The Devastation of Baal- Discussion

[Knockagh]

It’s on the to read list. Dante was amazing, one of my all time favourite BL books.

[Phoebus]

Ultimately, it’s a given that Chapters have criteria they want to see in their Aspirants. Warrior cults and initiations have been a thing at least since mankind learned to write, and probably long before that. What’s less certain is to what degree those traits (whether they be skills, a particular mindset, the ability to survive certain situations, etc.) are necessary - or whether they even make any difference.

 

An Ultramarine, for example, is living proof that you don’t need to be an adolescent survivor of a Death World to be an exemplary Space Marine. Likewise, Dark Angels prove that you can recruit from feral, barbarian tribes and raise them to become some of the greatest tacticians and strategists in the Imperium. Blood Angels prove that you don’t even really need to be that healthy or physically impressive. It would seem that, for most Chapters, the only real pre-requisite is to be a genetic match for gene-seed implantation.

 

On the other hand, the inherent issues with the Canix Helix are such that specific genetic material - that is, native Fenrisian - is necessary. It could, in fact, be argued that the savage nature of the trials the young inductees are exposed to is also necessary if they are to master the emerging beast within them. An orbiting enclave that keeps its inhabitants safe from the volatile changes of the world below might produce Fenrisians who aren’t psychologically capable of taking in their Primarch’s genetic legacy.

[b1soul]

Are there noticeable differences in performance attributable to non-deathworld vs. deathworld recruitment?

 

For example...were Terran SW (or UM or EC) less effective than Fenrisian SW? I think not. Deathworld recruitment seems to be a cultural preference of the Primarch in charge

[Plaguecaster]

Yeah just look at chapters like the Black Templars who recruit from multiple worlds not all of them the same so it hardly matters if their aspirant is a noble born from a civilised world or a death world born savage it comes down to how the chapter trains them that shapes them not their past lives which basically has no bearing unless special cases like the SW who specifically train them like that as blood claws unlike BA who are still mostly a codex chapter (well with chapter training at least )

[choppyred]

 

To be selected to become an Astartes the subject has to be an exceptional specimen of humanity. To survive in a Death World enviroment to the age of Astartes recrutement one would have to be an exceptional specimen of humanity. So to me it seems like if an Astartes chapter recrutes from a Death World it would make their selection process easier as many of the unsuitable subjects would not have made it to recrutement age in the first place.

 

But "exceptional specimens of humanity" will also kind of create themselves in a large society as a way to distinguish themselves. Olympian athletes, body builders, etc... in a culture that also semi-worships or considers attaining a post-human status a powerfully meaningful civic duty, do you not think a normal population would create a ton of Astartes recruits anyway? They could even be more physically fit in many ways, what with having better access to nutrition and training equipment.

 

I agree up to a point. As others have pointed out a Death World upbringing creates a mental fortitude in a potential Astartes recruit which is more important it would seem from the fluff than physical attributes, for example the eradiated, malnourished preeteens of Baal in Dante. Now obviously Astartes can be and are successfully recruited from Civilized worlds, Macragge is the obvious example here. My original point was just that on a Death World natural selection would kill off a lot of unsuitable aspirants before any Astartes selection process would begin, making said process easier and quicker for the Chapter in question. So less time wasted for recruitment more time purging heretics and xenos  .

[b1soul]

Dunno if a SW or a BA necessarily has greater mental fortitude than a UM or a IF.

 

I see two schools of aspirant recruitment.

 

Natural training, e.g. death worlds

 

Structured training programs, e.g. Terran recruitment, Ultramarines

 

The historical Spartans were of the latter, and they were some of the most mentally tough soldiers ever. They weren't necessarily mentally more frail than people who grew up under terrible, natural circumstances (e.g. child-soldiers in the most impoverished, war-torn, disease-ridden parts of modern Africa).

 

Extremely harsh environments tend to breed extreme cruelty and a disdain for human life. There is much truth in Guilliman's claim that cruel men make cruel warrior make cruel lords.

 

Deathworld recruitment is a cultural preference with questionable efficiency.

[choppyred]

Dunno if a SW or a BA necessarily has greater mental fortitude than a UM or a IF.

 

I see two schools of aspirant recruitment.

