The Devastation of Baal- Discussion

[DogWelder]

You could be right...what sources are you recalling?

 

If that's the case, UM training would probably be considered very "civilised" even compared to other "civilised" programs in 40K. The pinnacle of civility, really...and probably the least wasteful.

 

My point is that historical Spartan training is rather benign compared to 40K deathworld ways

 

Mostly Uriel's flashbacks from the Ultramarines Omnibus regarding his training days plus some snippets from the Horus Heresy novels. Seems it was more of physical endurance tests (long marches, sprints across rough terrain, running through obstacle courses) as well as training in a large complex known as the 'Asglesius Barracks' located in the center of Macragge city where Guilliman himself trained as a child. There weren't really any deaths mentioned, just dropouts and failiures. Though I suppose a handful die in the geneseed implantation process.

[SpecialIssue]

I'm unsure whether there are actually many deaths from the actual selection process, except for the harshest, most psychopathic chapter. Apart from the day-today lives of the population, I always thought any deaths come from the physical rejection of the transformation. Otherwise what is the source of the serfs, which are valuable in of themselves to the chapter?

[Phoebus]

"Civilized World" merely denotes an Imperial planet that doesn't have a specific function (e.g., Agri-World, Forge World, Fortress World, etc.) and isn't defined by some other factor (e.g., Death Worlds are somehow inimical to human life), right? Civilized Worlds aren't synonymous with virtue or social justice. They're just self-sufficient agriculturally, industrially, and militarily. Stick us in the 41st millennium under another name, give us some extra levels of technology, and we'd be a Civilized World with enough heterogeneous cultures and conditions to produce death squads in a nation close to one that gives birth to peace protesters.

 

Where attrition rates are concerned, the last edition of Codex: Blood Angels indicates that most of their Aspirants perish during their transformation. It also qualifies that most candidates how up stunted, malnourished, and suffering from cancerous growths. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation, but it is nonetheless tempting to assume that the environment of Baal Secundus has a negative effect on the survival rate of prospective Space Marines. Children of Ultramar certainly don't face as much hardship as their Baalite counterparts; the Uriel Ventris novels paint a picture of healthy, well-trained, physically fit, and ideologically indoctrinated youths who are pushed to their limits within controlled experiments. Guilliman thus has a right to question the way things are done on Baal, but ironically chooses to couch his argument along less objective grounds.

[Karthak]

My headcanon is that a scene like this occurred some time during the Great Crusade:

 

"Russ, Manus and other Deathworld Primarchs enthuse over their recruitment system."

Guilliman: "I'm sorry, but I cannot hear you over the footsteps of my Legion, the largest of them all, and all recruited from prosperous, healthy populations."

:P

[DarkChaplain]

So... the book is good, I take it? They usually are when discussions move to only tangentially related topics on their threads, based on a short paragraph or two among hundreds of pages.

 

Should probably go ahead and read Dante at last and move on to Baal right after.

[DogWelder]

So... the book is good, I take it? They usually are when discussions move to only tangentially related topics on their threads, based on a short paragraph or two among hundreds of pages.

 

Should probably go ahead and read Dante at last and move on to Baal right after.

 

Oh definitely. The Blood Angels successors are really what made it for me since they all have a unique presence and the already interesting lore behind them (in previous editions) is explored in the book as they interact with their parent chapter.

 

The Tyranids are presented as somewhat competant as well instead of simply canon fodder.

[caladancid]

So... the book is good, I take it? They usually are when discussions move to only tangentially related topics on their threads, based on a short paragraph or two among hundreds of pages.

 

Should probably go ahead and read Dante at last and move on to Baal right after.

Yeah it’s real good. Doesn’t let up the entire time.

 

Even at the very end, when things have gone fully to hell for the BA, you keep finding out more about the various Successors and the main characters themselves.

[Ascanius]

I'm unsure whether there are actually many deaths from the actual selection process, except for the harshest, most psychopathic chapter. Apart from the day-today lives of the population, I always thought any deaths come from the physical rejection of the transformation. Otherwise what is the source of the serfs, which are valuable in of themselves to the chapter?

