The Devastation of Baal- Discussion

[b1soul]

Yes, I got it but haven't gotten far (what I've read so far is good, but got sidetracked)

[ronin_cse]

Just finished this book and wow was it great. Actually got a little misty eyed near the end when Dante was having his vision which is absolutely not something I expect while reading a 40k book. I have been absolutely thrilled by the story line advancing this past year and this book continues this trend. I HOPE they terraform Baal Primus and turn it into a place someone would want to live as IMO Guilliman is absolutely correct. I am thrilled that this continues the trend of Primaris marines replacing the "old-type" as I can't wait to see the model range continue with more awesome models.

 

Also I really liked how we got a look at the Hive Mind as a character. I especially liked the beginning where we find out it isn't just driven by instinct and is in fact trying to wipe out the Blood Angels and their successors basically for spite. Then that ending battle where Dante starts to succumb to the Black Rage and has visions of the Heresy but fights it off and then fights the Swarmlord...man that was intense. I tend to skim over battle scenes in these books lately but not that one.

 

I was on the edge before but this book has definitely shown me that I need to make a Blood Angels army, just what I needed to get out of my current hobby slump!

 

Oh and are people really complaining about the time thing? Seriously the warp affecting time has been a staple of the setting since like forever, what's the problem here?

[Scribe]

I dont think anyone is complaining, more 'remarking'. Yes Time as a Plaything has been a thing in 40K, nobody is arguing that. This seems like one of. if not the, largest canonical examples of a major faction feeling the effects of the Warp impacting time.

 

Its worth remarking on.

[Reyner]

Would you guys say someone would need to read Dante before getting this book? 

[Guest Anakwanar]

Would you guys say someone would need to read Dante before getting this book? 

It is not nessessary or required. But it will show you some 'insight' into the Dante figure pre-Baal invasion and how BA coup with incoming death.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

Dunno if a SW or a BA necessarily has greater mental fortitude than a UM or a IF.

I see two schools of aspirant recruitment.

Natural training, e.g. death worlds

Structured training programs, e.g. Terran recruitment, Ultramarines

The historical Spartans were of the latter, and they were some of the most mentally tough soldiers ever. They weren't necessarily mentally more frail than people who grew up under terrible, natural circumstances (e.g. child-soldiers in the most impoverished, war-torn, disease-ridden parts of modern Africa).

Extremely harsh environments tend to breed extreme cruelty and a disdain for human life. There is much truth in Guilliman's claim that cruel men make cruel warrior make cruel lords.

Deathworld recruitment is a cultural preference with questionable efficiency.

 

I didn't say that SW and BA had greater mental fortitude than any other chapter. What I am trying to say is that the same level of mental fortitude is needed for an aspirant to be selected to become an Astartes no matter the chapter. I am just pointing out the expediancy of Death World recruitment in already removing the majority of those who would not be mentaly fit to become Astartes through natural selection. Where as on a civilized world that would not be the case leading to a longer recruitment proccess and therefore wasting valuable Astartes time.

Deathworld aspirant trials typically involve a lot of luck...

 

A program can be engineered with greater efficiency to pick out aspirants with certain traits

 

Both approaches have pros and cons, but I see more pros with a structured approach.

 

Also, mental fortitude can be built. Virtues can be taught.

 

A lot of deathworld trials have massive fatality rates. That's a huge waste of potential.

 

EDIT: the Spartan training environment was harsh, yes...but it's nowhere near as over-the-top lethal as the typical 40K deathworld.

 

For all we know, Spartan-like training is probably what the UM implement. I'm pretty sure the Cadians do something very similar.

9 out of 10 men don't make it to the Spartan Army historically

 

A single defeat would cost the Spartans dearly as they can't replenish as fast as other Greek Armies

 

They are embarassingly weak against range units

 

Athenian rowers defeated the Spartans by throwing stuff at them

[Ascanius]

I read Dante in case it was required knowledge.

 

It's not required, but it is beneficial.

[Phoebus]

 

 

 

A program can be engineered with greater efficiency to pick out aspirants with certain traits

 

Both approaches have pros and cons, but I see more pros with a structured approach.

 

Also, mental fortitude can be built. Virtues can be taught.

 

A lot of deathworld trials have massive fatality rates. That's a huge waste of potential.

 

EDIT: the Spartan training environment was harsh, yes...but it's nowhere near as over-the-top lethal as the typical 40K deathworld.