 

Natural training, e.g. death worlds

 

Structured training programs, e.g. Terran recruitment, Ultramarines

 

The historical Spartans were of the latter, and they were some of the most mentally tough soldiers ever. They weren't necessarily mentally more frail than people who grew up under terrible, natural circumstances (e.g. child-soldiers in the most impoverished, war-torn, disease-ridden parts of modern Africa).

 

Extremely harsh environments tend to breed extreme cruelty and a disdain for human life. There is much truth in Guilliman's claim that cruel men make cruel warrior make cruel lords.

 

Deathworld recruitment is a cultural preference with questionable efficiency.

I didn't say that SW and BA had greater mental fortitude than any other chapter. What I am trying to say  is that the same level of mental fortitude is needed for an aspirant to be selected to become an Astartes no matter the chapter. I am just pointing out the expediancy of Death World recruitment in already removing the majority of those who would not be mentaly fit  to become Astartes through natural selection. Where as on a civilized world that would not be the case leading to a longer recruitment proccess and therefore wasting valuable Astartes time.

[A D-B]

Damn, you guys are killing it with this. What a freaking awesome discussion.

[caladancid]

Dunno if a SW or a BA necessarily has greater mental fortitude than a UM or a IF.

 

I see two schools of aspirant recruitment.

 

Natural training, e.g. death worlds

 

Structured training programs, e.g. Terran recruitment, Ultramarines

 

The historical Spartans were of the latter, and they were some of the most mentally tough soldiers ever. They weren't necessarily mentally more frail than people who grew up under terrible, natural circumstances (e.g. child-soldiers in the most impoverished, war-torn, disease-ridden parts of modern Africa).

 

Extremely harsh environments tend to breed extreme cruelty and a disdain for human life. There is much truth in Guilliman's claim that cruel men make cruel warrior make cruel lords.

 

Deathworld recruitment is a cultural preference with questionable efficiency.

Well, to your point about the Spartans. They may not have been raised in a naturally terrible environment, but they sure made an effort to create an incredibly harsh warrior creation system from a young age. Now, this does show that you can create a 'deathworld' type environment on a civilized world, but what about a civilized world without such a brutal indoctrination system?

 

And, there is some support that Astartes raised on civilized worlds can fall pretty hard, i.e. Emperor's Children and Chemos.

 

It could just be that deathworld create a quicker supply of recruits inured to suffering, while a civilized planet provides recruits with an ability to assimilate new tech and training faster.

 

I actually think for Blood Angels the bigger question is how much does Baal being a hellhole impact their self image. Since the Angels of Darkness codex Baal’s impact on their soul has been a thing. It definitely matters that they literally rise from hell to heaven, physically and spiritually. Part of the humanity that makes the BA so great is that they know what it’s like to be the lowest of the low.

 

Will be interesting to see if anything gets written about the change. Exciting times for BA lore.

[Jareddm]

In my opinion, leave the Death World recruitment for the Imperial Guard. The contrast between Death World-raised IG regiments and more developed worlds is a much sharper contrast than it is between space marines recruited from Feral or Civilized Worlds. Guardsmen won't have the benefit of astartes implants or psycho-indoctrination methods to sharpen their physical and mental fortitude. They rely only on what they bring from their homeworlds. We could have a dozen more Catachan-equivilants running around if many Death Worlds weren't considered the sole recruitment grounds of an astartes chapter.

[b1soul]

 

Dunno if a SW or a BA necessarily has greater mental fortitude than a UM or a IF.

I see two schools of aspirant recruitment.

Natural training, e.g. death worlds

Structured training programs, e.g. Terran recruitment, Ultramarines

The historical Spartans were of the latter, and they were some of the most mentally tough soldiers ever. They weren't necessarily mentally more frail than people who grew up under terrible, natural circumstances (e.g. child-soldiers in the most impoverished, war-torn, disease-ridden parts of modern Africa).

Extremely harsh environments tend to breed extreme cruelty and a disdain for human life. There is much truth in Guilliman's claim that cruel men make cruel warrior make cruel lords.

Deathworld recruitment is a cultural preference with questionable efficiency.