 

Serfs are the ones that don't die, but do fail in other ways.

 

Dante shows plenty of aspirants killed in the selection process. Chapter Nine, when they're playing capture the flag skull? Luis doesn't want to kill the other team, but not everyone on his team feels the same way. Ristan kills one boy when they sneak into the enemy fort, three of the enemy's team die while capturing Luis's team's skull, several more enemy survivors are killed when they return to their own fort.

 

So... the book is good, I take it? They usually are when discussions move to only tangentially related topics on their threads, based on a short paragraph or two among hundreds of pages.

 

Should probably go ahead and read Dante at last and move on to Baal right after.

 

I've never been that interested in the Blood Angels before, but I read Dante because I wanted to read Devastation of Baal, and I thought it was excellent. I really liked the backstory chapters.

 

Devastation of Baal isn't as good, to my tastes, because there are more and longer straightforward blow-by-blow descriptions of combat which I find largely tedious, but it has some great stuff in it: insights into characters like Mephiston and Gabriel Seth, really interesting chapters about how tyranids work, and the Cicatrix Maledictum/Indomitus Crusade stuff. I recommend it!

[DarkChaplain]

I've been a bit hesitant on Dante ever since realizing that, hey, I actually haven't read the three Shield of Baal novellas yet, or the campaign tomes in any real detail. Figured I should probably follow the chronology to not miss out on references, but it is damn tempting to just skip ahead and plow through Haley's novels.

[caladancid]

I've been a bit hesitant on Dante ever since realizing that, hey, I actually haven't read the three Shield of Baal novellas yet, or the campaign tomes in any real detail. Figured I should probably follow the chronology to not miss out on references, but it is damn tempting to just skip ahead and plow through Haley's novels.

 

I have read the Shield of Baal stories and own the campaign book, but didn't read any of the campaign books surrounding Diamor so I was a bit lost but didn't think it mattered.

 

Haley does a good job at catching up the reader of Shield of Baal events and backstory that matters, so I wouldn't worry about that.

[Ascanius]

I was generally only interested in the backstory chapters in Dante, especially since not that much happens in the "present day" besides the decision to withdraw and fortify Baal proper with the successors; I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything by not having read about the Cryptus campaign previously.

[Malios]

Was a good book. I'm glad that I waited before proceding forward with my Angels Encarmine project: it gave some clear direction in that regard.

[Marshal Rohr]

There are college sports stadiums that can hold more people than the Blood Angels fortress monastery then.

[Phoebus]

Black Library and Games Workshop have long played fast and loose with terms related to capacity, especially when it comes to warships and fortress monasteries. I mean, we know that a strike cruiser can carry more than a hundred Space Marines. A vessel 2-4km long could accomodate many times more that number just in the main corridors of the ship (“Magnetically lock your power armour into place and activate your Sus-an membranes, brothers!”). It’s more accurate to say that a modern strike cruiser’s facilities - its Apothecarion, its Armorium, etc. - are designed around supporting a number of Space Marines associated with most strike forces (a Battle Company and other elements).

 

Similarly, I’m sure that a fortress monastery can fit exponentially more then a college football stadium’s worth of people if we’re just talking about shoulder-to-shoulder capacity. Even a First Founding Chapter’s fortress monastery may not have been built to support the number of Space Marines associated with a legion at its height of power, though.

[bluntblade]

Well Mortarion intended to build a Legion of 490,000 warriors.

[Indefragable]

There are college sports stadiums that can hold more people than the Blood Angels fortress monastery then.

True...when people wear nothing but foam fingers and t-shirts and are required to do nothing but sit/stand in one spot.

 

Compare to 7’ tall warriors with a literal ton of war gear that needs to be stowed, cleaned, maintained, etc...plus the human logistics of eating sleeping and cleansing. Then there’s all the beans and bullets for them, and the kitchens, the armories...and we’re not even talking about the “300 effect” where for each SM there’s probably 2-10 serfs who actually do the day-to-day non-killing stuff.

 

“Amateurs talk tactics, but professionals study logistics.”

