way they are? That's up for debate, but I think it's worth remembering that not everyone is Warhammer 40k gets to be right... or should be. Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Haley telling a story that showcases Guilliman's personal philosophy. Quite the contrary, we could use more of that.

[Felix Antipodes]

Yet to read (waiting on arrival of dead tree version) but can't see how Cawl could remove the black rage. The red thirst was a flaw of the BA geneseed and around since before the HH, so that could be removed. The black rage though is a psychic phenomena created by the death of Sanguinius at the hands of Horus and not directly related to their geneseed (although I could make an argument that the psychic backlash altered the geneseed from that point onwards).

If Cawl is working with the original geneseed, as implied in Dark Imperium, then it's possible that source hadn't been affected by the psychic backlash.

[b1soul]

Has Cawl really, really removed the Flaw...or are we being set up for something even worse?

[pandion40]

Thanks Phoebus you said it much more eloquently than I did. Perhaps part of the reason I’m not offended is while I do resent the over exposure of the ultramarines that resentment is directed at GW, I quite like the Ultramarines background and think RG is the best Primarch to bring back first.

 

The other reason is I long ago realised the BA could improve the lives of those on Baal but chose not to, this is 40k, Dante Is one of the most noble people in the setting but necessity has forced him to do many thing he wouldn’t want to do. Plus by this time Baal has been a hell hole for over 10,000 years, it’s a massive part of their identity I don’t blame Dante for not improving things there. One of the Angels graces is forgiveness, not of your enemy but of yourself for some of the things you’ll have to do as a BA.

 

It sometimes does take an outsider to see something about you or your situation that’s so ingrained in you that you don’t see it.

[pandion40]

@pandion40

"Plus the wolves are almost as bad as the ultramarines when it comes to being GW’s special little darlings, though at least their fluff is better."

Indeed...though I would say the SW also have a larger and more vocal fanbase than the UM and strike me as more "special".

UM haven't really been GW's special snowflakes in recent times.

Sure, the UM are more marketable to a general audience and High Lords of Nottingham have chosen Roboute Guilliman to return as he's the most organisationally adept loyalist primarch and easy to market...that's about it. Just a matter of GW desire to reach a wider audience.

That said, the fluff hasn't especially favoured the UM since the days of Ward. In-universe, the UM have had their fair share of hardships and failures, and they perform no better and no worse than their cousins.

Yea I see what you mean, but I just want to say I like both armies, I put the blame for their overexposure squarely on GW and maybe the BL authors, I try not to let my resentment affect my view of the armies and their players. I sometimes think if an ant farted on the other side of the galaxy GW and it’s authors would find a way to involve the wolves.

 

But this has also been coupled with what I view as a long neglect of us by Blacklibrary and GW in general, we’ve done nothing so far in the Heresy,the shattered legions have had more exposure than us, I’ve fallen behind but don’t think that’s changed much in later books. I’m really hopeful that Dante and Devastation of Baal inspire more writers to write about us and if they do make the flaws part of the story not it’s focus. Especially with Dante now commanding half the imperium.

[DogWelder]

"Harsh environments breed better warriors" is something I never understood in the setting.

 

There is literally no evidence that this is the case based on historical or real life examples. Countries with the highest standard of living or the most developed always produced the best quality soldiers. So I don't understand how someone could come to that conclusion.

[DarkChaplain]

Do they though? Or is it simply that the highest developed countries have the technological edge? "Barbarians" often had exceptional warriors, just that they lagged behind on equipment, stratagems and what not. Combine the two and you get Space Marines.

[Sete]

I could give you a very dark example about child soldiers. But I won't. But imagine it.

[choppyred]

To be selected to become an Astartes the subject has to be an exceptional specimen of humanity. To survive in a Death World enviroment to the age of Astartes recrutement one would have to be an exceptional specimen of humanity. So to me it seems like if an Astartes chapter recrutes from a Death World it would make their selection process easier as many of the unsuitable subjects would not have made it to recrutement age in the first place.

[1ncarnadine]

To be selected to become an Astartes the subject has to be an exceptional specimen of humanity. To survive in a Death World enviroment to the age of Astartes recrutement one would have to be an exceptional specimen of humanity. So to me it seems like if an Astartes chapter recrutes from a Death World it would make their selection process easier as many of the unsuitable subjects would not have made it to recrutement age in the first place.

 

But "exceptional specimens of humanity" will also kind of create themselves in a large society as a way to distinguish themselves. Olympian athletes, body builders, etc... in a culture that also semi-worships or considers attaining a post-human status a powerfully meaningful civic duty, do you not think a normal population would create a ton of Astartes recruits anyway? They could even be more physically fit in many ways, what with having better access to nutrition and training equipment.

[Sete]

Survivors. That's what they want. Mental fortitude. People used to hardship.

Not Hella jacked gym users.

[DogWelder]

But won't the people who survive in Deathworlds often be diseased, malnourished and be less resistant to genetic alteration due to their ravaged and probably parasite-ridden constitutions?

[Sete]

But I'm sure after being accepted into the chapter their survivor skills will come in handy.

They might be more ruthless, and less forgiving.

Not good for Ultramarines but great for Templars.

[TheRealMcCagh]

Survivors. That's what they want. Mental fortitude. People used to hardship.

Not Hella jacked gym users.

 

Exactly. If they cared about pure physicals, the aspirant trials would just be a bench press and squatting competition. The novel Dante goes over the BA recruitment process, and I can't think of one instance were it was strength and against strength. The gifts of the gene seed can turn a half starved, but mentally tough little kid into an angel of death. But it can't turn a weak willed behemoth into one