 

For all we know, Spartan-like training is probably what the UM implement. I'm pretty sure the Cadians do something very similar.

 

 

9 out of 10 men don't make it to the Spartan Army historically

 

A single defeat would cost the Spartans dearly as they can't replenish as fast as other Greek Armies

 

They are embarassingly weak against range units

 

Athenian rowers defeated the Spartans by throwing stuff at them

 

First, let's not argue along the lines of inaccurate generalizations.

 

Historically, the majority of children inducted in the Agoge survived to adulthood and enrollment in the lists of citizen-soldiers. Lacedaemon's shortfall was the fact that it was a pyramid society where actual citizens and their families were a minority (perhaps not even a third of the population) dependent on slaves and second-class citizens. Even so, the Spartans were able to field 8-10,000 hoplites - more than any other city-state. Their ability to absorb losses was, by the time of the Peloponnesian War, second only to that of Athens. As time progressed, however, the adoption of foreign concepts such as debt and common currency led to a shrinking of the full citizen class, which in turn led to an increasing reliance on allies of varying quality and dependability.

 

Beyond that, the Spartans' susceptibility to ranged warfare is neither here nor there. Humans cultures that are products of Death Worlds and Feral Worlds are very often technologically and socially backwards and thus susceptible to all sorts of factors outside of the environment they've learned to survive in.

 

The point, to bring this back to the topic at hand, is that Macragge is a controlled experiment. Unlike Death Worlds, where conditions and predators inimical to human life prevail, typically outside of human control, a society like Macragge identifies programs that succeed in producing viable candidates for the Adeptus Astartes. Unless that society is obstinately determined to kill off its potential pool of candidates, the trials they subject them to will not be lethal. Safety, medical care, education, etc., will ensure casualties are far lower than places where the flora, fauna, and/or atmosphere itself can kill you.

[b1soul]

Kinda lost what the current issue is...

 

Are we just establishing that Sparta is closer to Macragge and farther from Baal?

[Marshal Rohr]

Yes

[DogWelder]

I'd imagine Macragge to be a hyper-futuristic version of Athens rather than Sparta going by the description and artwork.

 

 

[TheRealMcCagh]

Is there any actual evidence that a single Spartan hoplite was superior to a single Athenian hoplite? I had always thought the strength of the Spartan military was in it's phalanx formations and discipline of it's soldiers. If that's correct, than using ancient Greece an an example of civilized world or death world is pointless, Sparta wouldn't have had necessarily better aspirants, they just had set up their city state in a way that allowed the Homoioi to be fully committed to military service. The difference between Sparta and and it's rivals would be more akin to the difference in Chapter structure, not necessarily it's recruiting pool.

[Marshal Rohr]

Macragge has always been a space classical world. It’s got elements of everything that was cool about the classical era.

[b1soul]

@TheRealMcCagh

 

"If that's correct, than using ancient Greece an an example of civilized world or death world is pointless."

 

I'm not sure I follow. Spartan training was a rigourous, structured regimen starting from a young age. This would be similar to Astartes recruitment on "civilised" worlds a la Macragge. It would be very hard to argue that Spartan recruitment is similar to deathworld Astartes recruitment...because it simply isn't.

 

I'm not sure how a comparison between Athenians and Spartans nullifies the above?

 

Athenian training didn't start until later in life and relatively less intense...so it wouldn't be a good analogy for any form of Astartes recruitment.

 

As for your question about individual hoplites, around the time of the Persian invasion (Thermopylae), there was no question that Spartans were the most physically fit and disciplined Greek force. That would mean a Spartan individual hoplite was (more likely than not) more disciplined than an Athenian individual hoplite. Group superiority was based on general individual superiority.

 

I have no idea who would win if you told a random Spartan hoplite to duel a random Athenian hoplite, like Achilles vs. Hector...but that's not how classical Greek armies fight.

[TheRealMcCagh]

@TheRealMcCagh

 

"If that's correct, than using ancient Greece an an example of civilized world or death world is pointless."

 

I'm not sure I follow. Spartan training was a rigourous, structured regimen starting from a young age. This would be similar to Astartes recruitment on "civilised" worlds a la Macragge. It would be very hard to argue that Spartan recruitment is similar to deathworld Astartes recruitment...because it simply isn't.

 

I'm not sure how a comparison between Athenians and Spartans nullifies the above?