(That quote is not directed at you, but rather to show how such an important piece of warfare tends to get glossed over in a setting like 40k)

[Leif Bearclaw]

My headcanon is that a scene like this occurred some time during the Great Crusade:

 

"Russ, Manus and other Deathworld Primarchs enthuse over their recruitment system."

Guilliman: "I'm sorry, but I cannot hear you over the footsteps of my Legion, the largest of them all, and all recruited from prosperous, healthy populations."

 

Does that include the inevitable counter argument "You recruits from 500 worlds, I recruit from 1, yet you only have twice/one and a half times my Legion's number, what is the XIII doing wrong?" .

[Phoebus]

A-ha, but remember that one of the problems with the Legiones Astartes, from some of the earliest lore even, had to do with the accelerated implantation and induction timelines. Guilliman may or may not have had induction centers in most of his 500 Worlds. Most of Guilliman's 500 Worlds may or may not have had the population or resources to support an Astartes recruitment process. What can be said with a degree of surety, though, is that Guilliman is not the kind of guy who would cut corners/compromise on quality to get quantity.

[Karthak]

A-ha, but remember that one of the problems with the Legiones Astartes, from some of the earliest lore even, had to do with the accelerated implantation and induction timelines. Guilliman may or may not have had induction centers in most of his 500 Worlds. Most of Guilliman's 500 Worlds may or may not have had the population or resources to support an Astartes recruitment process. What can be said with a degree of surety, though, is that Guilliman is not the kind of guy who would cut corners/compromise on quality to get quantity.

Also, it means he won't unduly burden any particular world. One of the reasons Olympia rose in rebellion was that they were losing so many of their boy children to the Legion's insatiable appetite for recruits.

 

That might also be an in-universe reason for the Blood Angels to improve living standards on Baal Secundus: With the loss of the other moon, their source of potential recruits has been cut in half.

[The Red Thirst]

My dead tree copy is in the mail and I wont get to read it until Christmas, has there been any confirmation that The Flaw isnt present in the Primaris Marines??

This right here has me worried - 


Source - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/27/chapter-focus-blood-angels/

 

[Ogun]

My dead tree copy is in the mail and I wont get to read it until Christmas, has there been any confirmation that The Flaw isnt present in the Primaris Marines??

 

This right here has me worried - 

 

Source - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/27/chapter-focus-blood-angels/

 

 

 From this month's White Dwarf:

'There's no Primaris Space Marines in the Death Company... for the time being, at least, we don't know yet if Primaris Space Marines will succumb to the Black Rage. But the Primaris Space Marines have only been added to the ranks of the Chapter relatively recently, so time will tell if they are truly free from the flaw...'

 

Read that as 'its coming at some point'. Primaris may be designed to sell more marine models, but they are also being used as a narrative device. GW has no reason to deflavour one of its most popular marine factions.

[1ncarnadine]

My dead tree copy is in the mail and I wont get to read it until Christmas, has there been any confirmation that The Flaw isnt present in the Primaris Marines??

 

This right here has me worried - 

[snip]

Source - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/27/chapter-focus-blood-angels/

 

I think it's just that they don't seem to exhibit it - yet.

 

I remember when Primaris were first announced and it was suggested that in many ways Primaris are closer to their Primarchs... Whatever that means. There was talk of Blood Angels Primaris spontaneously going into a range and maybe even busting out wings and then dying.

 

The Blood Angels Codex now might be kind of a stop-gap in that sense. I imagine they'll get back to all of the Angels within the next few years and do a more significant model release... And explore what it means to be a Primaris in these Chapters a lot more.

[helterskelter]

They've already had 200 years. If it does come it took it's sweet time.

[Ogun]

Less than a century I think. Guilliman didn't make it to Baal for some time, so the BAs haven't had the Primaris for as long as many other chapters.

[Plaguecaster]

They've already had 200 years. If it does come it took it's sweet time.

And none of the Blood angels when they were a legion ever experienced the flaw as much as do now it was only with the death of their Primarch which seemed to of set it off. GW could be setting up an event that triggers the flaw