 

I didn't say that SW and BA had greater mental fortitude than any other chapter. What I am trying to say is that the same level of mental fortitude is needed for an aspirant to be selected to become an Astartes no matter the chapter. I am just pointing out the expediancy of Death World recruitment in already removing the majority of those who would not be mentaly fit to become Astartes through natural selection. Where as on a civilized world that would not be the case leading to a longer recruitment proccess and therefore wasting valuable Astartes time.

Deathworld aspirant trials typically involve a lot of luck...

 

A program can be engineered with greater efficiency to pick out aspirants with certain traits

 

Both approaches have pros and cons, but I see more pros with a structured approach.

 

Also, mental fortitude can be built. Virtues can be taught.

 

A lot of deathworld trials have massive fatality rates. That's a huge waste of potential.

 

EDIT: the Spartan training environment was harsh, yes...but it's nowhere near as over-the-top lethal as the typical 40K deathworld.

 

For all we know, Spartan-like training is probably what the UM implement. I'm pretty sure the Cadians do something very similar.

[choppyred]

 

 

Dunno if a SW or a BA necessarily has greater mental fortitude than a UM or a IF.

I see two schools of aspirant recruitment.

Natural training, e.g. death worlds

Structured training programs, e.g. Terran recruitment, Ultramarines

The historical Spartans were of the latter, and they were some of the most mentally tough soldiers ever. They weren't necessarily mentally more frail than people who grew up under terrible, natural circumstances (e.g. child-soldiers in the most impoverished, war-torn, disease-ridden parts of modern Africa).

Extremely harsh environments tend to breed extreme cruelty and a disdain for human life. There is much truth in Guilliman's claim that cruel men make cruel warrior make cruel lords.

Deathworld recruitment is a cultural preference with questionable efficiency.

I didn't say that SW and BA had greater mental fortitude than any other chapter. What I am trying to say is that the same level of mental fortitude is needed for an aspirant to be selected to become an Astartes no matter the chapter. I am just pointing out the expediancy of Death World recruitment in already removing the majority of those who would not be mentaly fit to become Astartes through natural selection. Where as on a civilized world that would not be the case leading to a longer recruitment proccess and therefore wasting valuable Astartes time.

Deathworld aspirant trials typically involve a lot of luck...

 

A program can be engineered with greater efficiency to pick out aspirants with certain traits

 

Both approaches have pros and cons, but I see more pros with a structured approach.

 

Also, mental fortitude can be built. Virtues can be taught.

 

A lot of deathworld trials have massive fatality rates. That's a huge waste of potential.

 

EDIT: the Spartan training environment was harsh, yes...but it's nowhere near as over-the-top lethal as the typical 40K deathworld.

 

For all we know, Spartan-like training is probably what the UM implement. I'm pretty sure the Cadians do something very similar.

 

Yes b1soul, I agree   mental fortitude can be built and virtues can be taught, but it takes time and effort. It seems to me that our counter arguements come down to what is the biggest loss to the chapter, time and effort (in extra training on Civilized Worlds) in my case or potential (in lost lives on Death Worlds) in your case. It makes me feel like I'm trying to get in to Perturabo's way of thinking by looking at it like this, the disspassionate maths of efficent Astartes recruitment  .  In all fairness I don't think that it really makes much difference except to the lives of those humans who live on Astartes recruitment worlds and have never and will never become Astartes.

[DogWelder]

I'd argue that aspirants from hyper-civilized worlds are more loyal to the Imperium as well. If someone is recruited from a prosperous world he has lived in for his entire life, he knows there is something he is fighting for, that his society/civilization functions and Chaos offers nothing but a downgrade from that.

 

I've always thought that was why there was so few Ultramarine traitors. They're not that loyal to the Emperor himself but genuinely believe that the system/society Guilliman built (Ultramar) as well as his ideas of human dominance, meritocracy, governance by Astartes was the only way for humanity to survive and was the genuine truth of the universe.

[1ncarnadine]

Survivors. That's what they want. Mental fortitude. People used to hardship.

Not Hella jacked gym users.

 

I didn't communicate it well, but I assumed that selection for character was implied. But that's also qualitative as heck - every Chapter may be looking for something a little different, right? Deadlifting your way into the ranks of the Legiones Astartes sounds extremely silly, but in this vast IP it stands to reason that there's been a Chapter that has valued the physical condition of its young aspirants significantly more than anything else. And maybe it didn't go well...