 

Athenian training didn't start until later in life and relatively less intense...so it wouldn't be a good analogy for any form of Astartes recruitment.

 

As for your question about individual hoplites, around the time of the Persian invasion (Thermopylae), there was no question that Spartans were the most physically fit and disciplined Greek force. That would mean a Spartan individual hoplite was (more likely than not) more disciplined than an Athenian individual hoplite. Group superiority was based on general individual superiority.

 

I have no idea who would win if you told a random Spartan hoplite to duel a random Athenian hoplite, like Achilles vs. Hector...but that's not how classical Greek armies fight.

 

Rereading my post I realize I didn't really frame my point clearly. What I'm trying to say is what separated the Spartan military from other Greek city states happened 'post-recruitment.' Where as the deathworld/civilized world would be 'pre-recruitment.' A class of citizens whose sole responsibility was warfare and didn't need to take care of all the other stuff (because of their disproportionately large helot class) would be a better corollary to the Astartes as a whole. We have no evidence (that I know of) that says the pre-soldier children where better or worse at any greek city state, which is the debate around whether or not a death world is good for a recruiting pool. By the time the aspirants are accepted, it's up to the Chapter to create the culture that made the Spartans such an effective fighting force, not necessarily how hard of a childhood the individuals had. 

 

So, in my opinion, the Spartan's weren't the best military at the time because their children had it the hardest, it was because they had the largest economic class of warriors who could devote every hour of every day to war. But all of the Astartes do that, regardless of recruitment practices. Does that make more sense?

[b1soul]

Spartans were the only Greeks who rigourously trained their male children to become soldiers.

 

Therefore, Spartans would be distinct from, say, Athenians at both the child level and the adult level.

 

Both the training from childhood and the economic support from helots contributed to the superiority of Spartan soldiers.

 

EDIT:

As for Astartes, the recruitment process would also affect the quality of the finished products.

 

With Astartes, it's a bit more complicated though, as recruits don't really receive training that carries over into their career as Astartes. They're being tested for qualities whose true potential could be "unlocked" after becoming Astartes. The physical trials may be just as taxing as, or more taxing than, Spartan training for youngsters...but might be less combat-oriented, as the purpose of Astartes recruitment isn't combat training

[ronin_cse]

So why are we going on a tangent of whether Spartans or Athenians when we can use examples in the actual lore (so yes let's ignore real world examples for made up ones :)  ).

 

Are there any good examples of Space Marines from a relative paradise like Macragge not being able to stand up against SMs from a death world like Baal? Obviously rules wise they are the same but anything in actual stories? If anything it seems like the geneseed itself always tends to be much more important than where the candidate was from, that being the case is there any real benefit that we ever actually see for keeping death worlds as death worlds simply for recruiting purposes? It almost seems more like superstition than anything, something that Guilliman would obviously not want to continue with.

 

Like are Terran Dark Angels worse than Caliban Dark Angels? Were Imperial Fists from Inwit more capable than Emperor's Children from noble Terran families? Certainly never seems that way.

[Scribe]

There isn't going to be any difference.

 

After psycho-indoctrination, genetic modifications, organ implants, steroid injections, and bone hardening...the raw ingredients are likely irrelevant.

 

The in universe reasoning would be that the intangibles that you hear about when watching elite level athletes, are found in the survivors of Death World's.

 

I mean there are even urban myths about today's special forces and the brutal training who's point is to test the mental fortitude of the candidates.

 

That's the logic here. After all is said and done through?

 

Pointless.

[DogWelder]

I suppose an Astartes from a civilized world will be able to interact with mortals and mesh better with the other branches of the Imperial war machine. A better candidate for high-ranking positions like Captain or Chapter Master.

[Scribe]

It completely depends how what version of Astartes you subscribe to.

 

Are they the kind that forget their mortality?

 

Are they the kind that have no recollection of their origin?

 

Have they been mind wiped and rebuilt by their Chapter?

 

--

 

We are talking about kids, taken from their family, subjected to conditions and conditioning which we would call abuse at best, and torture at worst, pushed to the edge in training, and physically crafted to emerge into 'adulthood' firmly post-human. A being who can learn, by eating the flesh of the enemy.

 

How a Marine interacts with humans will depend 100%, on the traits, views, and behaviors of its Chapter and the conditioning they are subjected to, not what world they were kidnapped from.

