The Devastation of Baal- Discussion

[Laughingman]

Personally though it was strange that 40K blood angels were only able to draw a couple dozen worthy aspirants a year from Baal, when the blood angels legion were able to recruit tens of thousands in the decades  after the rediscovery of Sanguinous. I assume they had lower recruiting standards in the old legions.

[DogWelder]

Isn't disease a big factor in taking out potential recruits too?

 

I mean what if Kadran Blazeblitzer, the future leader of the Eviscerators Chapter that would have gone on to win a hundred battles and take back entire subsectors from the forces of Chaos due to his uncomparable strategic vision, didn't have access to malaria pills and therefore died of malaria at the age of 10 due to being bitten by a mosquito when he was sleeping.

[Marshal Rohr]

Then Kadran was weak.

[DogWelder]

Then Kadran was weak.

 

But he didn't really have any control over that situation. Anyone would have died in his place. Microscopic parasites don't really care about your physical or mental strength. 

[Scribe]

 

Then Kadran was weak.

 

But he didn't really have any control over that situation. Anyone would have died in his place. Microscopic parasites don't really care about your physical or mental strength. 

 

 

I'm getting this massive 'i'm missing the point' vibe.

[b1soul]

You're missing the point entirely. We aren't saying its one or the other, its a cultural thing.

 

No...you just haven't been reading along. Who doesn't understand that it's a "cultural thing"? See my earlier post:

 

Deathworld recruitment is a cultural preference with questionable efficiency.

EDIT: Yeah, we get it...it is established culture. Sometimes culture/tradition may have to yield to new demands, like those arising from Imperium Nihilus.

[DogWelder]

 

 

Then Kadran was weak.

 

But he didn't really have any control over that situation. Anyone would have died in his place. Microscopic parasites don't really care about your physical or mental strength. 

 

 

I'm getting this massive 'i'm missing the point' vibe.

 

 

I'm getting that harsh environments should automatically produce the strongest and smartest recruits but survival in these kinds of environments doesn't solely depend on your strength and smarts.

 

In many cases the strongest and smartest are just as likely to die due to stuff like diseases and their talent/strength is lost because of it. 

[b1soul]

 

I'm getting this massive 'i'm missing the point' vibe.

Do you even comprehend what the current issue is?

 

We all know that Deathworld recruitment is based on culture.

 

We're talking about the merits of Deathworld recruitment vs. non-Deathworld recruitmemt because Guilliman is asking Dante to change Baal and recruit differently. We're just exploring the potential justifications and efficiency gains.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

You're missing the point entirely. We aren't saying its one or the other, its a cultural thing.

 

No...you just haven't been reading along. Who doesn't understand that it's a "cultural thing"? See my earlier post:

 

Deathworld recruitment is a cultural preference with questionable efficiency.

EDIT: Yeah, we get it...it is established culture. Sometimes culture/tradition may have to yield to new demands, like those arising from Imperium Nihilus.

And you’re still not getting that Guy Haley playing with the established homeworld of one of the big four is a slap in the face to people that like rad waste Baal as part of the reason they chose Blood Angels. I don’t particularly care if the IN storyline makes it a logical choice, because that storyline is irrelevant when we look at the fact people have paid money for X (Blood Angels as they are now) not expecting their fundamental background to be changed so another Primarch can look intelligent.

[Scribe]

 

 

 

Then Kadran was weak.

 

But he didn't really have any control over that situation. Anyone would have died in his place. Microscopic parasites don't really care about your physical or mental strength. 

 

 

I'm getting this massive 'i'm missing the point' vibe.

 

 

I'm getting that harsh environments should automatically produce the strongest and smartest recruits but survival in these kinds of environments doesn't solely depend on your strength and smarts.

 

In many cases the strongest and smartest are just as likely to die due to stuff like diseases and their talent/strength is lost because of it. 

 

 

Yes, and that is the point.

 

b1soul, I know what you talking about, and I dont really care for it.. EDIT: And frankly yes, I find your question of my comprehension comically insulting when this very thread and the post I'm actually responding to illustrates a lack of comprehension for the basic truth of the setting.