 

It always gets messy when you get into that aspect to 40k that is also the battle for the human soul, I guess.

 

I agree up to a point. As others have pointed out a Death World upbringing creates a mental fortitude in a potential Astartes recruit which is more important it would seem from the fluff than physical attributes, for example the eradiated, malnourished preeteens of Baal in Dante. Now obviously Astartes can be and are successfully recruited from Civilized worlds, Macragge is the obvious example here. My original point was just that on a Death World natural selection would kill off a lot of unsuitable aspirants before any Astartes selection process would begin, making said process easier and quicker for the Chapter in question. So less time wasted for recruitment more time purging heretics and xenos  .

 

Yeah, the Ultramarines are a good example of how that already works. Uriel Ventris was a farmer, right? That seemed to work out fine.

 

b1soul said it already as well, but the thing with the Death Worlds is that the harsh conditions will probably also kill off a lot of suitable aspirants. It's also not going to guarantee acceptable mental character. Florian from Dante is a really good example of this. 

 

I would also argue that Death Worlds are not necessarily going to be faster for Space Marine recruiters, unless aspirants are being artificially aged faster or something. Easier, maybe? It's hard to say, but the Space Marine themselves don't have to be deeply involved in either type of culture.

 

For the sake of argument, let's say there's a hypothetical Astartes recruiting world that considers it the civic duty of the first born son of every family to attempt to join the ranks of the Astartes. Kids would undergo genetic testing, training and be educated all the way until aspirant training, and then start going through more and more grueling and dangerous trials - many would probably still die, but perhaps less than a Death World? But you would have a very large sample size and many recruits... And now there are heaps of extremely fit, failed aspirants for the Scholam, Guard, Astartes thralls, etc. Granted, there's still something monstrous about bending an entire developed world to do all of that (yes, very Perturabo), but Warhammer's universe is pretty dang trying so maybe we can say it's justified. And again, as b1soul pointed out, this might already basically be what the Ultramarines do with worlds like Macragge.

 

 

I'd argue that aspirants from hyper-civilized worlds are more loyal to the Imperium as well. If someone is recruited from a prosperous world he has lived in for his entire life, he knows there is something he is fighting for, that his society/civilization functions and Chaos offers nothing but a downgrade from that.

 

I've always thought that was why there was so few Ultramarine traitors. They're not that loyal to the Emperor himself but genuinely believe that the system/society Guilliman built (Ultramar) as well as his ideas of human dominance, meritocracy, governance by Astartes was the only way for humanity to survive and was the genuine truth of the universe.

 

Well... Is Chaos necessarily less functional? Maybe not! But probably less civilized... 

 

I'm pretty sure most Word Bearers also believe in human dominance, meritocracy, governance by Astartes, and that the only way for humanity to survive is to embrace the genuine truth of the universe

 

 

edit: and oof with all the good posts I missed caladancid's post, which raises some incredible points. Love the Chemos example, and esp. the point about the Blood Angels.

[DogWelder]

 

Survivors. That's what they want. Mental fortitude. People used to hardship.

Not Hella jacked gym users.

 

I didn't communicate it well, but I assumed that selection for character was implied. But that's also qualitative as heck - every Chapter may be looking for something a little different, right? Deadlifting your way into the ranks of the Legiones Astartes sounds extremely silly, but in this vast IP it stands to reason that there's been a Chapter that has valued the physical condition of its young aspirants significantly more than anything else. And maybe it didn't go well...

 

It always gets messy when you get into that aspect to 40k that is also the battle for the human soul, I guess.

 

I agree up to a point. As others have pointed out a Death World upbringing creates a mental fortitude in a potential Astartes recruit which is more important it would seem from the fluff than physical attributes, for example the eradiated, malnourished preeteens of Baal in Dante. Now obviously Astartes can be and are successfully recruited from Civilized worlds, Macragge is the obvious example here. My original point was just that on a Death World natural selection would kill off a lot of unsuitable aspirants before any Astartes selection process would begin, making said process easier and quicker for the Chapter in question. So less time wasted for recruitment more time purging heretics and xenos  .

 

Yeah, the Ultramarines are a good example of how that already works. Uriel Ventris was a farmer, right? That seemed to work out fine.