[b1soul]

Are there any good examples of Space Marines from a relative paradise like Macragge not being able to stand up against SMs from a death world like Baal?

Generally no...

 

There are some super BRUTAL chapters (FW faves like Minotaurs, Carcharadons, Executioners) who are super SAVAGE and thus generally get the better of not-so-savage chapters...but it might not have anything to do with recruitment methods.

 

If anything, being savage after becoming Astartes is what gives them the edge.

[Ascanius]

I would imagine the only real advantage might be in candidates' being more likely to have the fortitude to survive the transformation process.

 

That's speaking in a literary sense, of course. In a scientific sense, growing up in a civilised society with proper nutrition and no exposure to environmental hazards is going to produce healthier organisms that will respond better to training.

 

But if we start getting scientific about Space Marines, we're doomed.

[mc warhammer]

There isn't going to be any difference.

 

After psycho-indoctrination, genetic modifications, organ implants, steroid injections, and bone hardening...the raw ingredients are likely irrelevant.

 

The in universe reasoning would be that the intangibles that you hear about when watching elite level athletes, are found in the survivors of Death World's.

 

I mean there are even urban myths about today's special forces and the brutal training who's point is to test the mental fortitude of the candidates.

 

That's the logic here. After all is said and done through?

 

Pointless.

 

i liked the way watson's space marine addressed this (kinda) with the 3 recruits from different walks of life

[Scribe]

Too far back for me, 1993!

[Phoebus]

DogWelder,

 

The description (training barracks for children and teenagers, academic institutions, great industry) seems to me like a hybrid of the Lacedaemonian (Spartan) Agoge (the program that raised children to become warriors), Roman industry and government, and loosely-tied Hellenistic elements (Great Library, Pharos, etc.).

 

TheRealMcCagh,

 

The phalanx was almost universal in what we consider the classical Greek world (that is, the independent city-states everyone thinks of). The phalanx was the main facet of Greek warfare, with skirmishers (typically, but not always, landless peasants or foreign mercenaries) and cavalry (aristocrats, lacking heavy arms and armor or missile weapons, and few in number) being wholly secondary elements. Spartan equipment didn't differ that much from that of other Greeks. The real difference was in their mindset. Most Greeks combined land ownership with citizenship and thus military obligation as hoplites. Their training didn't start until around the age of majority, though, and outside of actual war their commitment amounted to season training sessions with their fellow citizens. The Spartan hoplite, on the other hand, was indoctrinated from age seven to be a warrior and nothing else. The product of the Agoge was more aggressive, disciplined, and inured against fear than his contemporaries from other city states. Given his constant occupation as a soldier (most other Greeks being farmers who also served as hoplites), it's almost certain that the Spartan was, on average, significantly more physically fit. Until the 4th century BC, Lacedaemon was able to produce enough such hoplites as to be considered the pre-eminent military force in Greece (with perhaps only Athens being able to match their numbers). Epaminondas, the great Theban general, defeated the Spartans and their allies by revolutionizing phalanx tactics and overturning conventional wisdom.

 

All of that is meant to indicate that the difference between the Spartans and other Greeks could be found just as much pre-recruitment one as post-recruitment. The socio-economic model (with twice as many second-class non-citizens and exponentially more slaves) made it possible for Lacedaemon to have 8-10,000 full-time hoplites (at its height of power), but it was the Agoge that was responsible for them being superior to their counterparts from other city-states.

 

ronin_cse,

 

I'm sure there are differences in ability between individual Space Marines, but it would be like comparing a bunch of Olympic sprinters who all finish within a few tenths of a second of each other. To warriors of superhuman caliber, those minute differences can be the difference of life and death, but to mere mortals it's all S4, T4, etc. Outside of Space Marines who are specifically mentioned as being superior in certain ways (e.g., the Sons of Antaeus, who were the result of a specific experiment), I don't see there being a significant difference physical between, e.g., a Space Marine made in Macragge and his counterpart from Cretacia.

 

My personal take?

 

A "Civilized World" approach to developing Aspirants allows for a more controlled experiment, which in turn means you have far less unnecessary mortality involved. That, in turn, means that candidates who don't become Space Marines can still be re-directed to a superior non-Astartes military force (see: Ultramar auxilia, White Consuls auxilia, etc.). Depending on the culture driving this experiment, and the factors implemented, the products may or may not be every bit as aggressive and fearless as the products of Death Worlds and Feral Worlds.