 

Dogwelder is on a different line of thought, that the strongest and smartest are just as likely to die to random fate.

 

SUCH IS THE NATURE OF THE SETTING.

[b1soul]

@ Scribe

 

Basic truth of the setting...

 

Well, it might be transforming before your very eyes if it hasn't already.

 

Yes, I get it, you like Grimdark and Grimdark has been central to pre-GS 40K and WHFB (before AoS)...but times might be a changin'.

 

Many aspects of Grimdark will always be around, but the certainty of imminent, Imperium-wide defeat might get toned down.

 

AoS is Great Crusade-esque in essence and Guilliman's return shares some similarity.

 

 

EDIT: @ Marshal Rohr

 

I think we should settle down and observe how the BA in Imperium Nihilus play out.

[Scribe]

They certainly could be, but its completely asinine to reboot a factions complete mythos (radiated kids turned into the peak of greek marble perfection quite literally the most NobleBright of creation stories in the lore) just to paint the picture differently.

 

Further more, there is a huge gap in apparent knowledge of the setting AS IT HAS BEEN if this is even a statement made in truth.

 

"In many cases the strongest and smartest are just as likely to die due to stuff like diseases and their talent/strength is lost because of it."

 

You could literally just point to that and say 'yep, and thats 40K' to question it, is a farce.

 

Either way, I remember now why I was avoiding this forum.

 

Until the setting changes, its GrimDark, as it was intended to be, when/if it gets watered down, I hope you still find joy in it, as I will not.

[DarkChaplain]

You all realize that none of the terraforming business has happened in this novel and we don't even know if it'll be a point in the next Codex, right?

 

It was a simple paragraph at the back of a novel about the Blood Angels nearly getting wiped out, as commentary on how the Imperium has declined and puts up with terrible living conditions when they have the power to improve them.

 

Also calling out Guy Haley for making the call is completely ridiculous, considering that this was almost assuredly in the brief from the editors or a point from upcoming Codex or Campaign material. I doubt he made that point up on the fly to make Sanguinius and his fans weep red tears again.

[Phoebus]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

 

At the risk of being rude, if someone sees an author having a character make an observation as a "slap to the face," they need to re-evaluate their priorities. There is a huge gulf between Roboute Guilliman stating something that is well within the scope of his character, experiences, and belief-set... and changing a faction's fundamental background. Even if the latter WAS Haley's intent, you can practically guarantee that it's not him metaphorically slapping your face but someone from Games Workshop's IP office.

 

Switching to purely personal opinion, I'm wholly opposed to dumbing down characters for the sake of appeasing factional tastes. There is plenty of room for Roboute Guilliman to question the inherently illogical approach of keeping a planet as an irradiated wasteland for the purpose of maintaining a desired state of adversity for Chapter recruitment. There is just as much room for Dante to value that approach. Why? Because he's psychologically and chemically conditioned to adhere to his Chapter's ethos and culture. They  have religious significance to him. Dante giving up the idea of Baal as a crucible upon which Blood Angels are made is about as easy as him deciding that he will, in fact Know Fear. Both are germane to the setting.

 

EDIT: good words, DarkChaplain!

[Blindhamster]

We are in an on going narrative now, this means things will change and evolve.

 

Terraforming Baal could be good for the story/setting. I'm fairly sure the actual world of Baal is remaining a desert world and it's just Baal primus that's supposed to be uplifted.

 

Sanguinius already at least mostly fixed up the world's once anyway right? I'm sure I read that somewhere.

[Ogun]

I think it is also probably worth baring in mind that we are talking about terraforming a radiated hell hole here. Even if the Imperium has access to some tech that speeds up the process, we are talking about a project that will take centuries at a bare minimum. It is probable that the setting will never actually reach the chronological point when Baal is some green and pleasant land. At best, we might see some oases around a few settlements that might sustain a marginally larger population.