 

b1soul said it already as well, but the thing with the Death Worlds is that the harsh conditions will probably also kill off a lot of suitable aspirants. It's also not going to guarantee acceptable mental character. Florian from Dante is a really good example of this. 

 

I would also argue that Death Worlds are not necessarily going to be faster for Space Marine recruiters, unless aspirants are being artificially aged faster or something. Easier, maybe? It's hard to say, but the Space Marine themselves don't have to be deeply involved in either type of culture.

 

For the sake of argument, let's say there's a hypothetical Astartes recruiting world that considers it the civic duty of the first born son of every family to attempt to join the ranks of the Astartes. Kids would undergo genetic testing, training and be educated all the way until aspirant training, and then start going through more and more grueling and dangerous trials - many would probably still die, but perhaps less than a Death World? But you would have a very large sample size and many recruits... And now there are heaps of extremely fit, failed aspirants for the Scholam, Guard, Astartes thralls, etc. Granted, there's still something monstrous about bending an entire developed world to do all of that (yes, very Perturabo), but Warhammer's universe is pretty dang trying so maybe we can say it's justified. And again, as b1soul pointed out, this might already basically be what the Ultramarines do with worlds like Macragge.

 

 

I'd argue that aspirants from hyper-civilized worlds are more loyal to the Imperium as well. If someone is recruited from a prosperous world he has lived in for his entire life, he knows there is something he is fighting for, that his society/civilization functions and Chaos offers nothing but a downgrade from that.

 

I've always thought that was why there was so few Ultramarine traitors. They're not that loyal to the Emperor himself but genuinely believe that the system/society Guilliman built (Ultramar) as well as his ideas of human dominance, meritocracy, governance by Astartes was the only way for humanity to survive and was the genuine truth of the universe.

 

Well... Is Chaos necessarily less functional? Maybe not! But probably less civilized... 

 

I'm pretty sure most Word Bearers also believe in human dominance, meritocracy, governance by Astartes, and that the only way for humanity to survive is to embrace the genuine truth of the universe

 

 

Exactly! I've always thought the Word Bearers and Ultramarines were mirror images of each others with one side fanatically devoted to spiritualism and religious zealotry while the other was the same with secularism and science/logic.

 

While the Imperial Church was the simply the opposite side of the Word Bearer's 'mirror'.

 

 

[Phoebus]

Great points being made! LetsYouDown and b1soul covered most of what I wanted to add, but I’d like to throw one more thing out there.

 

We need to be careful when using broad stereotypes like “Civilized World” and “Death World.” It’s not nearly that simple. Sure, Chemos and Ultramar both technically fell under the “Civilized World” category, but the priorities of their respective Primarchs were fundamentally different. The Emperor’s Children fell to Chaos because Fulgrim pushed a culture of personal perfection, which in turn fostered the cult of personality their commanders enjoyed. That unhealthy mix of narcissism and ambition is what let Slaanesh in. The Ultramarines remained loyal because Guilliman demanded fidelity and discipline above all else, and it was those traits his warriors celebrated as a result.

 

Likewise, Nocturne and Fenris are both technically “Death Worlds” whose ecology suffers under recurring, planetary-scale devastation, but the cultures they are home to are completely different. The people of Nocturne are divided between tribes and people who live in highly-advanced city-states, but they all value harsh existences that prepare them for lives as warriors and hunters. When Nocturne’s moon passes too closely and the world starts falling apart, they put differences aside and come together in a spirit of cooperation, to survive. The people of Fenris, on the other hand, only exist as part of semi-nomadic tribes who engage in nigh-constant internecine warfare for resources. They certainly don’t possess strongholds that can survive their planet’s tectonic upheaval, and it’s doubtful they’d raise a helping hand to a rival tribe.

[SpecialIssue]

If we are using Spartans as the ultimate example of 'civilized' soldiers being superior over 'barbaric' ones, and that it was done without resorting to or encouraging cruelty in the society they grew up in, it might bear minding that the Spartans weren't kind or caring to either their helot slaves or in their own training methods.

 

They taught and encouraged their young boys to steal from others (but not be caught), fed them "just the right amount for them never to become sluggish through being too full, while also giving them a taste of what it is not to have enough" to ensure they were used to hunger so it wouldn't be such as issue on the campaign, and showed no mercy to the helots - killing them was regarded as a service to the state, not a crime.