 

I like that Haley had Guilliman suggest it, simply because it is completely true to his character. Lets face it, if Guilliman lived in the present, he would be the guy who walked into some dilapidated old cottage filled with creaky antique furniture and go 'what this place needs is some Ikea furniture'.  

[b1soul]

Dante is swayed by Guilliman though...I think that's the source of some BA fans' concern.

 

I am a BA fan by the way. I like the irradiated, post-Apocalyptic hellhole setting of the Baal system. I'm just curious to find out where this goes.

[Marshal Rohr]

Regardless of where the decisions came from, it is the wrong decision that changes a fundamental truth of the setting. If it was Haley trying to push his own narrative or more of this trash narrative from the studio, both are wrong. If it was Guilliman making an observation, fine. I haven’t read the novel, which is why I suggested we take this topic elsewhere.

[Guest]

Enjoyed the book, shame Amit has survived the Heresy :)

[b1soul]

How do you define the "fundamental truth" of the setting? GW/BL can do whatever it wants with its IP.

 

To say that GW/BL is straying from the fundamental truth is almost to imply that some fans, not the actual IP owners, are the guardians of that truth.

 

Perhaps you're simply saying GW's decisions are harming the intellectual/literary merit of the setting. That's very subjective.

 

Or perhaps you're simply saying GW is moving away from certain major themes. That simply means prior "fundamental truths" are being overshadowed by new "fundamental truths".

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm saying that Baal being a death world has been the case since the second edition Codex Angels of Death, the foundational text of the Blood Angels history. 

 

 

 

Space Marine Chapters are shaped not only by the personality of their founding Primarch, and the code to which they adhere. They are shaped also by the worlds from which their warriors are drawn. Few worlds in the entire Imperium could have as devastating an impact on the human soul as Baal, and its inhabited moons Baal Prime and Baal Secundus.

 

Codex Angels of Death, Page 16

 

 

 

Most aspirants bear some marks of their hard lives [...] Many will be marked by lesions and carcinoma

Codex Angels of Death, Page 19

 

 

 

When the aspirants emerge from their sarcophagi, like butterflies emerging from a chrysalis, they will have changed. They will be tall, strong and superhumanly powerful. Their restructured bodies and features will have taken on a beauty tat echoes their angelic forebear.

Codex Angels of Death, Page 19

 

These passages are foundational, because they illustrate the transformational effect of the Blood Angels creation process and how this molds their character as warriors and a chapter. It says as much in the first chapter. I'm not saying they can't do what they want with a story, I'm saying they shouldn't because it fundamentally alters a major draw of the chapter and a historically important part of their character. Again, this isn't a narrative choice that can be justified because it is so much like changing important parts of other canons, like making the North in Game of Thrones a tropical paradise. The north is very much tied to why Ned Stark is such a rigid dude, and by changing the environment in which a character develops you alter the very character themselves. 

 

Edit: I'm also not saying the gamers have some kind of sway over the lore. I'm saying people invest money in chapters based on things they like, and going from rad scarred waster to a beautiful angel is part of the pull for many in choosing Blood Angels. 

[DarkChaplain]

How long has Cadia been the gateway to the Eye of Terror? How long have the Custodes been hidden away in the Imperial Palace and the Sisters of Silence extinct?

 

I mean, Baal almost got exterminated by Tyranids, which as an event has been built up for five years. The Galaxy has inevitably changed, Primarchs are back and the Imperial Fists were extinct to a man recently too. Fenris was almost torn apart, the Planet of Sorcerers is back in realspace, Cypher reached Terra, Abaddon almost caged Terra for good...

 

But some terraforming possibility for the future, something that has been a thing in the background forever, as far back as Caliban getting industrialized, Ullanor being flattened for the triumph, and whatever weird constructs the Imperium is capable of creating, is now a deal breaker in an ongoing narrative where we don't even know if anything will come of it in the first place, taken out of context in a ~400 page novel because nobody wants to read the entire thing and only looks for spoilers? Well, okay.