 

Roman soldiers are often hardly the exemplar of order and clemency either, even when disciplined. During Caesar's campaigns in Gaul, it is estimated by his direct command, through burning and slaughtering the villages and cities (yes, Gaul did have cities). There are different figures of how many Rome killed - probably 20% of the entire population of Gaul, which would only recover centuries later. Caesar himself boasted he killed 1 million and enslaved more.

 

To be a soldier expected to go into close combat and stab someone's eyes out, face to face, eye to eye, requires ruthlessness and conditioning to view it as 'normal'. Hatred and xenophobia is also a useful buffer to distance oneself from both the fear, and the 'other' you are doing violence to.

 

So while the Ultramarines and Ultramar are 'civilized', I'd rather not equate that to a sense of either mercy, clemency or liberalism. Despite its infrastructure and grandeur, I'd expect Ultramar to be full of xenophobia, 'nationalism', eugenics, and harsh discipline in order to breed a suitable population willing, motivated and honored to go to war and slaughter rebels and monsters alike. It seems to be pragmatic and logical to do so.

Combined with genetic comapatibility and the effects of the physical transformation, I'd argue that there is little to separate the quality in recruits between Baal and Macragge, and that there is a reason that deathworlds were left in that state, even during the golden age of the great crusade. Individual suffering and hardship meant nothing to the lords of the Imperium in the face of necessary conquest and maintenance of military power. Logic and secularism don't preclude what we'd regard as cruelty today.

[b1soul]

You can set up a Spartan-like system without having a massive helot underclass

 

The Spartans are not The Ultimate Example, they are an example, perhaps a template. Plenty of room for improvement.

[Ranwulf]

Its not just a question of a civilized world or not, but how much being part of that specific world is inherit to the Chapter culture.

 

Black Templars don't have a centralized chapter, its Dorns and the Emperor believes that form the whole culture fore of the chapter, so a change in a world means little for them. 

 

The White Scars and the Space Wolves both valued those born on their worlds more because the culture of that world was extremely important to them. In the Horus Heresy, even Yesugei said himself how he was glad that there would be more Chogorians on the their Legion, and that is understandable, we see how much the chapter cultured is formed from it, how their whole language comes from, while they love a motorized assault, and so many other chapter beliefs.

 

Chogoris is not necessarily a "death world", but say Guilliman said "This could be better, you could recruit your soliders better if you changed it". Now, look at it. See what changes from the mentatility and how the White Scars view and form their own inner selves. What would happen if the White Scars no longer could roam in plains, but now had hive cities in its place. Would they still dread being interred in Dreadnoughts? Would they be Born in the Saddle? I think not. 

 

Same thing with the Blood Angels. You may think that Baal doesn't influence their sons as much as Chogoris or Fenris, but one of the prime excerpts from the book itself is what Seth says about the Blood Angels and other sons of sanguinius: "The Struggle". That is what he, and even Sanguinius said in the Horus Heresy novels, would make them who they are. The people born in Baal understand that struggle, we see that from page one, with the vendor hating his son and his mother-in-law, even wanting to end it all, but he kept going. That is the inner core of the Blood Angels, they fight and keep going even though life is harsh and unforgiving. Life being harsh and unforgiving, also brings up the next point, in that when someone ascends as a Blood Angel, they still know the struggle, but now it comes from deep within. Its their inner core of keeping and going, and its one of the main reasons why I think they are one of the most humanist and compassionate chapters, is because they know what is the "struggle" to a human and to an Astartes. You don't abandon it when you ascend, you learn to accept it, and live with it. 

 

That brings the whole point of why Seth was upset with the Primaris marines, its Guilliman changing the Chapter culture, its taking away what makes them who they are for an idea of what he believes its better. Even worse, those Primaris are stated to be BETTER than Space Marines. You see the problem? They are made to not understand the same "struggle".

 

A Death World definitly is not the best way to recruit soldiers, but is definitly the best way to recruit Fenrisians and Baalites and turn them into Space Wolves and Blood Angels.

 

Ran

[Indefragable]

The short version of my thoughts:

 

The Spartans came from a well-to-do, civilzed*, society and are to this day considered perhaps the shorthand gold standard of soldiers.