[caladancid]

How long has Cadia been the gateway to the Eye of Terror? How long have the Custodes been hidden away in the Imperial Palace and the Sisters of Silence extinct?

 

I mean, Baal almost got exterminated by Tyranids, which as an event has been built up for five years. The Galaxy has inevitably changed, Primarchs are back and the Imperial Fists were extinct to a man recently too. Fenris was almost torn apart, the Planet of Sorcerers is back in realspace, Cypher reached Terra, Abaddon almost caged Terra for good...

 

But some terraforming possibility for the future, something that has been a thing in the background forever, as far back as Caliban getting industrialized, Ullanor being flattened for the triumph, and whatever weird constructs the Imperium is capable of creating, is now a deal breaker in an ongoing narrative where we don't even know if anything will come of it in the first place, taken out of context in a ~400 page novel because nobody wants to read the entire thing and only looks for spoilers? Well, okay.

 

Yeah I mean I was just about to write something very similar.

 

I think a few pages back I said people should READ the book instead of just reading a recap.  I will say it again, you should READ the book.

 

If Baal being a wasteland is the only part of the BA lore you care about, then yeah maybe the BA will no longer be your favorite chapter.  

 

If you care about literally ANY other part of what makes the BAs awesome, then this book should make you happy. Even the earlier consternation about the Red Thirst being gone hasn't played out, as the recent spoiler from the upcoming codex show. There are pages and pages in this book describing ancient relics and secrets of the BAs.  Pages and pages showing pageantry and the inner parts of what makes the Chapter and Successors tick.  Until Dante, there was never a BA novel or codex that went into such detail and showed why the BAs seem so different and great.

 

The thing is, if you haven't read the book, it is clear that you haven't read it, because the summaries are clearly just summaries to anyone who did read it.  The discussion about deathworld vs civilized world is great, the strange anger that somehow BAs have lost their identity is entirely unfounded.

[mc warhammer]

look closely at the rain and ice blowing about in the gathering storm ...are they...tiny monkey paws?

[Marshal Rohr]

 

How long has Cadia been the gateway to the Eye of Terror? How long have the Custodes been hidden away in the Imperial Palace and the Sisters of Silence extinct?

 

I mean, Baal almost got exterminated by Tyranids, which as an event has been built up for five years. The Galaxy has inevitably changed, Primarchs are back and the Imperial Fists were extinct to a man recently too. Fenris was almost torn apart, the Planet of Sorcerers is back in realspace, Cypher reached Terra, Abaddon almost caged Terra for good...

 

But some terraforming possibility for the future, something that has been a thing in the background forever, as far back as Caliban getting industrialized, Ullanor being flattened for the triumph, and whatever weird constructs the Imperium is capable of creating, is now a deal breaker in an ongoing narrative where we don't even know if anything will come of it in the first place, taken out of context in a ~400 page novel because nobody wants to read the entire thing and only looks for spoilers? Well, okay.

 

Yeah I mean I was just about to write something very similar.

 

I think a few pages back I said people should READ the book instead of just reading a recap.  I will say it again, you should READ the book.

 

If Baal being a wasteland is the only part of the BA lore you care about, then yeah maybe the BA will no longer be your favorite chapter.  

 

If you care about literally ANY other part of what makes the BAs awesome, then this book should make you happy. Even the earlier consternation about the Red Thirst being gone hasn't played out, as the recent spoiler from the upcoming codex show. There are pages and pages in this book describing ancient relics and secrets of the BAs.  Pages and pages showing pageantry and the inner parts of what makes the Chapter and Successors tick.  Until Dante, there was never a BA novel or codex that went into such detail and showed why the BAs seem so different and great.

 

The thing is, if you haven't read the book, it is clear that you haven't read it, because the summaries are clearly just summaries to anyone who did read it.  The discussion about deathworld vs civilized world is great, the strange anger that somehow BAs have lost their identity is entirely unfounded.

 

 

Which is why I suggested a new topic for that very discussion. 

 

As it stands, its best to just drop it. The lack of merit in this new 40k narrative isnt the point of this thread.