 

...but their training methods were some of the most brutal and extreme. Death among children was an average day.

 

Compare to Hell Week at BUD/S or any other such modern equivalent of your choice.

 

In short, will Catachan regiments hold the same reputation whence Starbucks and Apple Stores start opening there?

[b1soul]

Yes b1soul, I agree :yes: mental fortitude can be built and virtues can be taught, but it takes time and effort. It seems to me that our counter arguements come down to what is the biggest loss to the chapter, time and effort (in extra training on Civilized Worlds) in my case or potential (in lost lives on Death Worlds) in your case.

The problem with deathworld recruting rituals is that a lot of suitable candidates could die and a lot of unsuitable candidates could survive. Much is left to chance (the "will of the Emperor") with massive potential for waste.

 

What if Florian had brained Dante in that final stick fight?

The BA would have lost their finest commander since Sanguinius himself.

 

Even outside the aspirant trials, it's arguable whether the deathworld natural selection process is yielding the desired traits.

 

Frankly, I don't see how teaching virtues/fortitude while removing those who don't learn would incur a massive cost. I would argue it's cost-efficient in the long-run.

 

That's not to say I don't enjoy reading about deathworld recruitment in the fluff. I do and I like the fictional value.

[b1soul]

The short version of my thoughts:

The Spartans came from a well-to-do, civilzed*, society and are to this day considered perhaps the shorthand gold standard of soldiers.

...but their training methods were some of the most brutal and extreme. Death among children was an average day.

Spartan training was brutal and children did die...but the fatality rate was nowhere near the Grimdark 90%-99% of most deathworld recruiting rituals.

 

"Civilised" training programs in 40K would be around Spartan-level. How's that for Grimdark?

[DogWelder]

 

The short version of my thoughts:

The Spartans came from a well-to-do, civilzed*, society and are to this day considered perhaps the shorthand gold standard of soldiers.

...but their training methods were some of the most brutal and extreme. Death among children was an average day.

Spartan training was brutal and children did die...but the fatality rate was nowhere near the Grimdark 90%-99% of most deathworld recruiting rituals.

 

"Civilised" training programs in 40K would be around Spartan-level. How's that for Grimdark?

 

 

I don't really recall any deaths being mentioned in the Ultramarines recruitment process from the books if I recall correctly. At least not intentional ones. Every time an Ultramarine aspirant fails a certain trial, he seems to just join the Ultramar Auxilia instead. Or the Chapter serfs.

[b1soul]

You could be right...what sources are you recalling?

 

If that's the case, UM training would probably be considered very "civilised" even compared to other "civilised" programs in 40K. The pinnacle of civility, really...and probably the least wasteful.

 

My point is that historical Spartan training is rather benign compared to 40K deathworld ways

[Plaguecaster]

Guilliman probably wants the BA and other chapters to be more practical than solely focusing on tradition with their recruitment, I still need to pick up the book (which hopefully should be next week) so unsure of what happened as an aftermath to the population of Baal since tyranids plus daemons don't really leave much survivors even when defeated.

 

If you solely recruit from one chapter homeworld and that world gets devastated with the population massacred (especially if it's multiple times) then that chapter will struggle to replenish their losses (even with Primaris marines) especially if it's a Death World which would of had an even smaller population to begin with compared to a more civilised world maybe Guilliman wants the Blood Angels as well as other chapters to realise that with the way the Imperium is they should increase their recruit capabilities in this case make Bael a Death World no longer (was it actually stated Guilliman wants bael to become a civilised utopia like the worlds of the Ultramarines or just a world which doesn't kill the population so Death world to Feral or anyone that isn't actively trying to kill the population) which would mean the population would increase since the planet isn't trying to kill them so the chapter can recruit even more than what they could from a Death World meaning that even if it gets devastated again it's easiler to replenish losses.

 

 

I thought the whole chapter recruitment process was more of a chapter's vanity to recruit a set way instead of a practical ways of creating a space marine since it's more to to with your physiology as it doesn't matter how much of a survivor or fighter some aspirant is. If they can't accept the organs then they can never be a space marine as you can get marines who once were malnourished slum rats (can't remember where but there was a novel which a marine who had a very similiar background ) but have aspirants who passes all the chapters trials of recruitment only to die when his body didn't accept the organs.